Building a trapeze

[londonsean69]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Well no it's not. The skipper is "at work" and comes under HSE.
If he makes the decision to go then it must be based on sound rules and
guidelines.

The client is his responsibilty. Ok he may just be a taxi driver and state
clearly he is not marshaling the dive, but it is he that makes the
decison to go/not go.

Rules? What rules state when it is too rough? And what guidelines?

A force 6 might be bugger all to some boats, but a death sentence to others, even of equal size, due to hull design, motors etc. Also, if the boat has ladders rather than a lift, picking divers up safely is another factor.

If the skipper says it's borderline, and the divers want to go, what happens if one flies across the deck and has an argument with a twinset? Who's fault then? Who is responsible?

Again, not wanting a ruck but if someone gets on a boat, they understand that it might get hairy. Lets say people have an hour of deco, and during that hour the sea has gone from 2-3 right up to 5's & 6's. This can happen, we all know how fickle the weather can be at sea. The skipper is going to do his best to get everyone home safely, but it only takes one slip. Still his responsibility?

This is why we have coding for vessels, and IIRC, to go more than 20mile offshore you need shelter on the boat.

[Janos]

Originally Posted by londonsean69

What's wrong with that? I know if I have made the effort to get down to the harbour, kit up the boat etc. that it would have to be the skipper that says it is bad for me not to dive. In these instances you rely on the judgement of the skipper. If you can see an 8ft swell and he says it's OK, then you might wanna think about changing skipper.

It's about responsibility. If I book on a boat on my own or a buddy pair then I rely on my judgement. Obviously I listen to the skipper as he has many times more experience than me, but if I feel uncomfortable I won't dive. It took me a long time to learn this.

Originally Posted by londonsean69

There are cautious skippers and nutters.

I think that's Terry's point.

Originally Posted by londonsean69

Sometimes its majority rules. I think at times everyone succombs to peer pressure.

I don't. Not any more. It's never majority rules for me. You dive if you want to but I won't. The problem comes when you have a few divers who think conditions are ok and a few who don't the skipper is then caught between a rock and a hard place. Do they cancel the trip and pee off the people who want to go out, or go out and the people who aren't happy with the conditions have to pay. Or do they end up out of pocket?

I'm happiest with skippers who err on the side of caution, as I find that when I ring round telling people a trip's blown out, they're obviously disappointed that they're not diving, but there's an almost audible sign of relief that they're not diving in that.

When I'm marshalling a trip, taking the decision to cancel is one of the hardest ones to do, so I can empathise a bit with skipper when they do the same. It must be even harder for them though as there is a financial aspect too.

Janos

[londonsean69]

Originally Posted by Janos

It's about responsibility. If I book on a boat on my own or a buddy pair then I rely on my judgement. Obviously I listen to the skipper as he has many times more experience than me, but if I feel uncomfortable I won't dive. It took me a long time to learn this.

I have only ever skipped one dive because I felt uncomfortable, and that was through sea-sickness on a calm day IF I felt conditions were too dangerous I wouldn't dive, but that hasn't happened

Originally Posted by Janos

I don't. Not any more. It's never majority rules for me. You dive if you want to but I won't. The problem comes when you have a few divers who think conditions are ok and a few who don't the skipper is then caught between a rock and a hard place.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I mean't about getting on the boat, not about the dive itself. To dive is your own respnsibility, but in a group you might well feel loyalty towards the others, and as such get on a boat in less than ideal conditions. They may not force you, but inside you don't wanna let down your mates.

BTW - Just HOW far off topic are we now?

[tiewrapdiver]

We are miles off topic but it doesnt matter this thread has been a can of worms from day one.

Theres been some very interesting and useful information on this thread but something that has been clear is that not many people actually know the ins and outs of using deco trapezes. They are mentioned and thats it, so at what point should traps become part of training, should they at all, is this down to the tech agencies? These are the important issues that have been raised in this thread for me.

Tim

[jptaylor9]

Originally Posted by tiewrapdiver

but something that has been clear is that not many people actually know the ins and outs of using deco trapezes.

I've only every used a trapeze on tek dives organised by Jack Ingle. He gives everyone a clear briefing on what to do & most people seem to be able to handle it OK. The key is getting a good briefing on what is expected of you.

Jack's trapeze is a slick operation & there's always an emergency 12L deco bottle on the bar at 9m.

[londonsean69]

Originally Posted by tiewrapdiver

something that has been clear is that not many people actually know the ins and outs of using deco trapezes. They are mentioned and thats it, so at what point should traps become part of training, should they at all, is this down to the tech agencies

IMHO trap's are a regional thing, as has been apparent by some of the posts. Should all tech agencies teach trap use? Not sure. At what point of training? Again, not sure.

I think, that if they are in regular use in your area of diving, then the tech instructors should be talking about their use, as well as using one.

I'm not sure at what level to teach it either, probably would need to be something to do with the hangtimes. You're not gonna bother with a trapeze for a 10 min hang (I see another can of worms), but if you WERE going to use one you would definitely use one for hangs over about 30 Mins, IMO, because then the distances groups of divers can seperate is starting to grow, and makes life difficult for the skipper.

[Mark Powell]

Originally Posted by tiewrapdiver

They are mentioned and thats it, so at what point should traps become part of training, should they at all, is this down to the tech agencies? These are the important issues that have been raised in this thread for me.

Tim

For me I introduce the idea of a trap and the procedures for using one on Deco Procedures and if the dive is suitable we may use one. However it's not often I use one as for deco procedures type diving (45m max) a trap isn't commonly used.

Extended range/Trimix is when I tend to really introduce them. When we do use a trap I make sure everyone understands the procedures and we have a dry run on dry land first.

[londonsean69]

Originally Posted by Mark Powell

we have a dry run on dry land first.

As opposed to a dry run on wet land

[Mark Chase]

[quote=ray]Hi/

Ok I have read the post with interest and it seem to come down to your diving areas, the people who dive down south'ish seem to favor this method.

Its not regional at all. Its all down to dive groups. 95% of my diving is trimix depths with 45min+ deco and I have only used a deco station 6 times. Each group has there own little rules of use so you can never say you know how its done unless your familure with the group.

Pete dives with a group called Delta who are from the north and they deploy a deco station and line off on every dive no matter what. Its just the way they like to dive.

The norm is we do have harsh diving conditions, we have to endure along our coast bad viz, and very strong sometimes unpredictable tides.

Ahhhhhh you must be from Dover then

ATB

Mark Chase