Deco stage set up

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by Janos

You are pulling it from air. There is no evidence to justify your statement in the BSAC incident report. I'll remind you that the statement you're trying to justify is:



I have no idea where you have got this from. The evidence you're presenting is one case where a guy a) forgot to turn his pony on, and b) failed to react calmly in a stressful situation. I can't believe either of these factors were the result of "diving systems/configs/procedures they have designed/developed themselves"

Janos

Janos - You are either intentionally or accidently being very rude ... you are implying I am lying and I don't take that too kindly.

I used that one incident as an illustration of my point ... the guy was not diving a recognised configuration set up in a correct way....ergo he had invented his own system ....whether by choice or accident.

In the 2007 report, two case of divers dying because they penetrated a wreck and ran out of gas .... they had not been appropriately trained to penetrate wrecks so were making up their own procedure for doing this ....either consciously or unconsciously.

Again 2007, two cases where divers were diving as a three, untrained in diving as a three so making up their own procedures.

Again 2007, a rebreather diver diving on his home made rebreather

I could, sadly, go on like this throughout all the reports but still it would not convince you I am sure.....but I would appreciate if you didn't call me a liar again.

This is not an exercise in mathematics, statistics or probability ....it's people's lives.

Mal

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

Janos - You are either intentionally or accidently being very rude ... you are implying I am lying and I don't take that too kindly.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude. I do not think you are lying, and I don't mean to imply you are. I simply think you are wrong.

Originally Posted by Mal

I used that one incident as an illustration of my point ...

The problem is that a) it does not illustrate your point, and b) one example doesn't prove anything. Unless you know how many dives are made with similar set ups (and I think it's thousands, but have no evidence for this) then it's a poor illustration

Originally Posted by Mal

the guy was not diving a recognised configuration set up in a correct way....ergo he had invented his own system ....whether by choice or accident.

What's a recognised system? Recognised by who? What system was he diving? You don't know. Why are you assuming he invented his own system? I just don't understand how you come up with this conclusion.

Originally Posted by Mal

In the 2007 report, two case of divers dying because they penetrated a wreck and ran out of gas .... they had not been appropriately trained to penetrate wrecks so were making up their own procedure for doing this ....either consciously or unconsciously.

Again. How do you know this is the case? Perhaps they did not plan to enter the wreck. You are making assumptions and hypothesising.

Originally Posted by Mal

Again 2007, two cases where divers were diving as a three, untrained in diving as a three so making up their own procedures.

Again. How do you know this is the case?

Originally Posted by Mal

Again 2007, a rebreather diver diving on his home made rebreather

Again. You are making assumptions. It could be that the rebreather was at fault. But how many dives are done on home made rebreathers? You need the denominator, or more evidence.

Originally Posted by Mal

I could, sadly, go on like this throughout all the reports but still it would not convince you I am sure.....but I would appreciate if you didn't call me a liar again.

It does not convince me because my business is evidence. I think carefully before making decisions and I do so based on the facts I have available.

This is not an exercise in mathematics, statistics or probability ....it's people's lives.

It is people's lives, and it's very sad and I feel uncomfortable discussing it. However, sweeping statements like the one you made need to be backed up with something harder than instinct or gut feel.

Once again. I am not calling you a liar. I am challenging you because I think you beliefs, although heartfelt, are wrong. You presented what you consider to be your evidence, but again I am challenging it because I think it is poor evidence and does not back up your point of view. Sadly (or perhaps happily) there is not that much evidence out there. Diving is a safe sport.

Janos

[Garf]

Originally Posted by access

So the support divers are redundancy for redundancy, it's all clear now.

I see redundancy very much like trying to criticise something on YD. Just the right amount, you look quite clever and knowledgeable. A little too much without enough knowledge, and people start to suspect you're a bit of a smartarse with no idea. And then if you just completely overdo it, and have a go at something you really dont have a clue about, or the knowledge to do properly - you just look like a fuckwit.


See what I did there?

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

I used that one incident as an illustration of my point ... 1) the guy was not diving a recognised configuration set up in a correct way....ergo he had invented his own system ....whether by choice or accident.

In the 2007 report, two case of divers dying because they penetrated a wreck and ran out of gas .... they had not been appropriately trained to penetrate wrecks so were making up their own procedure for doing this ....either consciously or unconsciously.

Again 2007, two cases where divers were diving as a three, untrained in diving as a three so making up their own procedures.

Again 2007, a rebreather diver diving on his home made rebreather

I could, sadly, go on like this throughout all the reports but still it would not convince you I am sure.....but I would appreciate if you didn't call me a liar again.

This is not an exercise in mathematics, statistics or probability ....it's people's lives.

Mal

1) How do you know this and by what method are you judging it's recognition?

In the majority of incidents the only people who know the full story are those directly involved, you are wrong to assume/suggest that the answers can be found by following DIR/GUE and that by doing so they can be prevented......sadly human beings are fallible irrespective of their qualifications.

By your definition the ratio deco' procedure is obviously dangerous because DIR people on here have been bent by it, or could it be that the bent divers were just unlucky and in the wrong place at the wrong time ..... like many unfortunates in the reports you have used.

On that subject AFAIC there is nothing you've posted to back up your claim of people dying because of ''diving systems/configs/procedures they have designed/developed themselves" it is more complicated than that simplistic view.

Safe diving,
Steve

[gobfish1]

over the years i have dived one or two dif tank setups .. twins with a pony of o2 in the crack of me twin s, , quad twin 12L and to 7L . or ... side slung never has a problem with what ever set up i dived with ,,, as long as you know what gas you're breathing can turn on or off said cylinder . or have gas you can aford to lose
and still get out of the water with you;re deco done ,,

single tanks and deco dont mix well ,,, you run up some deco get to you;re deco stop lose you're deco gas . and you ant got the back gas to do the deco

pony cylinders with deco gas are crap unless your on 100% o2

if your going to be doing deco dives you need a twin set and a 3l of o2 at the least ... dont for get to leave 90 bar in you;re twin set for when you lose your o2 pony

have fun

[Janos]

Originally Posted by gobfish1

if your going to be doing deco dives you need a twin set and a 3l of o2 at the least ... dont for get to leave 90 bar in you;re twin set for when you lose your o2 pony

Oh come on.

I would quite happily do 5 mins of deco on a single 15 if I was diving with buddy I trusted.

Janos

[gobfish1]

Originally Posted by Janos

Oh come on.

I would quite happily do 5 mins of deco on a single 15 if I was diving with buddy I trusted.

Janos

that s not deco ,, im talking 20mins plus ... if its only 5mind deco you lot want to get a life ,,, not worth even talking about ,,, i would miss 5 mins of deco if i wanted a dump . or some food / drink ....

some of the post on this thread and throwing in dives that are deepish
mals wreck ant in the 5min deco range ,, and the 3 dir not dir lads were in 57m i think ,,,

[Janos]

Originally Posted by gobfish1

that s not deco ,, im talking 20mins plus ... if its only 5mind deco you lot want to get a life ,,, not worth even talking about ,,, i would miss 5 mins of deco if i wanted a dump . or some food / drink ....

some of the post on this thread and throwing in dives that are deepish
mals wreck ant in the 5min deco range ,, and the 3 dir not dir lads were in 57m i think ,,,

Fair dos.

There's deco and there's deco. Problem with t'internet is that you don't know which is which.

Janos

[gobfish1]

Originally Posted by Janos

Fair dos.

There's deco and there's deco. Problem with t'internet is that you don't know which is which.

Janos

wont let me green you m8

but i have to say you're dead right ,

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by Janos

You presented what you consider to be your evidence, but again I am challenging it because I think it is poor evidence and does not back up your point of view. Sadly (or perhaps happily) there is not that much evidence out there. Diving is a safe sport.

Janos

We are, thank heavens, all made differently .... our minds work differently and the way we collect data and make decisions and assessments on that data is different .... Look up Myer Briggs on 'tinternet as a for instance if those differences interest you.

Anyway, there are people who are happy to make judgements on gut feel or experience or intuition .... I am one of those. There are those who require lots of detailed analysis and evidence .... you are one of those I think. So we will have difficulty convincing each other.

That said, I have been around diving and divers long enough to feel confident that the assumptions I made are not too far from reality.

I still stand by what I said.
Mal