Are We Taking It Seriously Enough?

[iainmsmith]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

Listen Markgarf - I'm cheerfully basking in my own self righteousness here - I don't need you chimps digging all my skeletons out of the closet. When I tell people an Ali7 isn't a big enough bottle for Tech1 dives - I'm speaking from experience. Besides I was a bit underweighted and I was having a bad dive. I was still to quote Ahmed Adly: "Godlike and magnificent to behold"

So, "Navigator", where was your calculated 50% deco gas safety margin?

Iain "one light each, one tank, one reg each, no line, which way out???" Smith

[Garf]

Originally Posted by iainmsmith

So, "Navigator", where was your calculated 50% deco gas safety margin?

Iain "one light each, one tank, one reg each, no line, which way out???" Smith

about 5 foot away, pissing himself laughing

[purple vonny]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

But for the record - had I been doing this dive with Garf and Gloc say - we would aim to have done the following in a similar situation:

I don't spell it out like this to rub Si's nose in it or to big GUE up. I'm simply giving you the road map as to how we would deal with this situation so that people can perhaps get some insight as to why I chose to refer to GUE in the original post.

And that is very helpful and educational. HOWEVER... the whole point of that forum is to hear what the poster has learned from diving.

We could all say about every post on there.... "I would not have done that"

This just makes you sound superior, Howard. Your post is educational and interesting but it is not in the spirit of really helping the poster get his story off his chest. He knows he screwed up. That's the whole point of allowing people to use that particular part of the forum.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Paul Evans

Hate to say it but I thought that, to much of a gap before its breathable, if you want to go on something rich, take a 3l of O2 with you for the 6m stop?

Edit

With the 50% as well..................

80% is a better choice than 100% for this dive out of Dover. Its a shot line ascent any you cant guarantee getting to or above 6m for your last stop. You also cant guarantee you will not be thrown around (up and down) like a rag doll on deco.

I did most of my deco at 7-8m due to over crowding on the line.

I have read many threads on DIRX and other DIR posts stating that 100% is a better choice for deco on this sort of depth but in truth it would have been even worse. He stood no chance of getting to 6m fast on the ascent.

Id have gone for 50% on this dive because its flexible on a shot line ascent and id get on it on the bottom, if i had to. I have also done a lot of only slightly deeper dives out of Dover on 32% and 80% for deco.

32 gives me the chance to bailout at max depth and 80s flexible on the shallow stops. The combination of the two will get me out faster than any one on a single gas deco.

Id prefer mix for this dive (I was on 20/25) but if your not qualified your not qualified and at 35m to the deck its hardly pushing the envelope of deep air dives.


ATB

Mark

[GLOC]

Mark, read the edit, he added the 50% in.

[hogen-deifar]

Been quiet on the "serious" threads for a while now for various reasons, but wanted to say something here.

It's all about perception and one person will read a post/thread a totally different way to the way another person reads it AND in a different way to the way it was written.

As a newbee I find the "I learnt about....." section worth it's weight in gold. I don't enjoy reading the stories, because it means someone is hurting mentally or physically because of a "mistake". I've used the section once and I needed it. I needed to talk openly about it and take the criticism. The comments I got in response were similar to the one's Si's received. And not once did I take any of them as a "pat on the back". I saw every single one of them as support from a bunch of very kind people, some of whom have become cracking friends as well as buddies.

I did learn from my mistake and by posting it I was able to get back in the water. If I hadn't I think I'd have given up. But I've started from scratch. Pool sessions every Monday night. Initially just to "breathe" under water and regain the confidence that was lost. And this week Will and I started on my skills. It may sound pathetic to you roughty toughty divers who go deeper than 30m but I took my regs out of my mouth. I remembered all that was taught to me and did it the right way without having to be told. Then I took Will's Octopus and we swam together, in the way I was first trained, to the shallower end of the pool. We then swapped regs, he gave me a thumbs up and high fived me and hugged me. It was a small skill, but I did it with NO fears. We're going on to CESA's and stuff.

Without the section and the support (not pats on the back) I'd probably not have done it. I appreciate I've a long way to go still but Will's a brilliant buddy (and instructor) and he's putting me under no pressure and it's at MY pace. When I'm happy in the pool we'll progress to Vobster and then real OW. The passion for diving has come back with an intensity.

So please don't stop posting on the section if something happens. I suspect Si's posted it to get it off his chest AND to get support and if necessary a telling off. I doubt he's seen any of the comments as praise. But he deserves praise. Yes he messed up, but he remember what MP taught him and that's no mean feat in a panic situation like that. He's very lucky he had buddies with him who could help carry out that training too. Complete hats off to them

I also hear what you're saying, Howard. But remember, we're not all as good at diving as you, and these stories DO help some of us.

Who's right? Who's wrong? In writing these posts, no one is either. Howard made some cracking points, but don't think that we don't learn from that part of the forum. Because SOME of us do. They're not a waste. I've learnt that I am not interested in deep dives. I am happy being a fish botherer and I'm happy to stick to under 20m (when I'm ready, that is!!). Yes I'll do my advanced one day but NOT until the right time. The "I learnt about...." section taught me to go at MY pace, not just to keep up with others.

All of the above is said "IMHO"of course!

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by Paul Evans

Hate to say it but I thought that, to much of a gap before its breathable, if you want to go on something rich, take a 3l of O2 with you for the 6m stop?

Not a good choice for Dover diving mate, it's all return to shot, and if Paul Olivers at 6m [which he usually is] there's no room for anyone else

Safe diving,
Steve

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by GLOC

Mark, read the edit, he added the 50% in.

Yes I got that bit and included in my quoted text but 100% is still a bad choice for this dive.

Perhaps I wasent clear but my point was my preference for single gas deco would have been 50% and two gas deco 32 and 80 not 50 and 100.

I apreciate that your school of diving wont alow the use of 32 and 80 but thats not the point of discussion. 50 and 100 are better for off gassing and 32 and 80 are more suited to the logistical issues surounding a Dover dive.

80 on its own? Bad choice but 100 on its own? worse choice.

50 and 100% OK but make sure you have adequate 50% to allow you to stay deeper than 6m whilst the divers above you clear the line.


ATB


Mark

[GLOC]

Originally Posted by purple vonny

And that is very helpful and educational. HOWEVER... the whole point of that forum is to hear what the poster has learned from diving.

We could all say about every post on there.... "I would not have done that"

This just makes you sound superior, Howard. Your post is educational and interesting but it is not in the spirit of really helping the poster get his story off his chest. He knows he screwed up. That's the whole poing of allowing people to use that particular part of the forum.

You are correct Vonny, the idea is to let those who f*cked up tell their story and what they learned. However, equally as important is for constructive comment be made about what happened and a potentially better way of skinning the said cat so that others can see what could be done to stop the same thing happening again.

I got the idea from Human Factors Open Reporting (HFOR) in the Military Aviation world where the idea is that people admit their failings and say where they went wrong, the incident is then passed up the command chain and the senior officers make comment about what caused the incident, what happened and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. This is then documented and sent out to all of the aircrew so they can see what someone did to make the mistake and what the consequences were. The incidents in the HFOR are Human Factors incidents (the I f*cked up incidents, for whatever reason), these are the same here.

Most people can see what happened but I believe that the comments that have been made have been constructive because they have given advice to someone who might find themselves in a similar incident (apart from your threat of violence to Si Howard ).

In flying, in the event of an incident the first thing is 'fly the aircraft', anything else is secondary because if you don't do that you will potentially hit the ground and die. In diving it is, "do I have a source of gas to breathe?", if the answer is yes, great, stop, think, then act. This is exactly what Simon did. Well done. However, that doesn't mean that what lead up to that event couldn't have been prevented and I won't comment on that. Pretty much everyone knows that now.

Please, do not let the negatives of this thread take away from the main gist of the ILADFT sub-forum which is to allow positive constructive criticism to take place and provide other ways to skin the cat if need be.

Regards

[Clare Gledhill]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

80 on its own? Bad choice but 100 on its own? worse choice.

I'd take 50 per cent for this dive. Too far to get to the 6m gas.

Don't know where you get the O2 as sole deco gas from Mark - GUE don't teach that - especially for this range in the ocean.