Are We Taking It Seriously Enough?

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

This was a tale of total failure to check gas on the bottom phase of a dive like we were all taught at open water.

Not checking the gas is obviously inexcusable, but that's not the bit about it that worries me the most. If you're doing a dive with 40 mins deco, you shouldn't need to check your gas. You should *know* that you've got enough. Being out of the water for a while might put your SAC up a bit, but it's a big jump from having enough gas to cope with some equipment failures to running out of gas on the bottom.

So if it were me, I'd be looking at my gas calculations before I jumped back in the water on a serious dive. And checking just how close to the edge I was pushing it.

Jason

[Mal Bridgeman]

[purple vonny]

Attachment 5307

[hilrosepaul]

Originally Posted by hogen-deifar

Been quiet on the "serious" threads for a while now for various reasons, but wanted to say something here.

It's all about perception and one person will read a post/thread a totally different way to the way another person reads it AND in a different way to the way it was written.

As a newbee I find the "I learnt about....." section worth it's weight in gold. I don't enjoy reading the stories, because it means someone is hurting mentally or physically because of a "mistake". I've used the section once and I needed it. I needed to talk openly about it and take the criticism. The comments I got in response were similar to the one's Si's received. And not once did I take any of them as a "pat on the back". I saw every single one of them as support from a bunch of very kind people, some of whom have become cracking friends as well as buddies.

I did learn from my mistake and by posting it I was able to get back in the water. If I hadn't I think I'd have given up. But I've started from scratch. Pool sessions every Monday night. Initially just to "breathe" under water and regain the confidence that was lost. And this week Will and I started on my skills. It may sound pathetic to you roughty toughty divers who go deeper than 30m but I took my regs out of my mouth. I remembered all that was taught to me and did it the right way without having to be told. Then I took Will's Octopus and we swam together, in the way I was first trained, to the shallower end of the pool. We then swapped regs, he gave me a thumbs up and high fived me and hugged me. It was a small skill, but I did it with NO fears. We're going on to CESA's and stuff.

Without the section and the support (not pats on the back) I'd probably not have done it. I appreciate I've a long way to go still but Will's a brilliant buddy (and instructor) and he's putting me under no pressure and it's at MY pace. When I'm happy in the pool we'll progress to Vobster and then real OW. The passion for diving has come back with an intensity.

So please don't stop posting on the section if something happens. I suspect Si's posted it to get it off his chest AND to get support and if necessary a telling off. I doubt he's seen any of the comments as praise. But he deserves praise. Yes he messed up, but he remember what MP taught him and that's no mean feat in a panic situation like that. He's very lucky he had buddies with him who could help carry out that training too. Complete hats off to them

I also hear what you're saying, Howard. But remember, we're not all as good at diving as you, and these stories DO help some of us.

Who's right? Who's wrong? In writing these posts, no one is either. Howard made some cracking points, but don't think that we don't learn from that part of the forum. Because SOME of us do. They're not a waste. I've learnt that I am not interested in deep dives. I am happy being a fish botherer and I'm happy to stick to under 20m (when I'm ready, that is!!). Yes I'll do my advanced one day but NOT until the right time. The "I learnt about...." section taught me to go at MY pace, not just to keep up with others.

All of the above is said "IMHO"of course!

Hoges - Green incoming

I recently posted about a panicked ascent from 16m in this forum. the response I got was overwhelming and encouraging. There were no condemnations, only support and advice for a newbie diver who cocked up. As a newbie, I thought that was what this forum is for. For a while, I was convinced I would never be a diver as long as I have a hole in my a*se; but after reading posts like Si's and Glocs; I realised I could have had it so much worse and that it is possible to recover from near disaster with the right attitude and training.

These kind of posts turn negative experiences into positive ones.

thanks and BIIIIG respect to anyone brave enough to post their experiences here

[CatB]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

That Si was honest enough to post his warts and all report of the dive in the "What I Learnt About Diving From That" forum is to be applauded and I greened him to say as much. But for me its a sad irony that the thread contains so many "pat on the back" and "don't worry about the bad day at the office" messages because it means that we're all learning "F*ck All About Diving From That". Perhaps this is just a nervous reaction to his candour - but I know that when Garf posted his account of the Markgraf incident - a load of bonhomie was the last thing he was looking for: He wanted people to learn from his experience - trouble is - we don't appear to be learning.

I appreciate the point that Howard was trying to make with his post but Si's original post in 'I learned about diving from that' actually said;

I’m not looking for judgment from all and sundry on what we should or shouldn’t have done in this situation, Until you’re in the situation I don’t know if you can be 100% sure how you would deal with it. I’m just pleased to have come out the other side of it and wanted to post it as a bit of a warning to others in the hope that it might make someone else think things through a bit more before doing the same.

So most people have respected his wishes and simply congratulated his honesty in posting and providing the information that we can learn from or not as we wish. Or they have focussed on the positive of the skills and support from the other people on the dive that did ultimately get him to the surface. This is not 'pat on the back' messages congratulating him for making the mistakes that he openly admits too - neither does it mean that no-one has learned from it.

My club are doing some nice RIB diving this Saturday. I know that I wouldn't be eligible for it because I haven't been in the water since a Red Sea trip in December and I haven't done any UK dives since the autumn. The person running the trip wouldn't be happy dropping me into even a 20m dive without some shore or quarry diving first. Si's post has shown me in rather scary detail why the club insists on this. Sometimes it's those first hand accounts and experiences that lead to guidelines like those in my club that keep other people safe.

[nickb]

Originally Posted by CatB

So most people have respected his wishes and simply congratulated his honesty in posting and providing the information that we can learn from or not as we wish.

Well my view is: as long as we all abide by the rules of a particular forum, all bets are off as soon as you submit your post. After that, you no longer own it and you need to prepare for a landrush.

I've had to go back and re-read that thread, 'cos I couldn't remember seeing anything particularly judgmental nor did I recall any posts congratulating Si for his cock-up. I still couldn't find this stuff.

I've been criticised before now for pointing out that a poster to that forum hadn't seemed to learn anything from their near-disaster. As far as I'm concerned, if it's just a blow-by-blow account of a descent into the incident pit, without coming to any conclusions, it ought to be submitted as a 'Trip Report'.

I still don't know what back gas Si was using; how much of it he started the dive with; at what time he noticed that he had 100 bar remaining and how the fuck he thought he had 40 minutes of deco to do after only 36 minutes at an average depth of 36.5m

I don't know what sort of planning went into his decision to take 80% for deco when his buddy was on 50% or if they even discussed how this mismatch was going to compromise the 'plan'.

My first sea dive this year is more than 3 weeks away, yet my buddy and I were discussing gases yesterday. He's DIR trained and I'm DIR 'friendly'; neither of us use 'standard' gases, but we don't just bowl up with whatever we feel like in our cylinders.

Howard Payne is spot-on for bringing this subject up. The reason people are getting their knickers in a twist is the mention of GUE. If Mark Powell had made the same post, reminding us to take a bit of care about what we're doing, we'd all be standing to attention.

A lot of people don't afford the level of respect they should to this sport and it's an opportune time for that to be discussed.

[dry suit diver]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

I've thought long and hard about posting .

The conclusion that I'm coming to is that GUE really has got it about right. Whether we're DIR or not and without blowing things out of proportion - we need to be practising stuff with our buddies even when it's cold and horrible - we need to be prepared to spend the extra £20 on gas or just say I'll dive a bit less - we need to stay dived up and we need to strive for higher not lower standards.

In short I believe we need to accept that just because the chances of something going wrong are very, very slim - the consequences - not just to us - both immediate and long term are huge and too horrible to consider.

These consequences need to be foremost in our minds in everything we do and we need to accept that we have responsibilities in our diving that extend way beyond ourselves?

Respect to you all

Originally Posted by Odin

Most Rebreather divers practice drills, and then practice, and on just about every dive... practice something.

It is a mind set and training that is important; not your training agency, number of buddies, common kit config, that will help you survive when problems occur.

the two quotes above say it all really.

practice practice practice.

the bit that gets peoples goats up is the inference that GUE is right. there needed to be no mention of the agency in the original post. if it works for you then its right.

we all make mistakes and have misunderstandings luckily most of the time they don't cause major problems

do we learn from these reports , yes some of us do , some of us don't I try to take something from each report in the I learned about diving from ... section

[neilh]

Originally Posted by dry suit diver

the bit that gets peoples goats up is the inference that GUE is right.

Which I find quite sad. So what if Howard is right that GUE have got it about right? So what if GUE have got something right? Is it really so bad if an aspect of DIR actually is a good idea?

At no point in his thread did he say that only GUE had it right. At no point did he say that any other agency had it all wrong. All he says is that the GUE emphasis on practice and responsibility is a good thing and agency aside is something that we should all be looking at.

I happen to agree, but then as a GUE trained diver I'm not expecting that to count for much.

[uwila]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

We simply aren't taking this stuff seriously enough. We need to be diving the safest possible gasses, appropriate deco gasses, executing careful dive and gas planning and routinely training inland so that when we need stuff from the toolbox in a panicked moment - it's just muscle memory.
...
The conclusion that I'm coming to is that GUE really has got it about right. Whether we're DIR or not and without blowing things out of proportion - we need to be practising stuff with our buddies even when it's cold and horrible - we need to be prepared to spend the extra £20 on gas or just say I'll dive a bit less - we need to stay dived up and we need to strive for higher not lower standards.

Whilst I am not GUE trained, and probably won't be, I agree with Howard that we often don't fully appreciate how much danger we put oursleves into when we dive. Others have mentioned the 'comfort zone' and that it's only when we exceed our own that we start to take things seriously. This is a basic human trait - "familiararity breeds contempt". Regular training only makes this contempt more likely, but conversely then equips us to deal with some of the problems that might arise.

It seems to me that Big Si fell into the "it'll be alright on the night" trap, but that he had enough training and "muscle memory" to get out of it. My thanks go to him for reminding us of how quickly things can go wrong.

I don't believe that GUE training changes anything, it merely moves the goalposts. GUE trained divers do so much skills work that they have a much bigger comfort zone than I will ever have and that ultimately there is a tendency for them to go on more difficult dives. Of course, they may well be better placed to avoid problems on the simpler dives, but these don't appear to be the focus of their diving. I have no desire to do the harder stuff because I don't enjoy it. I like simple "ooo - that's a nice fishy" diving. (Apart from ice-diving, which is simple "ooo that's a nice...errr, I don't seem to know what it is" diving )

I don't see any value in posting "what would have happened if I was on that dive" as whilst Howard was posting, he was warm and comfortable in front of a PC and compos mentis - not panicked on a dark, cold dive. Big Si could have easily listed what should have happened, but he posted what actually happened so that we can all see the huge difference between the 2.

It is fundamentally impossible to train for incidents outside of our own comfort zone because the training ends up expanding that very zone! My personal example comes from my gliding - I used to be terrified at the thought of being too far away from the airfield to be able to see it. Last November, I went mountain soaring in NZ and quite happily flew at high speed very close to the mountains in an area 60 miles from the airfield where I couldn't have survived even if I was alive after a crash - it was very remote and cold, so I would have quite likely died waiting for a rescuer. A much better pilot than me did exactly this 10 days after I left. A standard bimble around Hampshire now appears to me to be 'danger free'. It isn't.

So, my conclusion is that advanced training only helps if you avoid advanced diving. I would agree with Howard that incidents can be avoided, but only in the case where the training is way beyond the level of difficulty attempted. But we humans are not like that - we keep pushing oursleves. The 'my training would have saved me' argument doesn't hold water because the incident that hits the "better trained" diver is just more complex.

Cheers, Chris

PS I use the phrase "better trained" to represent what I think Howard was hinting at because I can't think of a more specific one and not because I am suggesting arrogance on the part of GUE divers.

[A. Berk]

Originally Posted by purple vonny

This just makes you sound superior, Howard. Your post is educational and interesting but it is not in the spirit of really helping the poster get his story off his chest. He knows he screwed up. That's the whole point of allowing people to use that particular part of the forum.

Si did get it off his chest, so now its school-time and Howard is 100% correct in what he says as far as I am concerned. Open your text books and find out how a diver managed to get his gas consumption 50% wrong. Ask why he committed to a 40 minute deco dive when nowhere near 'dived-up' (ask his buddies too). There was a fcuk-up and thankfully no-one was lost however the legitimate question remains; Are you taking this diving mullarky seriously enough?

Berko - going back to retirement now... after greening Howard