Are We Taking It Seriously Enough?

[Howard Payne]

I've thought long and hard about posting this - I know it's going to attract a fair amount of flak - but please accept that my intentions are good and I post it for the right reasons.

I love diving and I love divers - by which I mean that I invariably get on well with people who participate in this sport. Regardless of how we dive and / or how we've been trained - it's very rare that I meet a diver who I don't consider a kindred spirit and care about. Somehow, what draws us to the sport in the first place - draws us together.

I'm really anxious that this doesn't develop into an agency bashing / rivalry thread as well although I cannot have the discussion without drawing that into it and making comparisons.

We nearly lost a well loved and well known member of our community on Monday. It strikes me that Big Si came about as close as you can to dying doing what we all love. Were it not for Jay's actions, we'd be posting an obituary and mourning our loss. Likewise with Adrian adrift in the middle of the busiest shipping lane in the world - we could have had a double catastrophe.

That Si was honest enough to post his warts and all report of the dive in the "What I Learnt About Diving From That" forum is to be applauded and I greened him to say as much. But for me its a sad irony that the thread contains so many "pat on the back" and "don't worry about the bad day at the office" messages because it means that we're all learning "F*ck All About Diving From That". Perhaps this is just a nervous reaction to his candour - but I know that when Garf posted his account of the Markgraf incident - a load of bonhomie was the last thing he was looking for: He wanted people to learn from his experience - trouble is - we don't appear to be learning.

This is on top of the avoidable fatality on the Ronda a few weeks ago and the coroner reporting this week that Mike Marsh's blameless incident from a couple of years back was caused by the diver leaving his isolator shut and running out of gas.

We simply aren't taking this stuff seriously enough. We need to be diving the safest possible gasses, appropriate deco gasses, executing careful dive and gas planning and routinely training inland so that when we need stuff from the toolbox in a panicked moment - it's just muscle memory.

Its not good enough to say - I'm responsible for me and me only. We endanger the lives of our dive buddies, our rescuers and the people who try to recover the bodies. The psychological knock on effects to those on the boat at the time, our relatives, loved ones and friends plus the wider dive community like YD mean we aren't just responsible for ourselves - whatever we may think.

I know from conversations that I had with my sadly deceased friend Richard Green about the fatality on his trip to Malin last year - he was deeply affected by the incident for many months afterwards - considering could he have done more, was he in some way to blame? - even though he was barely involved.

Paul Oliver who works bloody hard without much thanks organising loads of affordable great diving out of Dover could just as easily have found himself in the same position.

It's not much of a secret that all my own tech training is with GUE and over the last few years I've endured a fair amount of abuse from you lot for it There have been times when I've even questioned whether the lengths we have to go to and the toughness of the standards and the training aren't overkill? I'm not naturally that cautious and even now I'm known for pushing limits and the odd dive beyond my certs before anyone accuses me of being holier than thou.

The conclusion that I'm coming to is that GUE really has got it about right. Whether we're DIR or not and without blowing things out of proportion - we need to be practising stuff with our buddies even when it's cold and horrible - we need to be prepared to spend the extra £20 on gas or just say I'll dive a bit less - we need to stay dived up and we need to strive for higher not lower standards.

In short I believe we need to accept that just because the chances of something going wrong are very, very slim - the consequences - not just to us - both immediate and long term are huge and too horrible to consider.

These consequences need to be foremost in our minds in everything we do and we need to accept that we have responsibilities in our diving that extend way beyond ourselves?

Respect to you all

[BigHairyAl]

Don't make too big a noise or the HSE will step in and force you all to remortgage and spend 4 weeks at Fort Billy!

[thehappychappy]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

.....snip..... we need to be practising stuff with our buddies even when it's cold and horrible - we need to be prepared to spend the extra £20 on gas or just say I'll dive a bit less - we need to stay dived up and we need to strive for higher not lower standards.

In short I believe we need to accept that just because the chances of something going wrong are very, very slim - the consequences - not just to us - both immediate and long term are huge and too horrible to consider.

These consequences need to be foremost in our minds in everything we do and we need to accept that we have responsibilities in our diving that extend way beyond ourselves?

Howard, forget the Agency statement. Having only done one a handful of decompression dives myself I agree wholeheartidly with the general statement I have quoted from your post.

I am green having only been in the water this year maybe three times, I personally wouldnt dream of doing anything other than a shallow shore dive or two until I get my own comfort level back, it takes me a while to prepare mentally even for a 30 metre non deco dive, thats still a risky dive to me. (230 odd dives in)

Some of you more experienced guys are probably laughing at that statement but to be honest I I am happy with my own approach.

I have been below 40 metres maybe 6 times in total and never once below 50.

Practice, make use of pools and confined water sites, your life is more important than any bit of spidge.

Davie

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

....
I love diving and I love divers - by which I mean that I invariably get on well with people who participate in this sport. Regardless of how we dive and / or how we've been trained - it's very rare that I meet a diver who I don't consider a kindred spirit and care about. Somehow, what draws us to the sport in the first place - draws us together.
.....

I have to say that is not my experience. Diving is a hobby, a pastime, nothing more. Lots of people from different backgrounds do it and within that very different group you will find some that share your view it is a serious undertaking and others that don't give a monkeys.

I've seen folk dive when pissed from the night before (then chuck through the reg while down there). I've dived with a friend that only manages to avoid buddy separation on every other dive. I've dived with a guy who's regs free flowed three times on the dive and told me afterwards "they always do that, perhaps I should get them serviced".

I honestly think people join self-selecting groups. Those that are perhaps a little "anal" perhaps about safety protocols will end up in the likes of the DIR group and strengthen each other's viewpoint. Its a psychological phenomena known as cognitive dissonance IIRC.

Diving is a safe hobby. Those of us that push our personal boundaries take it seriously enough. I hear what you are saying but I think you are missing the point a bit.

It most certainly is not about training backgrounds or agencies, all of them preach safety. Sadly, some instructors fall very short of their agencies' aspirations. Some divers too are a little blasé about risk.

In the final analysis look at how many people smoke. You smoke, so you stink, you get smoking related diseases and you die prematurely. You pay a fiver a pack for the privilege. Humans are not intelligent animals, nor do they consider fully the consequences of their actions. Only frustration lays at the end of the path you are embarking upon Howard, sorry mate.

Chris

[Diving Dude]

...

[TerryH]

We have as a club just done our first UK sea dive. Dispite being off a really
good hardboat with all those lovely wrecks off Weymouth, the weekend
was capped at 20m max.

Before that we'd done several days out at Horsea and Vobster, doing drills
and training. Dispite diving every weekend, I seriously doubt I'll get to
35m/40m before June.

Cautious? Maybe, but then I've got 11 others on every boat who i'd like to
be there when I return from the dive and this gradual build up is IMO one
of the best ways to remain safe.

Whether you do GUE training, workup dives with a PADI crew or are in a
BSAC club, all that matters is that you carefully consider each dive as a
seperate entity and dont get sucked up in the excitement surrounding it.

You always need to consider if you are ready. Always.

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

I've thought long and hard about posting this - I know it's going to attract a fair amount of flak - but please accept that my intentions are good and I post it for the right reasons.

I love diving and I love divers - by which I mean that I invariably get on well with people who participate in this sport. Regardless of how we dive and / or how we've been trained - it's very rare that I meet a diver who I don't consider a kindred spirit and care about. Somehow, what draws us to the sport in the first place - draws us together.

I'm really anxious that this doesn't develop into an agency bashing / rivalry thread as well although I cannot have the discussion without drawing that into it and making comparisons.

We nearly lost a well loved and well known member of our community on Monday. It strikes me that Big Si came about as close as you can to dying doing what we all love. Were it not for Jay's actions, we'd be posting an obituary and mourning our loss. Likewise with Adrian adrift in the middle of the busiest shipping lane in the world - we could have had a double catastrophe.

That Si was honest enough to post his warts and all report of the dive in the "What I Learnt About Diving From That" forum is to be applauded and I greened him to say as much. But for me its a sad irony that the thread contains so many "pat on the back" and "don't worry about the bad day at the office" messages because it means that we're all learning "F*ck All About Diving From That". Perhaps this is just a nervous reaction to his candour - but I know that when Garf posted his account of the Markgraf incident - a load of bonhomie was the last thing he was looking for: He wanted people to learn from his experience - trouble is - we don't appear to be learning.

This is on top of the avoidable fatality on the Ronda a few weeks ago and the coroner reporting this week that Mike Marsh's blameless incident from a couple of years back was caused by the diver leaving his isolator shut and running out of gas.

We simply aren't taking this stuff seriously enough. We need to be diving the safest possible gasses, appropriate deco gasses, executing careful dive and gas planning and routinely training inland so that when we need stuff from the toolbox in a panicked moment - it's just muscle memory.

Its not good enough to say - I'm responsible for me and me only. We endanger the lives of our dive buddies, our rescuers and the people who try to recover the bodies. The psychological knock on effects to those on the boat at the time, our relatives, loved ones and friends plus the wider dive community like YD mean we aren't just responsible for ourselves - whatever we may think.

I know from conversations that I had with my sadly deceased friend Richard Green about the fatality on his trip to Malin last year - he was deeply affected by the incident for many months afterwards - considering could he have done more, was he in some way to blame? - even though he was barely involved.

Paul Oliver who works bloody hard without much thanks organising loads of affordable great diving out of Dover could just as easily have found himself in the same position.

It's not much of a secret that all my own tech training is with GUE and over the last few years I've endured a fair amount of abuse from you lot for it There have been times when I've even questioned whether the lengths we have to go to and the toughness of the standards and the training aren't overkill? I'm not naturally that cautious and even now I'm known for pushing limits and the odd dive beyond my certs before anyone accuses me of being holier than thou.

The conclusion that I'm coming to is that GUE really has got it about right. Whether we're DIR or not and without blowing things out of proportion - we need to be practising stuff with our buddies even when it's cold and horrible - we need to be prepared to spend the extra £20 on gas or just say I'll dive a bit less - we need to stay dived up and we need to strive for higher not lower standards.

In short I believe we need to accept that just because the chances of something going wrong are very, very slim - the consequences - not just to us - both immediate and long term are huge and too horrible to consider.

These consequences need to be foremost in our minds in everything we do and we need to accept that we have responsibilities in our diving that extend way beyond ourselves?

Respect to you all

You raise some good points although I'm not sure that the day after is the appropriate time really. I disagree with the bold statement above though, the replies you read are acknowledging the fact that Si probably doesn't need reminding of how close he came or to try and apportion any blame for any omitted actions. I seriously doubt that Si is looking for bonhomie either, and AFAIC there is plenty for folk to learn from in there already.

ATEOTD we can only do so much training and hope we are able to use it if required, we all learn in different ways and from different experiences, on Garf and JW's incident on the Markgraf I was lost in the same wreck for just under 5 mins and solo, it was the worst 5 mins I have ever spent underwater, luckily I managed to keep calm and together and get myself out of danger, no amout of training could have prepared me for that, it taught me above all else that if in doubt, line out.

I hope that any further replies to this thread remain respectful and aware of the fact that we don't have a right to make a guy who's had a knock feel any worse.

Safe diving,
Steve

[Janos]

I think the internet generally is too relaxed about diving below 30m-35m. Reading YD or other forums you might think that it's a common occurance, whereas actually it's relatively rare.

Are we taking it seriously enough? Complacancy kills that's for sure and perhaps I'm too blase about 40m diving.

Janos

[gerbil]

I for one read the threads such as si with the hope that i will learn something and from many such threads as you say the lesson learnt is that skills and drills need to be practised and practised (and then practised a bit more). Often the most telling comment is when someone talks about putting in to practice a drill for real - its then that that practice has payed off (a contributing factor as to why they are there to give the report).

When the crap happens we, at what ever level/type/agency we dive, will find our selves in one of the most hostile environment for an air breathing mammal (dolphins excluded) you can find.

I understand what your saying but i do think that the majority - despite the joshing - do take note when some one they know (even virtually) shares their experience. Many people will adjust their own skills training (which ever agency) by increments with each incident they read about. Some will even quit. I think/hope that after the first rush of entry level recreational diving that many people who go on to do UK diving will seek to increase their training/skills but its a process not something that happens in one go.

[Odin]

Not agency bashing...but...

Most Rebreather divers practice drills, and then practice, and on just about every dive... practice something.

It is a mind set and training that is important; not your training agency, number of buddies, common kit config, that will help you survive when problems occur.