Shutdowns on twins.

[Ben Harris]

<font color='#FF00FF'>Looping a hose around your neck...

sorry to coin a phase but it aint rocket science.

people have been using 7 foot hoses for donkey years, fair enough maybe on the secondary first stage but..

If i loop mine in a novel way can i call in the benarthian loop.

Now theres an idea.

Sorry, am only winding u up. wrapping it around your necks a fantastic idea (must admit do it myself) and someone had to come up with it. Fair does to the fella.. &nbsp;

Must stop drinking stella while posting , god dam wife beating juice, good job im not married!!!!!!!

[Steve S]

<font color='#000080'>diving IMO is a constant learning curve, why so many threads turn into dir bashing in my experience is that dir followers will not take on board advice or opinions other than what their leaders proscribe, this to me is arrogance, as is the assumption that everyone else does it wrong.

Safe diving,
Steve.

[Mark Chase]

<font color='#000F22'>A couple of points:

I dont dislike or wish to slate DIR as a whole. I think it is a damed fine system with loads of very good ideas and one of the only systems with extrem diving situations considered. It has a few ideas I dont like thats all.

I do very much dislike the We Are Right (WAR) attitude of its dedicated folowers but thats another issue. &nbsp;

OK that said a couple of technical points:

100% for deco can be a masive jump from back gas and O2 spikes become an issue.

100% is 1.6 at 6m which is where most stops are carried out in the UK. Thats right on the limit and a accidental drop to 7m during a long hang will put your PP02 up to 1.7

For example

32% nitrox dive to 35m pp1.44 for 60mins bottom time

100% on the 15min 6mstop would give you a CNS of 74%

Accidently doing half of the stops at 7m would give you a CNS of 124% (thats not good)

I have done some deco and I can tell you holding 6m in a force five is NOT easy especialy if the current is running like a train and you have to come up and hold on tight to the shot.

And who does 60min bottom times on 35m dives errrrr me

80% is therefore more flexable and has a greater safety margin than 100%

and it adds &nbsp;errr 4 mins to the above deco profile with a finishing CNS of 56% and if you accidently do 7min of deco at 7m your cns will be 57%

Is it just me who thinks this is safer?? A CNS hit is the single most scary thing in diving IMHO. No warning and it invariably kills you.

As for 'Proper' deep dives I wouldent know I have only been to 70m and then only twice most of my long deco stuff is in the 40 -60m range. However when I read up on the deco profiles on some of the 100+m dives they are running 02 profiles that would kill a normal saterday diver in an instant. 1000% CNS not being uncommon.

But my kids wouldent like it if I didnt come home so I dont do that sort of thing.

There is nouthing wrong with set gas mix. I just dont like it coz it takes an element of the fun away. I like to plan the dive and the deco and dive the most eficient profile within a personaly defined saftey margin. I LIKE doing this and love spending hours messing arround with profiles and mixes to get the job done.

That said The set gas, set deco, system is easy to remember thus doing away with tables and adding redundancy so its not all bad and it's only back gas I object to not deco gas which I invariably dive 50% 80% or 32% 80% on deeper dives.


So there are my reasions for not being DIR on those issues. I am NOT saying my way is the only way its just My way. The trouble with DIR is the insistace that all other methods are either wrong or very wong. If they just said we prefer to do it this way they would get a lot less flack.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Ben Harris]

<font color='#FF00FF'>Fair points Mark,

Would argue the toss on the 100% but the rest fair nuff. If u plan your dive and dive your plan, cns limits shouldnt be a problem. 1.6 on 100% in reality isnt a problem. Im told ytour very unlikely to get a o2 hit at 6m. As for the 1.6 thing, yes its the limit but its not the hard and fast rule, again even in a rotton sea condition you can push an extra couple of metres past the 6m mark for v. short periods in an emergency. The threat is extended at depth.

However im sure anybody can get a hit at any depth given certain circumstances.......

If i remember the navy dives to a 2. something po2. Fair enough there fit, etc...

the other reason for using 100 over 80 is that surely even a chimp can put 100 from one j to a cylinder and not piss it up. Where as your local dive shop monkey can easily fuck up mixing, fair enough you check all mixes, but....

Im not Dir bashing per se.......... I have alot of respect for the KKK divers, they are v. &nbsp;v. &nbsp;goood at a very hard side of the sport but I have to agree with steve, &nbsp;I hate anyone ramming something down my throat, and arrogantly saying im wrong and unsafe. I consider myself a self diver, although its a risky sport I seek to minimise the risk by training hard, diving every weekend, planning diving, using safe mixes and having a good, trustworthy dive team whilst being totaly self suficient and happy solo diving.

I consider myself a total novice, and Im learning all the time. I enjoy diving with everyone and pick up good bits of info from everyone I meet from all angles of the sports. And as they say the day you get complacent or stop learning is the day it bites you on the arse.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Ben @ May 09 2003,21:43)]the other reason for using 100 over 80 is that surely even a chimp can put 100 from one j to a cylinder and not piss it up. Where as your local dive shop monkey can easily fuck up mixing, fair enough you check all mixes, but....

And weirdly, 100% does not count as nitrox so no card, no gas checking etc ... &nbsp;go figure!

[Andy Phillips]

Hey Ben,

I just want to add my bit about 100% for deco, I am with Mark on this, I know we have dived together a few times but we have come to the same conclusion seperately. The final straw for me was the last guy to die on open circuit had just switched to 100% at 6M, from what I have heard he was pushing his CNS limits, but even so, if he had been on 80~85% he just would not have had the problem, and he is now dead. It just seems to big a risk for 5 minutes of my life.

Think about it. Do you really want to die just to save yourself a few minutes,I sure as hell do not.

Andrew

[And]

<font color='#0000FF'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Steve S @ May 09 2003,19:40)]diving IMO is a constant learning curve, why so many threads turn into dir bashing in my experience is that dir followers will not take on board advice or opinions other than what their leaders proscribe, this to me is arrogance, as is the assumption that everyone else does it wrong.

Safe diving,
Steve.

Hi

I could have quoted a few more bits of threads but this one seems suitable.

At no time during the thread did I say anyone was unsafe or 'wrong'. I believe that everyone who contributed to the thread is a safe diver as am I.

As I recall I stated a way of doing a valve drill and then was told I was wrong and asked to justify it which I did down to the little detail of clipping off a reg. Thats the good bit about DIR. When somebody says why? there is a sensible answer. You might not like it but its an answer. If we choose to disagree then we do that as individuals as did Gav and I but not organisations or rival gangs !

You were the guys who started seeing who could put the most swearwords in a thread (Ben) You were the guys who started calling people unsafe and refusing to dive with them (Ben) and you are the guys 'ramming' stuff down peoples neck by using words like arrogance and making gross generalisations about individuals like me when few of you actually know me (yet )

I am an individual, and I am capable of making my own decisions. I have chosen to dive using a system which has been proven to work for the type of diving I want to do. Surely I am allowed to make that decision and offer my opinion without namecalling and swearing.

Kindest Regards

WL

PS And it was you guys who started using the 'stroke' word !

[Doug Parker]

Of course you are, you tosser . I clip mine off when it's not in my gob. I do what i want and sod everyone else. &nbsp;I've got a sensible answer for everything i do as well. &nbsp;I dive with a couple of DIRers, they slag me, i slag them. I won't dive with ginger people, you have to draw the line somewhere.

[Doug Parker]

I can reach the reg with my gob when it's clipped off and if you pull it the reg will come away anyway.

[Gavin Yates]

<font color='#000F22'> You will all be assimilated