Tec Rec or I.A.N.T.D etc

[Lou]

Ok.....now just so we are clear, this isn't anti-DIR, this is in response to the post above

So anyone who hasn't been on the GUE course flutter kicks? And tilts badly in the water?  
I have to say that whilst I am sure I don't do it great, I do the whole bent leg frog-kick thing.  I haven't fluttered for ages, just because I found flutter-kicking tiring and uncomfortable.  I can manage a pretty motionless horizontal hover too, although I do have to waggle my fins to stop rolling - I think that is exacerbated by the single tank effect?  None of this was GUE taught, it was just practising and learning to be comfy in the water through actually diving!  Not much else to do in Stoney through the winter.

And you have brought up my favourite question too......why do heavy Jetfins cause a different effect to ankle-weights and lighter fins?  If I draw the force diagram for those two configs they are remarkably similar!  

Regards

Lou

[And]

<font color='#0000FF'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Lou @ June 02 2003,16:00)]Ok.....now just so we are clear, this isn't anti-DIR, this is in response to the post above

So anyone who hasn't been on the GUE course flutter kicks? And tilts badly in the water?  
I have to say that whilst I am sure I don't do it great, I do the whole bent leg frog-kick thing.  I haven't fluttered for ages, just because I found flutter-kicking tiring and uncomfortable.  I can manage a pretty motionless horizontal hover too, although I do have to waggle my fins to stop rolling - I think that is exacerbated by the single tank effect?  None of this was GUE taught, it was just practising and learning to be comfy in the water through actually diving!  Not much else to do in Stoney through the winter.

And you have brought up my favourite question too......why do heavy Jetfins cause a different effect to ankle-weights and lighter fins?  If I draw the force diagram for those two configs they are remarkably similar!  

Regards

Lou

Hi

No Lou, I was generalising on what I see most of the time, and I did not mean to insult anybody. I know you are not DIR bashing, never seen you do any of that so it would be out of character wunnit I have a new hat (or set of leaves!) and am trying to be more polite. So here goes!

I did the frogkick pretty much exclusively from the start because I saw a dive guide do it in the red sea and thought it looked cool. But when I saw myself on video I was not horizontal. I dropped my knees just the same as a flutter kick 'humping the dog' was the choice phrase used! For all I knew I was horizontal with perfect trim, until I saw the video and it was pointed out in front of all my peers. This was the same for EVERYBODY, 12 divers from all different backgrounds. The main difference was arching the back and bending knees at 90 degrees clenching buttocks at the same time to keep the knees up (kama sutra for divers anyone?). I've only seen DIR divers do that or talk about it. If I have over generalised I apologise.

I have recently added a stage cylinder and argon to my kit and am having to learn this all over again so its a topic of great interest to me. Until I can learn to adapt my position for the difference in weight distribution every change to my kit alters my trim. I assume thats the same for all divers.

Ankle weights: They can come loose and fall off. If your knees are bent at 90 degrees they might slip down your leg therefore changing the weight distribution. You have to walk to the entry point with them. They can tangle, collect kelp, weed, whatever. They can also restrict circulation. Jet fins are stiff enough to provide the (allegedly) most efficient frog kick and to do back kicks ( I have tried doing back kicks with other fins and it is much harder) etc. and are better(open to debate?) than lighter fins which may provide less force in the water. In essence you are right, both methods can produce a similar result but why wear fins and ankle weights when the jetfins will suffice (and they're only £59) ?

Hope that Helps

WL

[Lou]

Actually, WL, I tried the buttock clenching thing after reading it on you write-up. &nbsp;I could feel it make a difference and now i do it when I remember.....

I know what you are saying, and I am sure that I would be horrified to see myself on video but I do always try to keep my feet above me with legs at 90 degrees etc, because I am paranoid about killing something with them!

As for the ankle weights.....I can't say if Jetfins are any good as fins, I've always been a little sceptical of them personally but have never tried them. &nbsp;It was just the fact that it is encouraged to use the weight of fins to correct trim, but ankle weights are decried as evil
&nbsp; by all and sundry! &nbsp;

I wear them, but for me it helps my tirm (I think...one day I'll try without) but it also takes 2kg off a heavy weightbelt.

I would be interested in doing a course like the DIR-F to have these different views on skills taught and debated, but a) they wouldn't have me and b) I don't believe in the &quot;whole&quot; message so I think I would find it strained.

Personally I am looking at the TDI route as it seems to be broken down into manageable chunks tat tie in with how I would see my diving progressing and with breaks where I would just dive and get experience.

Lou

[And]

<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

When you go the BP wing setup you will be able to lose some of that weight. You can get almost 6kg off with a Backplate and weighted Single Tank Adaptor. If you went twin 7's (300 Bar) you might not even need any weight!

Regarding courses then you could always ask your TDI instructor if they have video available and whether they can work on your trim or whether they can address it in the course. In my experience all instructors from GUE, TDI, BSAC whatever are friendly, approachable and will help you with any concerns you have (and I've done lots of courses ) whether its in the curriculum or not.

Kindest Regards

WL

[steve-k]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] by wl
GUE teach that the back is arched, head resting against the valves, and a frog kick used with bent knees therefore producing a kick which thrusts horizontally. By changing the angle of your shins (which have the benefit of heavy Jet fins

hehe this is how i dive (using force finns) and i allways thaught i was the odd one out, just dived how i found right,

but i do find that on the surface, swimming/snorkaling that it becomes uncomftable, and that you keep breaking the surface with your finns, have i got this part wronge?

[And]

<font color='#0000FF'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (steve-k @ June 02 2003,19:12)]
hehe this is how i dive (using force finns) and i allways thaught i was the odd one out, just dived how i found right,

but i do find that on the surface, swimming/snorkaling that it becomes uncomftable, and that you keep breaking the surface with your finns, have i got this part wronge?

Hi

Not at all, in fact using Force Fins by flapping them in the air is probably quicker than using them in the water ROFLMAO

WL

[steve-k]

lol

only ever used force finns, bought them doing my ow and had them ever since, the ease of getting them on and off and getting back on a hardboat ladder makes up for a lot,
i keep saying i will have to try some other type, just to compair


first time i used them was the first time i had a drysute on, on my first ow dive, and i actually went backwards when i finned ROFLMAO

[Andy Phillips]

Hi,

Just got to add a bit. Most decent &quot;tech&quot; instructors advocate a horizontal position, for the most part it was explained to me, because a) this is better for decompression and b) in the case of an emergency it makes the process infinatly more convenient. A seminal moment for me was learning to clear my mask with out actually tilting my head.

I know the DIR position, but, for those of us with slightly dodgy backs, it puts a lot of strain in the wrong place (still diving with Mark half the bleeding time is spent trying to find his next dinner so we rarely look up). If the tanks are in the correct position, you can acheive a fairly look forward atitude without a bent spine. WL. this is not a DIR bash, just a fact of life.

Lou, if you move to twins n wings you will find the rolling issue disappears on its own. You live pretty close to the guy who has been teaching me and I can put you in touch with him if you like.

Andrew

[Dr Stevil]

<font color='#0000FF'>Disclaimer: this is not an anti-DIR bash etc etc etc

Right, arched back, I'm assuming you mean more-so than the natural curvature of the spine? that sounds decidedly uncomfortable to me and to adopt that throughout an hour long dive sounds quite painful.

I won't go into the type of fins thing 'cos I use split fins and I know you boys don't like them, moving swiftly on...

Motionless hover, yes was taught that on BSAC Adv Nitrox, several guys failed because they couldn't manage that.
However TDI teach you to use small gentle movements during deco in order to facilitate better blood circulation and, consequently, off-gassing, which makes better scientific sense.

Interesting to know GUE use filming in training, would make for some great &quot;You've been framed &quot; sessions I guess. Mind, now I understand why you frequently comment on what you feel &quot;looks cool&quot;. &nbsp;As Al Pacino says in Devils Advocate &quot;Vanity, definately my favourite sin.&quot;

BTW WL, whatever other views I might have re your posts, I have never found them impolite so don't worry too much about your &quot;new set of leaves&quot;, &nbsp;although you do realise that all this talk of &quot;looking cool&quot; will be the subject of some interest and scrutiny when you come to do the Tyne wrecks, hope you don't suffer from stage-fright &nbsp; &nbsp;

Chee-az
Steve

[And]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Steve W @ June 03 2003,16:27)]Right, arched back, I'm assuming you mean more-so than the natural curvature of the spine? that sounds decidedly uncomfortable to me and to adopt that throughout an hour long dive sounds quite painful.

BTW WL, whatever other views I might have re your posts, I have never found them impolite so don't worry too much about your &quot;new set of leaves&quot;,  although you do realise that all this talk of &quot;looking cool&quot; will be the subject of some interest and scrutiny when you come to do the Tyne wrecks, hope you don't suffer from stage-fright    

Chee-az
Steve

<font color='#0000FF'>Hi Steve

Lay on your belly, arms in front of you and resting very lightly on your elbows. Now bend your legs 90 degrees. Look straight ahead. Clench buttocks so knees are not resting on floor. Back arched so no pressure on elbows. Wiggle feet around pretending to do frog kicks. Do this in a public place. Cool? Not really, but it does strengthen those back muscles

Apologies, can't make it to the wrecks because I am diving Farnes that weekend. Got confused with date of bank holiday. I'm currently thinking about doing the Sunday at Anglesey but I'm not sure I can make it. Its the first weekend after Sharm. I'm sure we'll sort something out soon. I'm keeping my eye on AndyPs southern trip.

And talking about scrutiny and stage fright, I'm looking forward to seeing these batwings of yours !! If they are as big as they say they are I'll simply hide behind them LOL

Kindest Regards

WL