GUE Fundamentals Course - A Review

[kramynot2000]

The best thing that I took out of my DIRF course was that it really got me to think about my diving and how to improve.  I think that GUE is pretty upfront that they didn't invent much of what they teach, but that they just have taken what they believe are the best and combining it all into a "system."  I've only taken the fundamental course though so I'm definitely not a expert.

As for the backward kick, I've actually found it extremely useful when DMing classes.  I'm able to work with a student and keep a constant distance from them without having to push off.  So its good for that.  Its a very difficult (at least for me) skill to master but I'm getting better and while doing pool sessions with a class, I sometimes find that I'm backward finning without realizing it.


Also, my normal dive buddy and I use the backward kick to keep our distance from each other when we practice skills when neutrally buoyant.


Tony

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Tibbs @ Aug. 04 2003,22:06)]I do almost all my diving in the channel, and the floating free thing works for me every time I dive. Remember - if you're netrally buoyant and you aren't hanging on to anything, it doesn't matter what the weather is doing topside, your depth doesn't change, you just go up and down with the swell! We did a dive on the Kyarra when it was pretty lumpy - shipping forecast said 5-6 and we had no difficulty holding a 6m or 3m stop using the floating free method. It also of course drastically improves your buoyancy if you don't have a crutch (line, be it SMB or Anchor) to lean on.

Don't you dive in the channel? Where abouts?

Hi M8

I dive mainly Brighton, Folkstone and Dover. However its not just the location its the type of diving. Free hang without an SMB is  generaly not an option on deco dives due to heavy boat trafic and strong currents. Free hang is not an option on long deco as the effort required and the breathing controle are detrimental to good efficient off gassing.

I think the only free hang deco I have ever done was on the Thistlegorm. There were about 20 divers on the shot and it was slack water so I did the hang just off the shot. But it was only 6mins as a precaution. To acheive a steady 6mhang requires good weighting and trim yes but also breath control and constant vigulance on the depth gauge to avoid high PP02 using rich deco mix.

I have to say that the thaught of a 30 - 45min 6m hang with the penilaty of a trip to the pot or worse if you screw up just free hanging dosent bear thinking about. I only know of one diver who attempted this on the Moldavia after loosing his reel and his buddy. He did a 40min free hang. The Nimrod found him because the boat and the coast guard couldent and he was bent dispite beleiving he had done all his stops.

I think boyency control is very important especialy with reguard to proper weighting and balance and avoiding unnecessary contact with the reef, wreck, silt bed etc. It is handy fro photography and vidio as well, but all this guff about your not a good diver unless you can do a free hang deco at 6m is just to impress the numpties and serves no benificial purpose. The only divers who could do it with no effort and no constant referance to their depth gauge are possably trainers/instructors doing 100's of dives a month or lucky sods who do similar numbers. For the rest of us once a week divers it takes way too much effort to hold for a long period.  

On very deep dives with very long hang times I would prefer to use a Deco station with weighted bars set at 6,9 & 12m. This is even better than an SMB as it again reduces the amount of effort and control needed to preform the necessary stop.

Does that make me a total stroke??

ATB

Mark Chase

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Tibbs @ Aug. 04 2003,22:06)]P.S. Admittedly I do use the back kick more than I possibly should - mainly because I've just started to really get the hang of it. I'm also told it's very useful for backing out of holes in wrecks, and much faster than using your hands when confronted by a large congar...!  

No way would I atempt it when faced with a conga

I got bored diving a load of rocks and weeds off the cost of Estertit last week, so I had a go at backward fining. I sort of managed it once but the rest of the time I just went forwards and backwards like a sort of piston.

Mind you the other divers seeing me atempt this would have probably used prick for their anarlagy

Mark Chase

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]The only divers who could do it with no effort and no constant referance to their depth gauge are possably trainers/instructors doing 100's of dives a month or lucky sods who do similar numbers.

Mark ,

I take it you mean instructors that train in lakes / puddy pits and nice clear med type viz. Coz ya never see them them here off Dover.


FREE ASCENTS in the channel are only performed by NON LOCAL DIVERS and the TOSSERS.

Andy

ps, the ferries - seacats and the 400 passing ships we get here each day can see a Dsmb but never a head of a diver boobing away.

[Mark Chase]

Hi Andy

I was trying to be polite M8  

I looked for you as I got off the Sea-cat today,(we drove to Barcolona??) saw the boat mored up about 10:30am. Looked at the oil flat calm sea and thaught you lucky bugger. I bet your diving in that later.

Hope to catch up with you soon

Mark Chase

[Tibbs]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Aug. 09 2003,15:07)]I dive mainly Brighton, Folkstone and Dover. However its not just the location its the type of diving. Free hang without an SMB is  generaly not an option on deco dives due to heavy boat trafic and strong currents. Free hang is not an option on long deco as the effort required and the breathing controle are detrimental to good efficient off gassing.

I think the only free hang deco I have ever done was on the Thistlegorm. There were about 20 divers on the shot and it was slack water so I did the hang just off the shot. But it was only 6mins as a precaution. To acheive a steady 6mhang requires good weighting and trim yes but also breath control and constant vigulance on the depth gauge to avoid high PP02 using rich deco mix.

I have to say that the thaught of a 30 - 45min 6m hang with the penilaty of a trip to the pot or worse if you screw up just free hanging dosent bear thinking about. I only know of one diver who attempted this on the Moldavia after loosing his reel and his buddy. He did a 40min free hang. The Nimrod found him because the boat and the coast guard couldent and he was bent dispite beleiving he had done all his stops.

I think boyency control is very important especialy with reguard to proper weighting and balance and avoiding unnecessary contact with the reef, wreck, silt bed etc. It is handy fro photography and vidio as well, but all this guff about your not a good diver unless you can do a free hang deco at 6m is just to impress the numpties and serves no benificial purpose. The only divers who could do it with no effort and no constant referance to their depth gauge are possably trainers/instructors doing 100's of dives a month or lucky sods who do similar numbers. For the rest of us once a week divers it takes way too much effort to hold for a long period.  

You seem to make out that good buoyancy is some kind of voodoo art or even difficult. It isn't! It just takes a bit of practice. As far as my job allows I try to practise once a week, or at least every few weeks. It takes maybe a couple of hours out of my scedule, hardly onerous for something so important.

With decent buoyancy a full tidal breath will take you at max a quarter to half of a metre before you breathe out. Remember - no holding of breath! And remember that no special breathing pattern is needed. It's not the amount of breaths you take that governs your offgassing it's your body's makeup. You lungs can dump as much nitrogen as gets to it (short of overloading them with bubbles) - the important thing is how quickly your body can get the nitrogen out of your tissues. If the number of breaths were the limiting factor in the speed of decompression, all you'd have to do is breathe really really quickly on ascent and you'd never get bent!

The longest free hang at 6 metres I have done so far has been 20 minutes. I did it in really rough seas and it was easy. All I did was hold my hands in front of me so I could glance occasionally to see my depth and relax. I knew my buoyancy was neutral, so my buoyancy wouldn't change more than the half metre mentioned earlier. This took me roughly from 6 - 5.5m on each breath.

I don't practise neutral buoyancy to impress numpties. In fact considering some of the looks I get at the pool when I get in in my drysuit, twinset etc from the other people, shows that I am not impressing anybody! I'm doing it so that (frantically touching wood) should I lose my buddy AND my two DSMBs, unlikely as that scenario is if you practise launching one and not losing the other, the only thing I'll be thinking about whilst doing my hang is hoping the the boat/RNLI can find me, rather than wishing I'd spent more time in the pool brushing up on my buoyancy skills.

As for where good buoyancy is important, I can not believe you think it's important for not kicking the reef/wreck and not for sitting at 6 metres. On the one hand bad buoyancy may damage something on the sea bed. On the other hand bad buoyancy could result in your getting a tox or a bend. Which do you think is more important!?  

Like the vast majority of things preparation in diving is everything. I used to play a lot of Rugby, and without exception all our games were won on the practise field. Diving is the same way. With practise diving is a safe, easy sport at any level. Without it - it's a lottery and you're a statistic waiting to happen.

As for the comment about 'For the rest of us once a week divers it takes way too much effort to hold for a long period.' I dive once a week, usually twice a month, and it's no effort for me. It just took a bit of practise and effort in the run up to the season, and some tune up sessions in the pool.

Chris

[Tibbs]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Andy the Commie 2 @ Aug. 09 2003,19:21)]

Mark ,

I take it you mean instructors that train in lakes / puddy pits and nice clear med type viz. Coz ya never see them them here off Dover.


FREE ASCENTS in the channel are only performed by NON LOCAL DIVERS and the TOSSERS.

Andy

ps, the ferries - seacats and the 400 passing ships we get here each day can see a Dsmb but never a head of a diver boobing away.

I think you may have misunderstood. There's been no mention of doing an ascent without an SMB.

Chris

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Tibbs @ Aug. 10 2003,21:30)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]You seem to make out that good buoyancy is some kind of voodoo art or even difficult. It isn't! It just takes a bit of practice. As far as my job allows I try to practise once a week, or at least every few weeks. It takes maybe a couple of hours out of my scedule, hardly onerous for something so important.

It is not voodo, it can be dificult, and its is not worth the effort on a deco stop. No effort = lots of practice which is what I said in my post. It is NOT important to free hang on deco and I know of a grand total of '0' of my fellow Trimix divers who would bother to atempt it reguardless of wether or not they could acheive it.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
With decent buoyancy a full tidal breath will take you at max a quarter to half of a metre before you breathe out. Remember - no holding of breath! And remember that no special breathing pattern is needed. It's not the amount of breaths you take that governs your offgassing it's your body's makeup. You lungs can dump as much nitrogen as gets to it (short of overloading them with bubbles) - the important thing is how quickly your body can get the nitrogen out of your tissues. If the number of breaths were the limiting factor in the speed of decompression, all you'd have to do is breathe really really quickly on ascent and you'd never get bent!

This reply bears no referance to what I stated and it is ill informed at best. The most efficient off gassing takes place from lower down in the lung and involves the use of the diaghpram in breathing rather than the chest. The number of breaths is relevent only in that it should not be too many or too few. People whos claim to fame is dooig a 1 hour dive on 100bar back gas do not make efficient off gassers. Breathing fast only uses the top of the lung and is dangerous as it can result in hyperventilation.

A full breath can be as much as 6 ltrs of air into your personal boyency controle device. This will lift you in the water and as you lift the air will expand. Thnis effect is much more obvious at 6m than at 30m due to the presure diferance. As any one knows if you start to rise up during a dive you have to dump an inordentate amount of air to simply drop back down. The same is true of the breathing. If you rase 1/2 a M during a breath breathing out will not result in an instant drop back. The way to avoid this to to not take very deep breaths and to breath slowley. BAD FOR DECO.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]The longest free hang at 6 metres I have done so far has been 20 minutes. I did it in really rough seas and it was easy. All I did was hold my hands in front of me so I could glance occasionally to see my depth and relax. I knew my buoyancy was neutral, so my buoyancy wouldn't change more than the half metre mentioned earlier. This took me roughly from 6 - 5.5m on each breath.

I am sorry, I simply dont beleve it. I have done deco in a force 5-6 and been forced to drop to 8-9m to finish due to being tossed about too much at 6m. I may not be at your level of experties but others on the boat that day had been diving for 20+ years and two were members of Starfish deep diving teem and they all said that holding the stops was a knightmare too.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I don't practise neutral buoyancy to impress numpties. In fact considering some of the looks I get at the pool when I get in in my drysuit, twinset etc from the other people, shows that I am not impressing anybody! I'm doing it so that (frantically touching wood) should I lose my buddy AND my two DSMBs, unlikely as that scenario is if you practise launching one and not losing the other, the only thing I'll be thinking about whilst doing my hang is hoping the the boat/RNLI can find me, rather than wishing I'd spent more time in the pool brushing up on my buoyancy skills.

Admerbl stuff but we are talking free hang as a standard practice not in an emergancy. Personaly if I have lost both reels and SMB's and then lost my Yellow SMB with the 6m & 9m stops marked on the drop line, I deserve to go to the pot. Mind you they will get me there quickley as I carry an EPERB.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]As for where good buoyancy is important, I can not believe you think it's important for not kicking the reef/wreck and not for sitting at 6 metres. On the one hand bad buoyancy may damage something on the sea bed. On the other hand bad buoyancy could result in your getting a tox or a bend. Which do you think is more important!?  

You keep talking about boyency when we are talking about free hang. A free hang does not use a SMB and reel or a shot or deco station. You still have to have good boyency control using an SMB but it is possable to be very slightly negitave and hang on the reel to keep tension on the line to SMB and moniter depth. It is also possable to let go of the reel to adjust or re stow kit and use the reel as a visual referance for depth, free hang does not have these advantages. Boyency controle is at its most important when entering a silty wreck or cave and then IMHO close to a fragile reef. It is less of an issue on a stop as there are ways to compensate fro SLIGHT lack of skill but obviously total numpties will be in trouble.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Like the vast majority of things preparation in diving is everything. I used to play a lot of Rugby, and without exception all our games were won on the practise field. Diving is the same way. With practise diving is a safe, easy sport at any level. Without it - it's a lottery and you're a statistic waiting to happen.

Agreed but why take unnecessary risk. Just because I know emergancy in water recompresion theroir dosent meen I use it every dive. Free hang without an SMB is dangerous because the boat dosent know where you are, the other boats dont know where you are, deco is less efficient, deco is dangerous on long hangs with high pp02 mix, and it is more stressfull.

As I said before on deep dives (60+) with long hangs we prefer to deploy a free floating deco station. We ascend the shot to the station and the last man up cuts it free and it floats away with all the divers on. The boat can track us and protect us and we can relax totaly and concentrate on deco. In terms of safety a deco station is best, a fixed shot line is second best but has inherent problems,  SMB and reel is next and free hang is a poor last.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]As for the comment about 'For the rest of us once a week divers it takes way too much effort to hold for a long period.' I dive once a week, usually twice a month, and it's no effort for me. It just took a bit of practise and effort in the run up to the season, and some tune up sessions in the pool.

I dont have a season I dive all year round. I have an old M8  who is famous for his boyency control at my old club. He spends hours practicing it and is quite remarkable to watch. He is now an instructor. He still uses an SMB when ascending and doing deco.

Those blokes in the DIR vidio were free swimming on their stop and taking the piss out of the blokes on the shot line. As I said before on a lot of the dives I do the blokes on the shot would be taking the piss out of the diver atempting the free hang but I am sure they would take floweres to the funeral if he was hit by the sea cat.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Tibbs]

It think there's been some kind of misunderstanding. A free hang for me is with an SMB between the pair of us. One holds the SMB, though not hanging off it, and gives it a tug every once in a while to let the skipper know we're still under it, while the other person floats nearby. I would never advocate doing any kind of deco diving without a DSMB.

Decoing whilst not neutral I was always taught as being a bad thing to do, especially hanging off an SMB. If something happens to your reel/DSMB, you can be going down before you know what happens, and if you are breathing a high PPO2 that could be potentially fatal. Even hanging on a deco station should be done as near to neutral as possible IMHO.

As for breathing from the diaphragm - too many years of singing means that I do that anyway, without thinking about it. My usual breathing pattern is in for 4 out for 4, with a slight pause before breathing in or out. Seems to work for me.

As for holding the stops in rough seas - if you were hanging negative off an SMB you're right, it would be a nightmare. You'd get dragged all over the place If you were neutral, you just go up and down with the swell and your depth doesn't change. In bad weather it is easier to poke the reel/spool to keep it ahead of you and watch it jerk around all over the place as you maintain buoyancy.

You also say that doing a hang neutral is different to neutral buoyancy. How is that? Isn't neutral bouyancy the same wherever?

TBH if you suffer from a 'slight lack of skill' you shouldn't be anywhere near a deco dive.

Chris

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]It think there's been some kind of misunderstanding. A free hang for me is with an SMB between the pair of us. One holds the SMB, though not hanging off it, and gives it a tug every once in a while to let the skipper know we're still under it, while the other person floats nearby. I would never advocate doing any kind of deco diving without a DSMB.

Oh    In that case I have totaly misunderstood your thread. Sorry. I was always talking about the DIR vidio where the divers are finning arround with no SMB.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Decoing whilst not neutral I was always taught as being a bad thing to do, especially hanging off an SMB. If something happens to your reel/DSMB, you can be going down before you know what happens, and if you are breathing a high PPO2 that could be potentially fatal. Even hanging on a deco station should be done as near to neutral as possible IMHO.

If somthing hapens to your SMB you will know instantly and can go into corective mode. Please not the emphasis on SLIGHTLY negitave. it is just enough to keep tension on the line. If somone cut your line you wouldent plumit to the bottom on a high PP02.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]As for holding the stops in rough seas - if you were hanging negative off an SMB you're right, it would be a nightmare. You'd get dragged all over the place If you were neutral, you just go up and down with the swell and your depth doesn't change. In bad weather it is easier to poke the reel/spool to keep it ahead of you and watch it jerk around all over the place as you maintain buoyancy.

Excuse me I said force 5-6. We wernt in swell we were in 10 foot waves. The SMBs were not usefull at all we had to loosly hold the line in our fingurs and drop the reel down about 2m to prevent it being riped out of our hands. At 6m on an up swell I was sucked up and fliped over, after that I droped down to 9m and thanked god I was on 80%.

Getting back on the boat was good fun too. I was nearley harpooned by the ladder.

If your in Swell your SMB is on the surface and you are exactly 6m below it and you go up and down just the same as a free hanging diver. As for letting the reel go and poking it about. In Dover we go down when its ripping and come up when its ripping and do the dive on the wreck in the available slack. You let your SMB go and you will never see it again. Surface currents and depth currents can be totaly diferent. Come to think of it It was like that last time I dived the Kiara too.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]You also say that doing a hang neutral is different to neutral buoyancy. How is that? Isn't neutral bouyancy the same wherever?

Sorry havent explained that clearley. What I meen is hanging at 6m with a touch referance and a visual referance ie a reel and SMB or a station, is totaly diferent in level of dificulty than just hanging at 6m in the blue / green with no point of referance.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]TBH if you suffer from a 'slight lack of skill' you shouldn't be anywhere near a deco dive.

Depends on the skill I supose. I have to say there are a few bods on the boats who have been dooing deep deco for years and all they care about is getting down and sitting on the wreck with a hamer and crowbar. On the way up they are content to hang (litraly) from their SMBS for the stops. Not saying I agree with it but I am cirtianly not brave enough to tell them they cant do deco dives  

Any way, sorry for my misinterpritation of your thread

ATB

Mark Chase