Wreckies

[Duiker]

I've been diving for some time now and have been happy to stick with the regular salt/fresh water dives above 40 meters. The problem is I've developed a morbid interest (like many) for wrecks and want to get more involved.
What is the best route for a "stroke" to become adequately qualified to dive deeper, longer and on wrecks?

[Mr T.]

You could do worse than to move to twins (if you're not already using them), then do the TDI deco procedures course and then do the TDI Trimix course.

You will get other opinions on the 'best' route to take, so seek as much advice as you can here and then make your decision.

Good luck and hope that helps.

[Duiker]

Thanks Bren,
This is going to seem so stoooopid to some of you but..
What is the deal with twins? I realise you have more valve options, air etc but I dont know that I would just walk into a shop and buy a set. I really have not got a clue to be honest.
For example, wont I need some sort of "wing" with a twin set? Can I sort out the bouyancy myself with these or will it need training?

[Finless]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Duiker @ June 13 2003,10:29)]Thanks Bren,
This is going to seem so stoooopid to some of you but..
What is the deal with twins? I realise you have more valve options, air etc but I dont know that I would just walk into a shop and buy a set. I really have not got a clue to be honest.
For example, wont I need some sort of "wing" with a twin set? Can I sort out the bouyancy myself with these or will it need training?

Twins - extra gas + redundancy of supply.

New wing - not necessary if your existing BCD has enough lift BUT wings give you a better position in the water and you will probably need to get something with more lift (keep your old BCD for use on single cylinder dives).

No, you can sort your own buoyancy out in shallow water. Abt 50 bar gas in the cylinders then add/take off weight until you float with full lungs and no air in the BCD/wing and sink when you breath out (ideally). The crucial bit is to be able to hold your 3 mtr safety/deco stop with nearly empty cylinders.

You can buy/order the cylinders anywhere - even by phone over the internet.

Given your lack of knowledge on the subject I would do one of the advanced courses first  (as mentioned by Bren) as kit configuration is discussed at at length (I did TDI to). There are a few options to consider e.g. manifolded or not.

Another consideration is given the expense of the kit (inc extra 1st/2nd stage bits) had you considered going down the rebreather route?

[Mr T.]

Hi Duiker,

No need to apologise mate and your questions don't appear in the slightest bit stupid - we all had to start some where and the diver who thinks he's/she's the 'finished article' is the diver you should avoid.

Yes, my preference would be to dive twins with a wing - that said, I've never dived twins with a BCD, although I have heard folks who have complain that it doesn't give enough lift. Again, you'll get differing opinions on this point.

Where are you based mate?? Are you a 'Cloggie'?? Or are you in the UK?? If you're in the UK, we can get you squared-away with a local instructor who can advise on your twin set-up and get you in the water so you can sort out your weighting and buoyancy control correctly - as the act of 'flying' a wing needs slightly different disciplines to a BCD, and weighting is essential to maintain correct buoyancy.

And yes, you can just walk into a dive shop and purchase twins, manifold/valves and bands. My own rig looks like this:

1 x Halcyon Explorer Wing (single bladder, 55 lbs of lift)
1 x Stainless Steel back-plate
1 x Halcyon harness
2 x Faber 12 litre cylinders (steel)
1 x MDE Manifolded valves
1 x set of OMS bands
2 x Poseidon Jetstream Regs (one with a 2 metre long hose)
3 x Sherwood 'tactile' rubber valve knobs (personal choice and NOT essential)

Hope that helps mate. If you have ANY other questions, just fire them in - there are divers on here with far more twins experience than I have who may offer you a counter or alternative view e.g. some folks prefer to dive their twins as independents (i.e. non-manifolded) and/or as 'Twinverts'.

Cheers,

[angus Theape]

I am quite sure there are wrecks in your area that can be dived on the experience and equipement you have, not all wrecks are in 50m+.

Find a club interested in wrecks and go on their shallower dives to get the feel of what you are doing. Try some simulated deco stops during your dives to get the experience of what is involved, use both a shot line and delayed smb in case you don't find the shot line when you need it. Then just go and do it, building up your experience gradually.

I don't know your equipement but a main cylinder and 3lt pony would suffice for most early dives. I would not go on a trimix or such course without getting the wreck experience first, its a lot better to screwup at 20m on air than 50+ on trimix.

I am quite convinced that many tech diving wreck deaths are caused by lack of experience on wrecks where a little knowledge gained at shallower depths would have avoided the incident.

The trimix course and such is the easy part to get, the school of hard knocks is on the wreck.

[Dr Stevil]

<font color='#0000FF'>My two cents worth
Twinsets: obvious advantage is more gas but more importantly redundant air supply. with independants you can get going more cheaply by using soft cam bands with your current BCD. How much lift in your BCD ? Stuff like the Buddy Commando can handle twin 12s, (though like most here I prefer a wing) so going that route could get you twinned up for the cost of an extra tank and soft cam bands. But in a FUBAR you don't have access to the air in an independant if you'ge got a terminal free-flow.

Manifolded twins with no isolator - can shut down a free-flowing reg but could still lose gas if there is a problem with the pillar valve

Manifoded twins with isolator - the safest option and IME the commonest confiuration; even in the event of a PV problem can still isolate and save the gas in t'other tank.

Courses - IMVHO, absolutely not essential in the first instance; I got my twins and wing and started using them before doing stuff like Deco Proc course but still diving in the &lt;30m range. It's actually easier (IMO) than diving 15L + Pony as twins sit better on your back.

The &quot;experienced&quot; guys in my old club used to treat 'diving twins' with the same mystique as doing an untethered spacewalk - as long as you're comfortable with the extra weight of the kit it's no different to diving singles. Having said that I once saw a &quot;new-ish&quot; Dive Leader using twins (12s) for the first time and he couldn't even cope with his kit well enough to look after his trainee, which was bloody irresponsible.

For going deeper I'd say most divers would benefit from extra formal training, I (and others here) can recommend the TDI Deco Proc course. Are you nitrox trained? if not might be beneficial to do a combined nitrox/deco proc course.

Some divers (I believe Mark Chase is one) limit theirselves to 45M for air and prefer to use normoxic trimix for +45m. Personally, I see myself going that way for +45m dives in this country, even though my BSAC limit is 50m on air, I just don't want to be narked at that depth.

Just for comparison my setup is:
2x10L 232bar with MDE isolator manifold (got them S/H , a bargain at £220 just tested for first time     )
OMS 100lb &quot;Batwing&quot; single bladder, red and bungied
OMS &quot;IQ&quot; harness (the newer pocketless version)
Twin Tx40s one on DST 1st stage, one on DS4,  long hose on primary, normal length hose on secondary,
Single SPG
normal length BCD inflator
ND Schrader &quot;Blowgun&quot; drysuit Valve and Hose (for filling dSMB etc)
3X Sherwood tactile knobs
apparently unbranded SS twinning bands (I can't see any logos)
CD Valve guards

All of which is inverted 'cos I don't have Gibbon-length arms like Gav and like the ease and speed of being able to shut-down in an instant
 

HTH
Steve

Added later in relation to Angus's post -  I don't what diving you've done to date Duiker, but I have (rightly or wrongly) assumed that you've done at least some wreck dives before this point and know how to deploy a dSMB.

I personally don't think there's any mystery to finning around an artificial reef (which is what most wrecks are to me), and I've certainly done &quot;first OW dives&quot; with trainees where it's been a shallow wreck, IIRC I did The Breda (about 15-28m) with about 10 logged dives.
Of course wreck penetration would be a whole other ball game, but even then, it's not rocket science to lay out a line.
It's gets a bit more challenging when you're diving wrecks from a RIB (or even a smaller inflatable)  and have to locate the wreck with transits and echo sounder, shot the wreck (an art in itself) recover the divers etc etc.   If you're a BSAC diver most of this (plus other good stuff)  is covered in Advanced Diving Techniques which I can highly recommend

[Duiker]

I guess that If I explain my situation the reason for this post may be a little clearer? It should answer some of the questions raised at least?

I moved out to Holland three years ago just as I was re-discovering diving after a long lay off. Since then I’ve tried hard to work on my qualifications. My log book is slowly filling up and my experience grows every week. The club I belong to (CMAS) is well organized but remains a little difficult due to the language and cultural difference (I speak Dutch but I will always be “The Englishman” I guess). Over here there is so much bloody water that inland diving is often favored as the whole thing is easier to do. I dive twice a week at as many as six different locations in up to 65M of water that are no more than 15 minutes drive from home. When its so easy its not always as easy to persuade buddies to drag themselves away from family and to the coast each weekend, charter a boat, pay for gas etc. Your average Dutch guy would not see the sense in spending all that cash to do what he can do in his own back yard (the Dutch have the same “tight” reputation on the mainland as the Scots do back home and its completely true! Eddie will back me up). Because of this my logbook shows a little over half my count in fresh water. As such my experience on offshore wreck diving is a little limited but not non-existent.

I’d really like to get involved in more offshore diving, particularly on wrecks, but need to know what I should expect, what type of training will allow me to dive to some deeper wrecks if required and what kit I’ll need.
Perhaps I’m being naïve but I felt that a good tech diving course, which covers wreck diving, would be beneficial at any depth and allow me to begin diving wrecks anywhere so as to gain the very experience I need to progress deeper. Lets face it where am I going to find a buddy who would dive with me at the moment? If I have the training at least I am more likely to be seen as a competent diver who just needs an experienced buddy, not a nanny.

[Dr Stevil]

<font color='#0000FF'>I work with a couple of Dutch guys, not at all like I expected the Dutch to be, a bit overly straitlaced
(no larfs in this lab &nbsp; )

Well if you CMAS club aren't up for going off-shore, you might wanna buddy up with other divers who are; there are three BSAC branches listed in Holland, if they're anywhere near you you might wanna check them out as BSAC does tend to be very wreck-oriented and they will be happy to recognise your CMAS status
HTH
Steve

BSAC go Dutch &nbsp;

[Andy Phillips]

Hi,

Here's my bit, I want to stay away from actual kit, but to say, in my opinion, to do the deeper wrecks in this country or for that matter elsewhere, twins and wings are essential. The wing issue is solved very quickly when you start to want to do long bottom times with decompression. You need enough lift from the wing to raise the twins and stages. The reality is simple, e.g. Yesterday we did a wreck that was in 60m of water, we didn't get that deep, rather stayed at 55m, looking around in the holds. I had twin 12's, and two 7 stages, my 12's had an 18/40 mix and I left with 210 bar did 30 mins on the bottom plus the deep stops and ended with 80 bar. The stages were EAN36 started with 220 bar ended on 150 Bar, and EAN 80 started with 220 Bar ended on 90 Bar.

My point is, if wrecks fascinate you, then bottom time becomes very important, which means you will move into long deco times, you will need to accellerate your deco to have enough gas to get home so you carry stages. You need a wing to have enough lift to carry all the metal work.

At this point training is essential, like a lot of others I am TDI trained, it's good. They will help you choose and configure your kit without any particular bias to a method. If you want to be DIR / hogarthian compatible then fine, if not then that is OK also.

Andrew