PADI Deep?

[MATTBIN]

John
you might well be correct, additionally I suspect some people buy the kit (twins etc) and do not build up enough experience at shallow depths so they are confident below 30/35. Add to that any incident is more serious the deeper you go and you have a recipe for a problem becoming very serious. I know others dive that deep or beyond and are happy to do so, its a personal choice and I do not wish to curtail anyone else from making that personal choice.
Having said that, I did say I wouldnt buy a dry suit either.  
Matt

[Hobby]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (JohnR @ May 20 2003,13:09)]When I started to say at around 30-35m (this is when I notice it) he replied that narcosis begins as soon as you put your head under the water and that it's effects only increase with depth.

He was absolutely right,it's a (dangerous)fallacy to beleive that you can only get narked by going over some magical depth(30/5m?).Narcs can come in whenever wherever generally,it's not an exact science(we did a big thread on this awhile back,should be in the archives).
your other points are also correct,it would seem logical that the deeper one goes then the greater the risk.Looking at stats howevrer it would be as easy to claim that incidents increased significantly over 20m and also 40m etc.It 's because as said before most people use the 30/5m thing as a yardstick.
Look at the 70mph speed limit,it has parallels. Not really brought about as a result of research,scientific evidence etc but many figures use it as a yardstick(and the 30 limit) eg."If you travel at 80mph you're x times more likely to be hit by a Rhino than at 70mph etc",now if the limit had always been 60mph or 80mph the stats would reflect how much safer those speeds were either way if you see whee I'm coming from.
Whether you're driving on air or mixed gas!
HTH,Hobby.

[Lou]

Hobby....its those words "to the limit speciefied by your agency" that count.  If insurers get hung up on these then we *have* to, unless we are a) rich or b) are not leaving anyone behind.

I could cross over to BSAC and get 5m on my "limit" without doing anything extra.....stupid eh?  I would pay for a years membership and that would cost me as much as a PADI speciality.

Or I could get a PADI deep diver and get an extra 10m on my allowance, get a "deep" dive under supervision and then be covered "just in case".  Getting it, for me, for Matt, and for many other "average" divers is merely about getting breathing room, not about diving to 40m on a regular basis.

If and when I want to extend times, do planned deco dives, go deeper then I will do the relevant training and get the right equipment.  Whilst I just want to stick my head down a hole to see a fish and that drops me to 32m on my computer then i can't see where nitrox, or trimix or twinsets come into it?!

I really think that the two sides are arguing two different situations here.


 

Lou

[Fiona]

<font color='#0000FF'>Can I just mention that the BSAC incident reports are based on statistics from all agencies not just BSAC. &nbsp;A lot of the reports are from coastguards, RNLI as well as BSAC's branches own incident reports.

&nbsp; Fiona

[Hobby]

I understand what you're getting at Lou honestly,but to get that extra breathing room,flexibilty etc in your dives,what we're agreed on is that you need a ticket of some description to basically &quot;authorise&quot; you to go deeper,for whatever reason,yes?
As you say,swapping agencies/doing the PADI deep is probably the cheapest option.
WhatI'm suggesting(and perhaps others)is that it is'nt possibly the best one even if you intend staying around the 30m mark,I'm not suggesting people do this just to dive deeper.
The benefits that a Nitrox ticket(and relevant training)would give are legion,more in depth bouyancy control,higher skills,equipment familiarisation,the benefit of usiong a &quot;nicer&quot;gas even given your type of diving as mentioned before,the &quot;ability&quot; to go deeper is merely an added advantage(that you want as &quot;cover&quot.
I appreciate that it may not be the cheapest option,but in terms of training,value for money etc.given the current level of experience/qualification I beleive it's the most favourable progressive step,look at Tim's comments they seem to say what I'm trying to do much more clearly!
Take Care,Hobby.

[Gavin Yates]

<font color='#000F22'>I'd just like to reiterate my point about rescue training.

I think it's vital for almost all divers. And at depth - that anything over 20m is essential.

If you're buddy gets narked and buggers up are you confident about getting him and you to the surface safely and unbent?

I agree with Hobby that nitrox is fantastic stuff and the course - if taught properly &nbsp;- assists with many areas of your diving.

I agree that deep air isn't a clever thing but I'm happy on air or nitrox to 45m-ish any more than that I'd be using mix in UK conditions.

The main thing about depth tho - and I include - 30m dives as deep ones - they can kill you - is can you get to the surface safely? and can you assist your buddy to do so too?

[Hobby]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (FionaB @ May 20 2003,14:24)]Can I just mention that the BSAC incident reports are based on statistics from all agencies not just BSAC.  A lot of the reports are from coastguards, RNLI as well as BSAC's branches own incident reports.

  Fiona

Hi Fiona,we've looked at this before.While the BSAC tables are undoubtedy usefull they are quite &quot;limited&quot; in what they represent(despite what many DO's claim).Much of this is due to the compilation techniques and classification criteria relevant.You'd be suprised just how stringent the guidelines are in some cases before you can call something a &quot;diving related incident&quot;
There is a bit of a discrepancy between BSAC's incident reports and &quot;whatever&quot; &nbsp;Govt agencies use,BSAc certainly use some MCA,RNLI figs but quite possibly not all.The very internal incudent reporting system can be quite flawed too within BSAC re.compliance etc..I posted a link a while ago by the MCA which was frankly up in arms about the rising incident level in rec diving,the comparative BSAC report of that year bore no relation for some reason,I've also been at Fort william where Govt figures were made available to the School,they were frightening and 12months later the HSE became actively and aggresively present at many rec venues.Had the BSAC figs represented a true representative picture of incidents overall there would have not been the need if you see my drift.
It's unfortunate that for whatever reasons the BSAC figs are all that we have to go on,it must be appreciated however that they're a snapshot only.
Cheers,Hobby &nbsp;

[Andy Phillips]

Hi,

One last little post on this;

Insurance, bit of a grey area this, depending on the company depth limits are set, but with the proviso of within ones experience. So if a diver is PADI AOW and reguarly dives below 30M and there are logs to prove it, then theoretically they should be covered because it is within there experience.

A bit of interest, I was having a long discussion yesterday with a couple of TDI instructors, it seems there are new plans afoot. It appears that the 30M limit is about to get cast in stone, all training agencies will have this as a limit. Deep air, it has been decided, is too dangerous for us to use. I think that this is an edict that is coming from the HSE, along with the 0% of Oil in fills which will be here in 2004 and already exists in Germany

Andrew

[daz]

<font color='#000080'>Might as well chip in,

Matt,

If you are willing to pay the money, then do consider the TDI nitrox, &nbsp;If this meets the objective of certing you to 40m then great and knowing how you have a thirst for knowledge I know you would love all the theory. &nbsp;

At the end of the day, &nbsp;I know where you are coming from on this and it is I suspect exactly the same reason I wanted a cert saying I could dive to 40m. &nbsp;But if you can achieve your goal and get a nitrox cert that could also benefit other areas of your diving then great.

Daz

[Lou]

OK, I've had a little look and the info I can find is that TDI basic nitrox (about 60-100 squids) just lets you use up to 40% and to no specified depth so i would assume it is to the depth you are already qualified to.

The Adv Nitrox (about 150-300 quid) needs Nitrox diver as a pre-requisite and qualifies you for nitrox to 46m for dives not required staged deco. &nbsp;Whether it qualifies you to dive to 46m, or just to use the gas to that depth on the back of another cert is unclear.

Underwater Explorers in Dorset have this description...

Qualifications of Graduates
Upon successful completion of this course, graduates may engage in diving activities utilizing EAN-21 through one hundred (100) percent oxygen without direct supervision so long as:
1. The diving activities approximate those of training.
2. The areas of activities approximate those of training.
3. Environmental conditions approximate those of training.

Hmmm..not much clearer &nbsp;