certification level

[And]

Hi

name....Andy

from......East Yorkshire

years diving.......Achieved Club Diver 25th April 2002, was diving about 6 months before that

number of dives...88
About half and half fresh and sea
Dives in the UK 76
Dives with Jacket BC 40
Dives with Pony 7
Dives with Single Wing 14
Dives with Dble Wing 34
Dives with Single Cylinder 54
Dives with twins 34

max depth dived...35m Stoney

solo dived.........No

courses undertaken. BSAC Club Diver
BSAC Sports Diver
BSAC Dive Leader (2 Rescue Dives to do)
BSAC Combined Nitrox
BSAC Instructor Foundation Course
BSAC O2 Admin
BSAC First Aid For Divers
BSAC Practical Rescue Management
BSAC Chartwork and Position Fixing
RYA Short Range Certificate
TDI Nitrox Blender
GUE DIR Fundamentals

coldest dive.......4 C

warmest dive......23 C Red Sea

any other bits of info:- I did the DIR course in March and found out I could not dive, despite all the courses. Since then have gone back to basics perfecting my buoyancy, diving and buddy skills. I enjoy my BSAC club and like the BSAC courses but IMO GUE aims higher which I like. As long as we find a third person GUE Tech1 is lined up for September. I'd also like to do the TDI Advanced Gas Blender and am planning GUE Cave1 in Mexico February 2004

Ever run out of air? Nope, not even nearly

Ever dived with anyone who has run out of air? Nope

Worst diving moment. Doing the BSAC two people SMB routine, got tangled up and rapid ascent luckily only from 12 mtrs at Farnes. Now ensure I can perform any task by myself.

Ever had a freeflow? Nope

Ever seen anyone else have a freeflow? Nope

Think thats it. If the thread is still active after my red sea hols I'll update it.

Kindest Regards

Andy

[markg]

<font color='#000F22'>seems to be a lot of cert collectors on here

[markg]

<font color='#000F22'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I did the DIR course in March and found out I could not dive, despite all the courses. Since then have gone back to basics perfecting my buoyancy, diving and buddy skills.

wl
  bet your bsac instructor will be well impressed with that. how the hell did you pass your courses if you couldn't perfect the three most important skills  
is it just me or do other people find it worrying too

[malcolm smith]

seems a shame to imply critisism for going on courses.
It is a good way of gaining information from, if you choose the right instructor,someone who will have a whole lot more experience than you/me.
Within a club, the whole thing can stagnate and go round in circles if no members break out and get fresh info and techniques.
A Course doesn't make you a better diver, it does give info and put you through some very testing hoops, then it's down to you to get more experience.
Cheers, Malcolm.

[Dr Stevil]

<font color='#0000FF'>I think the more positive inference is that Mark believes some people only ever do courses rather than simply getting out diving for it's own sake, either that or he is advocating an anarchic approach to diving. Personally I can't see a problem with folk putting theirselves through a varied programme of training, is it possible to tbe taught too much ? I don't think so.

WL, bit of a fast-track dude intcha ? CD to almost DL in a year? I'd been diving three years before doing my DL. Fun dives are just as important as drill-dives you know
Chee-az
Steve

[Mr T.]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (markg @ May 31 2003,13:09)]

wl
  bet your bsac instructor will be well impressed with that. how the hell did you pass your courses if you couldn't perfect the three most important skills  
is it just me or do other people find it worrying too

Mark mate,

I'll pick up on two of your points, if I may: your comment about 'cert collectors' and your other comment about Andy's very honest and genuinely self-deprecating remark on his own capabilities.

* 'Cert Collectors':

The initial point of Steve's exercise (i.e. the initial post) was to get a read on the type, breadth, depth and spread of the diving experience of members of this board, or at least those who might choose to respond. I rather fancy after over 8 pages of member responses that Steve's goal is at least partially achieved? Wouldn't you say?

The other thing about (Rec) 'certs': you're both damned if have them, and damned if you don't! What do I mean?? Well, let's have a quick hyperthetic.

Number One: Have NO Rec Cert's

Let's say that you want to go and do a week's blue water stuff in Sharm, you've heard how fantastic it is and you're dying to get in amongst it. It'll be your 1st time in blue/warm water - even though you've got 15 to 20 years of diving and over 1,000 dives in the mega-viz we enjoy in the UK!!

You started diving with your job, as you began you're diving career as a Royal Navy Ship's Diver and then, after leaving the mob, you became a Comercial Diver (sat-diving, wet &amp; dry bell work, the Monty) - so as far any recreational diver ticket/qualifications are concerned, to you, they're about as much use as tits on a bull.

But you don't know or care about that as you've never been asked for or shown interest in 'cert chasing'; unless it's to do with HSE Parts 1 to 4 that go with your job. And you certainly didn't need one in the mob!

So you're blissfully ignorant of the 'cert-score' (coz for the type of diving you do you can be) and happy that with all diving experience you've got and all the dive buddies you've got will see you through; and, your experience of diving DOES invlove the religious completion of your logbook (all aspects of the dive: times, deco, depth etc.) - as far as you're concerned the only true and quantifiable way of you having done the diving you say you've done and for others to check your veracity.

So, with confidence in your own diving abilities, the fact that you've never been asked for a cert-card before, your fully stamped up and completed logbook and your HSE Part 1 (just in case!), and without being remotely cocky, you gambol up to the desk at the reception of the dive centre in-country and announce:

&quot;My good man, I have arrived here with a sole purpose in mind; I indeed have ALL my own kit and so, without further let or hindrance, I'd like to book a week's worth of your finest Red Sea diving and thence commence same forthwith!&quot;

And, after the perma-tanned Adonis with the vacant look, sun-streaked/dyed hair and pierced-everything looks up from the magazine he's reading, he reaches for the (insert your diver training/certification agency/school name here) &quot;How to Get Out of Jail and NOT be Liable for Anything, Regardless of what Happens to our Guests Whilst they are Diving with us this Week&quot; form and asks you to fill it in.

Only this form has that 'bugger, I've just been tripped up' question on it: &quot;You MUST show this dive centre proof of your diver certification level to be allowed to dive here - or anywhere is this country' No cert, no dive.............and no amount of &quot;but look at my log book - and my HSE Par...!!&quot; cuts any ice at all. Just how pleased are you gonna be?


Number Two: Have Cert's, indeed, plenty of them

Well this situation can result in two types of response:

A) Buddy ONE: &quot;Hey buddy, you've been well busy gaining experience and keeping your diving-hand in with all those courses, judging by those number of cert's!&quot;

   Buddy TWO: Yeah, it helps a lot and means that I can do the type and range of diving I want to do anywhere in the world - assuming the centre offers that service. You know, some people call it 'cert collecting', but I call it 'practise' - and we all know what practise attempts to make.....don't we?&quot;

OR

B) &quot;seems to be a lot of cert collectors on here&quot;


So ya see: damned if ya do and damned if ya don't


Onwards.............


** Andy's Comments on His Own Performance


Having dived with Andy, albeit only twice, I can vouchsafe that no dive-Muppet he! I read his comments and took them to mean that what ever he might have learnt before, regardless of agency/school/instructor, and all the habits (good and bad) that went with that previous experience, they were ALL brought into stark relief in how they needed work,  fine-tuning and improvment; so comments like &quot;I found out I could not dive....&quot; were mere hyperbole.

Lastly, and whether his former instructor might be impressed by his comments or not is irrelvant I feel, for ANY diver to have the courage to recognise that their in-water capability and deployment needs root-n-branch redress is a step in the right direction - as long as it's not done for mere fad or fashion, or just so you can be in a clique, and as long it is done with the genuine desire of self-betterment or improvement.

I am not (and never will be) the 'finished article' when it comes to diving, although I do know a few folks pretty close, and a few who THINK they are. Either way, as long as we see where to make changes and improve where needed, we should be in pretty good shape.

[markg]

<font color='#000F22'>just don't see how you can be &quot;experienced&quot; enough to move from club diver to dive leader in that space of time.
sorry i don't know how bsac works if this is the norm then i apologise

[And]

<font color='#0000FF'>MarkG, Was going to respond but really can't be bothered. Is it really your intention to ruin the thread with inconsequential drivel or are you on the wrong website http://www.divernet.com. I'm sure you will be happy there.

WL

[Mr T.]

Hey Mark mate,

Firstly, and apologies for not saying this before - WELCOME to YD! Please feel free to get in amongst it.

I wasn't looking to rag your arse about it and I didn't assume you knew the workings of the BSAC teaching roster - personally I know very little about it also, not being a BSAC wallah myself.

As I understand it, and Stevie Walker you're probably best placed to correct any guesses/mis-info I might give here (and I'd prefer if this didn't descend into a general 'drains-up' about the inter-agency riff), when you join BSAC from scratch, you pay an annual subsciption/membership fee and then all your training and course manuals are free!

This sounds ideal right? And in a number of ways it is and works very well for a lot of divers (BSAC wouldn't have the membership it has if folks were pissed-off en masse, now would they?)

Then you take in to account that they will happily teach you but you have to be patient and wait for the dry-bags, rigs, BC's, instructors etc. to make/find time to teach you - obvioulsy this availability of kit, material and personnel might be changeable from BSAC club to BSAC club as (as I understand it) most Diving Officers and Instructors are civvies holding down fulltime jobs; so you can see that they might not be available every weekend and/or midweek for pool session. Fair enough.

With the above model in mind, it is easier to see why Andy was able to yomp ahead in his training schedule (i.e. he had access to an Instructor on a very regular basis - has all his own kit to boot) where other BSAC clubs might not have the same access to kit, pool, instructor etc.

That's my read anyway - and I could be completely way off base and am quite prepared to be corrected.

[markg]

<font color='#000F22'>cheers bren, sounds a lot like SSAC who i trained with.

wl
&nbsp; is it &nbsp;&quot;inconsequential drivel&quot; because my opinion is different to yours ?
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;have a nice day
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mark