Divers not good enough

[Tim Ingmire]

Actually one question.

In what way aren't the divers good enough - did they state this on the prog?

TIm

[daz]

<font color='#000080'>OK question for the mods.

Is it possible to have a section on the site where we can pool this information into useful FAQ's for the benefit of all. &nbsp;The possibilities are endless.

Consideration for new kit purchases.
Benefits of different agencies (I'm sure we are all mature enough to not have too much controvosy on this &nbsp; )
Benefits of further training.
Additional skills and experience for UK diving conditions.

etc.

Once people get a view on what maybe required it will prompt discussion/questions and hopefully offers of assistance.

Daz

[Lou]

Sorry Gav, I was trying to open up the discussion, not shoot the messenger!

The problem with alot of the items mentioned is that they vary from boat to boat, or from team to team. &nbsp;You could never teach anyone *the* way to do it. &nbsp;Shot line protocol, ingress and egress etc are all variable - as should be witnessed by the number of us on the Swanage trip who got our wrists slapped for holding onto the side of the boat on egress!

Certainly there are skills that are more pertinient, or only applicable, to sea diving and people need to build up to dives, not expect to be able to dive anywhere, but that applies no matter what training you have had,

picking up on the skipper thing, personally I think that someone who advertises their services as a &quot;dive skipper&quot; is more than a taxi driver. &nbsp;I expect, or would like to be able to expect, more than just being dropped off and picked up. &nbsp;If I don't get more than that then I won't use them again.

The English Nature site had a discussion about divers on it and there it was mentioned that HSE standards advise a skipper plus one deckhand for every 4 divers. &nbsp;I don't know if this is true but ideally there should be at least one deckhand on board besides the skipper in my opinion. &nbsp;So conversely to the local skippers, perhaps we could say that there are alot of skippers who are not skilled or equipped to take divers, and perhaps that adds to the problems?

(And i still haven't had a reply from a certai dive centre to whom I wrote a letter of complaint about their boat and skipper so that's why i may sound a little peeved on this matter!!

)

[Fiona]

<font color='#0000FF'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Gavin Yates @ June 17 2003,12:54)]Fiona  - Enjoy your diving with Peter. I'll say again - so people can maybe understand.

I'M ONLY PASSING ON WHAT THE RLNI HAVE SAID AND PEOPLE LIKE PETER - THE LOCAL SKIPPERS!!!

Sorry Gav didn't mean to be flippent, your right why should my preparaption for St Abbs be any different to last weekend in Trearddur Bay just because we had the rib with us, where I looked up the tide tables, new where to dive and when to get there,  on time and wait for slack.  

There are some skippers we trust and some we don't, we tend to really on local knowledge however some people don't, they end up hurling themselves off the harbour wall and don't think how to get back.

  Fiona

Actually Gav do you have access to tide tables for next Wed - Friday ? &nbsp;I have found a website but they only do about 4 days ahead and I am not in the office from Friday.

[Fiona]

<font color='#0000FF'>Yes I have seen it, in fact I think that's how I found YD's in the first place I seached for St Abbs and found you guys. &nbsp;We have been before with Peter so we booked with him, then I found the other boat and accommodation and air station - is their air station in the harbour open yet? is their air double filtered ? &nbsp;they were not yet open when I emailed them.

Our dates are Wed 25 to Friday 27 he was booked up for the weekend.

Thanks for your help.

Fiona

[LesleySS]

That's a great idea Daz. &nbsp;My day job is actually publicity so I might be able to help with getting the results to the right place...?

[Finless]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Finless - What I dislike about PADI was their response to this  - I included this in my first post - which boils down to well we tell 'em to get local orientation and if they don't well that's their look out.

What is wrong with that - PADI are a training ageny, not a club environment and don't pretend to be anything else. People take the course, get the basic knowledge and basic training and it is up to them to employ it properly, including the building up of experience.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Also, I think that tidal knowledge and experience of diving in severe drifts/surge can assist your diving wherever you are in the world.

Couldn't agree more. My point, for example, is tidal surge (of any note) doesn't happen in the Med so it has to be explained in theory etc.

I don't know St Abbs - if the problem is that bad why don't the council put up signs warning divers abt rip tides, times of slack water or whatever is causing the problem.

How are newbies going to get any experience if they don't give it a go. I don't believe there is a diver on this forum who hasn't done something dumb it their diving past - just probably not in view of everyone else.

The ultimate idiots will probably end up a subject of the Darwin Awards whilst the rest will learn and mature or give up. Why don't the RNLI, for example, mention that at least newbies are trying out their skills at St Abbs where there are recue facilities &quot;ready to hand&quot; instead of finding some remote shore away from prying eyes to dive from.

By the nature of shore diving the weather has to be reasonable to nice so I imagine the RNLI guys look forward to having a blast about on the rib - I know I would.

Gav - If this seems like a go at you it is not inteneded as such, I understand you are only reporting on a subject. {EDIT} - apart from (probably) the bit about PADI. I don't see problem people have with the PADI training regime - you get what you pay for. If people want different, go somewhere else. If ANYONE is stupid enought to believe that having just done a basic course that they can ......

[Dr Stevil]

<font color='#0000FF'>Hmmmmm... &nbsp;  
Shame on you Gavster, first you renege on a cracking dive at Abbs, then instigate a BSAC v PADI ruck ? tut tut tut...
You up for Abbs this weekend? I've got my buddy Steve Millerband arriving from 'Darn Sarf' and looking to dive

Personally, I feel that any delineation between which agencies divers are experiencing the most difficulties is likely to start the typical us v them ruck; consequently, the actual issue of safety is going to get lost amongst political bickering.
Plus I don't see how how can you ID someone's agency from watching them have &quot;difficulties&quot;.

Lets face it, AFAICS diving's biggest bugbear is agency politics, am I right or am I right ?  

As a BSAC-wallah who has dived Abbs umpteen times with newbies in tow, the only divers in difficulties I have seen are those flaunting the code of Safe Diving Practice:
 Safe Diving Practices breaches such as no surface cover, no O2 available, diving from the harbour wall when the sea is whipping up etc etc.
Any trainees who come my way will automatically get a copy of the SDP and are expected to familiarise themselves with its contents. Also the clubs I've instructed with only let CDs/ODs dive with DL or above. I have seen at least one club not adhering to all aspects of the SDP, but it's not my job to tell other adult qualified divers from other clubs how to stay alive (hey! it's not called Natural Selection for nothing you know   ) Also I know at least a handful of experienced divers from that club and my old club who have done 60 metres on air (DAISNDAID divers )

I would also point out that some of the dives I've done with YD-ers  haven't been 100% in strict accordance with these SDP guidelines.

I've often thought that, even though YD isn't a formal club, and there's no DO or mandate for anyone to say &quot;Hey we should be doing it this way&quot;, that as &quot;we&quot; as a group are becoming a little more &quot;known&quot; that it perhaps wouldn't be a bad idea if we had some kind of voluntary agreement that we will endorse some form of SDP of the type linked above.
OK I know this could be contentious but think how we mould feel if the stuff hits the fan in a terminal way for one of our crew? There's be a lot of &quot;if only...&quot; type sentiments , don't you think?

Anyhoo, who were those three divers last year who got bollocked by the Harbour Master for  diving in the Fairway at Abbs, eh ?  

A little anecdote from this Saturday, a very vocal family group of divers (a real PITA, TBH) were parked next to me in the main car-park, Liz reckoned they sounded like they were from Hull, but definately not YD-ers. They were talking about diving the next day and one asked what time they should plan to dive, the most vocal one said of course they would be diving at the same time as high and low tides are the same every day and only change between the seasons .... FFS!  

BTW, there is a 37 minute video, &quot;Dive Safely&quot;, available free from the HSE and intended as &quot;a reminder for experienced divers and as an educational aid for novice divers&quot; which describes what to do in the event of a diving incident, first aid, handing over the casualty to the emergency services etc.
Contact:
HSE
Offshore division
Lord Cullen House
Fraser Place
Aberdeen
AB25 3UB


Chee-az
Steve

[Finless]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Gavin Yates @ June 17 2003,15:26)]Stevie - I wasn't starting a bleeding PADIvBSAC debate.

All I bloody did was post a quote from PADI and the RNLI.

I ID'ed the agency of the ones I observed having difficulties by talking to them - it's an old Indian trick I picked up.

I give up ...

Gav,

Your reply was so heartfelt and boy did it made me laugh - unfortunately, out loud! I am at work and that was a bit embarrassing. Some swift keyboard work was required to get back to my spreadsheet.

Don't give up - things have been a bit boring recently. I think we are all grateful to you for the info and a chance to vent a bit of spleen. Maybe it is the sticky weather OR maybe lots of divers love any excuse to have a BSAC/PADI barny.

Moral of the story is - don't be the messenger unless you are called &quot;A Nonny-Mouse&quot;

[Jay]

Hmmm - so the skippers at St Abbs think a lot of divers aren't fit to dive there, eh? Still happy to take their money and I don't see any of them checking log books or dive certs before taking them out.