Divers not good enough

[Adrian Kelland]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Gavin Yates @ June 17 2003,08:21)]"We train our divers to get orientation in local conditions."

Nice get out of jail free card there, Gavin

I wonder how they 'get orientation'. I would say that they need to be SHOWN how to read tide tables, gear up on boats etc.

I have seen St Abbs, but never dived there. What local info is posted re tides? Or does everyone have to do a web search to get info? I know there is some good stuff online, but a new diver still needs to know what he/she should be looking for.

Preaching to the converted here methinks.

[edit]
Gavin started this thread by reporting some comments made by the RNLI in St Abbs, and a response from PADI. It seems to me that Gavin responded to our replies as if we were shooting the messenger. On 21 June I noticed that Gavin had deleted his initial posting and the subsequent posts within the thread. This should explain why this thread appears to read strangely.
[end edit]

Adrian

[RobK]

IMO this is just more of the same sort of issue that's facing diving at the moment. Too many agencies pushing get qualified quick courses and a bunch of students who for the most part are just doing it to dive on holiday or with no real thought for what is involved.

Should divers be trained how to use tide tables before going in the sea? Damm right they should. But that should just be part of a whole set of dive planning issues that simply don't get discussed at the beginning levels of training. How about a bit of decent gas planning as well while we're at it.

IMO entry level diving qualifications are being dumbed down, year on year in the drive to sell more kit and the relentless desire of people for instant gratification. No one seems to grasp the fact that learning how to dive properly needs a bit of effort on the part of the student, which is often sadly lacking.

Anyway rant over

Rob.

[Adrian Kelland]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Gavin Yates @ June 17 2003,09:16)]I'm not preaching to anyone - just wondered what people think.

Sorry Gav, I meant me.

[daz]

<font color='#000080'>This is a really tricky one Gav,

Unfortunatley it is not possible to police who can throw a cylinder on their back and leap in the sea... &nbsp;Even proof of any scuba training is not enforcable.

Also playing devils advocate here.. &nbsp;Many divers will qualify in quarries just because the coast is blown out and they want to qualify quickly for holidays etc... &nbsp;Not to mention the divers who only dive abroad for years and then want to try UK diving.

I do not agree that a PADI Sea Speciality would serve any purpose. &nbsp;Maybe I am cynical (and I'm PADI trained !!) but what would it entail. &nbsp;Probably the basics about tide and current, &nbsp;possibly some more indepth info on boat diving and heaven forbid maybe some DSMB deployment and probably 2 dives, &nbsp;all based on sea diving off Florida or somewhere. &nbsp;All for £90 - give us your money, ta very much.

The responsibility should come down to the clubs to ensure people are adaquately trained and this is one of many areas that SSAC and BSAC should excel... &nbsp;As for the other agency divers who are not affiliated with a club then places like YD are ideal for them to hook up with more experienced people who are willing to coach and assist. &nbsp;

Daz

[Steve S]

<font color='#000080'>I agree that it is wrong to have a DM/DL with little or no sea experience as is the fact that people will dive to their cert' limits without build up sea dives.

The only problem IMO is that legislation could open a can of worms as in &quot;do warm water dives count the same as cold water dives&quot; etc.

I can only speak for my BSAC club in that anyone trained in fresh water would have to do their 1st sea dives with a NQI
and a person going for dive leader must have done at least 50 uk sea dives, also all our students are taught how to work out air requirements from their 2nd o/w dive and dsmb deployment from the 4th dive.

With regard to St Abbs I have done 20+ dives there and have always my done homework re:tides etc before setting off also a quick check with the h/master is always a good thing as one time he said to make the dive no longer than 30mins as it was going to get lumpy, he was right and no agency can teach that.

Safe diving,
Steve.

[daz]

<font color='#000080'>Nice idea Gav,

But why not take this one stage further. &nbsp;If we are talking publicity here, let this work in YD's favour.

Maybe we could keep a separate tally for experiences and assistance provided. &nbsp;

For example :-

Over the last 12 months YD members have :-

Introduced 32 divers to UK sea diving.
Held 48 diving trips, attended by 342 members.
Assisted 26 Divers with drysuit orientation dives.

etc... &nbsp;

and maybe some positive publicity could work in our favour. &nbsp;YD - Run by divers, for divers.

Daz

[Lou]

Good idea Daz. &nbsp;Keep a running tally, showing how active and proactive YD is. &nbsp;

As for Gav's comment, how good is &quot;good enough&quot;? &nbsp;What would you include in a course to change a quarry diver to a sea diver?

You have already listed tide tables - this is borderline for me , if you are paying for a skipper to take you out then you are relying on his knowledge on the sea conditions etc anyway...this only applies for those who never shore dive or lead a club outing)
Boat etiquette - there are an awful lot of experienced divers who could do with a duffer's guide to boat manners. &nbsp;It should obviously include which side to throw up from!
dSMB use - sensible
Drift diving - can already get a PADI cert in that!

What else....???

[Finless]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]There are no tide tables shown at Abbs - I would expect divers to do their homework before they arrive on site.

Couldn't agree more - only a brain required for that IMO. Surely it is that obvious even without any training.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I agree that PADIs attitude stinks but it's BSAC divers that I've seen that appear to have the most difficulties.*

*This is an unrepresentative sample based upon only what I have observed.

Why does PADI's attitude stink? I did PADI OW and AOW on hols in Gozo MANY years ago. Everything needed to get you started as a diver (apart from experience) is taught and is in the course manuals. I never imagined once I had completed the courses that it meant I had learned everything there was else to know or learn about diving. Also, it seemed SO obvious that when I started diving in the UK that conditions would be totally different (i.e. harder) than in the Med etc. Perhaps the fact that BSAC divers are amongst those that have problems proves the point it is down to the lack of common sense of some divers rather than their training agency.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]The question still remains - should people be compelled to do sea dives as part of their training and should that training include reading tide tables etc?

I think that would help if they were diving in the sea here or somewhere similar BUT not of as much value if overseas in clear water etc.

{EDIT} Tide table knowledge is useful BUT even better is ringing up a local dive centre/club and asking abt times in and out of the water for the slack period + any other tips.

One last point is that people learn by their mistakes (I certainly have - one or two dumb enough to make me wonder if I had a brain left) - I am sure that none (well most) of the people who have done something wrong will not want that to happen again and will take the relevant steps.

[Fiona]

<font color='#0000FF'>Hi Gav

I will be up at St Abbs next Tuesday, we are diving with Peter Gibson from Wed - Friday. &nbsp;I'll keep a look out for all those people bimbling about and try to stay out of their way. &nbsp;I had better find the tide tables now for said area although I was like Lou said going to rely on Peter Gibson, &nbsp;afterall he is the man with all the knowledge and there is nothing better than local knowledge.

If anyone is around to say hello to, we are staying at Springbank cottage in the harbour. &nbsp;Anyone around for a lemonade after dinner will be welcome.

Fiona

[Tim Ingmire]

You know a PADI Sea-diving specialty would be a good idea and in fact would be one of the usefull ones.

What would it include?

Well, use of extra equipment (DSMB etc), boat stuff, working out tide tables, depths etc from Admiralty charts, more on water movements, nav and pilotage, proper dive planning (esp air planning) and then actually diving in the sea min 5(?) dives.

It would actually be a sizeable course tailored to suit local conditions, of course with the PADI over-rider that states that you are only certified to dive in similar conditions.

Of course BSAC (and I guess ScotSAC) do all this but if they are also having probs (given Gavs observations) then we are back to the issue of training standards.