PADI AOW

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Phil Ennis @ Aug. 12 2003,17:30)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Let's clear this one up now. PADI AOW qualifies you to 30m not 40m. If you want qualifying to 40m then you have to do your Deep Speciality. Just so we don't confuse anybody else reading this post.

Sorry quite right. I did my AOW via the Adventure Diver rout and I did, Drift Diver Speciality, Deep Diver Specialiaty and Wreck diver (ran out of time to get the extra dives in for the specialiaty on that one )

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Like you said Mark, you were confident and capable which is why your suggested minimum dive standards are unrealistic. This would simply hold back very capable divers. I assess each student on thier capabilities. Some I advise to go straight on to AOW after OW and some I suggest get a bit more experince diving with me or some of my DM's. I feel it works well.

Fair point, but I found out the hard way that I was just as likley to get into trouble as the next guy and experiance was key to deeling with most of the problems. Perhaps OW and AOW are not far apart enough. I have about 260 dives and I still dont consider my self experianced enough to lead a group of divers. I can cope with me and I can cope with most experianced divers but I would kack my self looking after a numpty. Then I find Divemasters with 50 dives to their name and I think what a joke.

I actualy look back in horror at my earley diving. Single tank, no SMB no reel, no EPIRB, one knife untethered, one mask, K calmp regs, 6m safety stops then streight up to the surface. Finning ascents from 40m streight up to 6m in 2.5min's. Poor hudration pre and post dive, etc. I am not at all surprised that the Diver Mag reported that most bend incidents occured on no decompresion dives. Most inexperianced divers do so called no decompresion dives.

I was confident but also nieve. I am again pushing fast forward with my diving but I am trying to keep my eyes open this time.

Just an opinion.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Mark Davies]

<font color='#000080'>Mark,

Reading your comments on these threads seems to indicate that you believe that large numbers of dives = competancy. Undeniably, more dives means more experience which SHOULD mean more competance, but I'm sure you will admit that the two simply don't go hand-in-hand.

You can be a crap diver and do hundreds of dives - if nobody puts you right you're not going to know any better and you're still going to be crap. There is no correlation.

Equally, you can come into diving with shed loads of transferable skills and having been introduced to the basics become competant very quickly. Fewer dives doesn't mean lack of skill.

You have given examples of how you, as a relatively inexperienced diver, have had to bail out divers with more dives under their belts. But then you have gone on to state that people should have to do large numbers of compulsory dives before progressing onto higher levels of qualification.

Do you not see the contradiction inherant in the argument?

We all learn in different ways and at different speeds. Some people pick up skills easier and quicker than others. Each INDIVIDUAL needs to be assessed on THEIR merits.

We must therefore be able to trust in the individual instructors who are certifying a trainee's ability. Whether instructors are doing that job properly is a case in point, and I will entertain arguments that perhaps they are not. However, I think it misses the salient point to concentrate so much on simple numbers of logged dives.

What is clear, from the experiences that you and others have posted, is that there may be a lack of consistency in the standards achieved to gain certification. I suspect that this may be fuelled by commercial interest. It's not good business to disappoint your customers (say, by failing them!).

So therefore, it's not the methodology of training (e.g. the number of required dives) that should be brought into question; more the profit motivated ethos.

It equates with the Railtrack situation - profit v safety.

I don't want to get into the old PADI bashing argument - I am PADI trained myself, after all. However, I think the organisation could do more in terms of its quality control. I don't think there is anything inherantly wrong with its training methods, however if there was more consistency amongst its instructors, the organisation would get less stick than it does.

I expect John is going to rise to the defence here as he has done previously, but I imagine that the situation is much tighter in Sweden than here due to the smaller market. I don't have much experience of divers trained in other countries and can't say if they're any better or worse than in the UK.

What I can say is that I have seen more than a handfull of PADI qualified DM's and Instructors who were utter morons. Thankfully they are the minority, but something is going wrong.

I'll now put my soapbox away and go to bed!

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Davies @ Aug. 13 2003,02:59)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Reading your comments on these threads seems to indicate that you believe that large numbers of dives = competancy. Undeniably, more dives means more experience which SHOULD mean more competance, but I'm sure you will admit that the two simply don't go hand-in-hand.

Yes I sort of do. Most PADI divers will do the course OW -AOW -Rescue diver etc and thats it, off they go. They will seek out divers of similar standard to do similar dives and progresion from there on is by experiance. Admitidly some people wont lurn a thing but I think most divers will gain compitancy with experiance. This is where I think BSAC is better in the club development of a diver and dive leaders activly paring experianced divers with novices. I have never done a BSAC course but I have dived several times with BSAC groups and witnised this first hand.

Just as an example bassed on MY personal experiance typical things which were developed over dives:

Equipment configuration
Kitting up routeen
Kitting up and chilling before a dive
Rejection of pier presure
A safe SMB deployment routeen
REDUNDANCY
Weight distrabution
Boyency control
Breathing
Dealing with narcosis
Dealing with S#£T fan interface

Loads others but I wont bore you too much with the obvious. It wasnt untill my SMB reel jammed that I thaught about striping off the line after a dive and re laying it. It wasnt untill it tangled arround my reg that I looked at how to keep the line away from my exaust, it wasent untill I lost my knife that I looked at tethering, It wasent untill I virtualy ran out of gas untill I looked at redundancy.

Yet I had done all the courses and felt confident that I had received good trianing, it was just the fine tuning that made the diferance between a good safe dive and an acident waiting to hapen.

In the end I attached my self to a young broke diver with 600+ dives under his belt and a Trimix cert and a PADI instructor cert, who taught me the finer points in exchange for a lift to the dive site and a free pint &nbsp; But for him I would not be doing what I do now.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Equally, you can come into diving with shed loads of transferable skills and having been introduced to the basics become competant very quickly. Fewer dives doesn't mean lack of skill.

I cant agree with that. Yes a well trained diver with good basic skills will develop quickley but only with time and the company of more experianced divers. IMHO

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]You have given examples of how you, as a relatively inexperienced diver, have had to bail out divers with more dives under their belts. But then you have gone on to state that people should have to do large numbers of compulsory dives before progressing onto higher levels of qualification.

Do you not see the contradiction inherant in the argument?

I obviously didnt make my self clear. I was very very lucky to get away with it and I was craping my self. I felt in no way capable of handling the situation and just had a crack at it. Looking back I was very foolish to atempt it and knowing what I know now I would have handled it very diferently. Had she bolted and hung on I would have been bent or much worse.

I could give you a little list of very stupid things I did in my earley dives that would make Ann Marie look positivly conservitive.(well perhaps not) It is experiance that has taught me how daft I was. I have no doubt in a few years time I will look back at my present diving with equily critical eyes.

I have used the car analagy before but I feel its like a 20 somthing with a new drivers licence. Keen as musterd and totaly confident in their abuilities. Then after a few accidents or near misses they realise their own abuility counts for dick when the lorry just pulles over into your lane right on top of
you.

CCR training does not allow progresion to deep mixed gas diving untill you have 100 hours on the basic unit. They make no allowance for diver abuility dispite the fact that most CCR divers are very experianced OC divers often with a Trimix background. They dont see it as a problem and there is still a long waiting list for Insperations.

So hopfuly I have made it clear that I dont think its one rule fro me and one for other divers. I am saying dont do what I did it was wrong right up untill the bit where I got to know George.

My advice would be to do the BSAC rout of slow development for UK diving conditions or go the PADI rout but try and find a club that will properly develop your skills not just offer you the next available course (very hard to do). BUT do the PADI AOW (with deep diving specialiaty ) so when you go aborad you can dive (sorry the MUCH less demanding) clear blue stuff with greater independance whilst still staying well inside your abuilities.

[quote=[b]Quote[/b] ]What is clear, from the experiences that you and others have posted, is that there may be a lack of consistency in the standards achieved to gain certification. I suspect that this may be fuelled by commercial interest. It's not good business to disappoint your customers (say, by failing them!).

Totaly agree

What I can say is that I have seen more than a handfull of PADI qualified DM's and Instructors who were utter morons. Thankfully they are the minority, but something is going wrong. [quote]

I agree but I have seen one BSAC instructor who falls into that catagory too.

ATB

Mark Chase

[daz]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Aug. 13 2003,09:24)]

I agree but I have seen one BSAC instructor who falls into that catagory too.

ATB

Mark Chase

Well as I have said in other posts, yep I have met a few &nbsp;Instructors and DM's that I have been shall we say concerned. &nbsp;BUT it has been a minority.

Also we have to look at many factors, &nbsp;I do not believe the training is at fault and good in water skills and experience are important but overall the most common theme with these people is &quot;The wrong attitude&quot;.

Now I have voiced my opinions in the past about these fast track DM and IDC/IE courses (Normally run abroad) and after much consideration I do not believe that the fast track is neccessarily the root cause of the problem, &nbsp;however I do suspect that a higher percentage of these people who require an attitude re-adjustment attend these types of course rather than a slower and methodical approach spent gaining experience (Where they have more chance to have their attitude re-adjusted by their mentor) .

Just my humble opinion..
Daz

[Mark Davies]

<font color='#000080'>Mark / Daz,

Some good points and well made.

I think we would all agree that the lack of a decent club structure around PADI training is probably the biggest issue, and we've discussed this elsewhere recently. If you are doing your training with your local dive shop it's so common to find that the only way you can get to go diving is by going on another course. I certainly found this to be the case.

When I'd gone as far as AOW and decided that it was enough training for me for the time being and that I just wanted to get experience in, I found I was mithering the instructor to let me come along on training sessions and just watch. Of course I wasn't a Rescue Diver or DM so I wasn't much use to him and was made to feel like I was in the way.

I then found myself under the pressure of &quot;well, if you're coming along why not do your rescue / nitrox / whatever course&quot;. My experience, I think, is typical, except that I was determined not to do any more courses. The result was that for a long time I did very little diving.

It is therefore inevitable that you're going to get PADI divers qualified to the highest levels who only seem to have dived on courses.

Yes Mark, I can see a solution being one of insisting on minimum numbers of dives before progressing to each stage. But as John pointed out, most PADI divers will find it very difficult to log-up those dives because there isn't a club around them to take them out. You'd perhaps end up with a couple of OW divers getting together and going to Capernwray over and over again just to log the numbers.

Which is why I said earlier that mere numbers of dives does not necessarily equate to competence.

String's experience reported here is a good example of how BSAC both succeeds and fails.

It might be taking him some time to progress his qualifications (an absolute age in comparison with PADI) but he seems perfectly satisfied with that. And why? Because he's still getting to go and dive regularly. I presume an 18m (?) depth limit is not too restricting for him, with enough good sites in that range to keep him occupied. And even though he is not progressing in qualifications he is still learning, in much the way that Mark described from his experiences. Success.

The failure is that after maybe 2 years regular diving and perhaps 100 - 150 dives he still might not be qualified to go and dive off a liveaboard in perfect conditions in the Red Sea. Why? Because the training is done &quot;as and when&quot; and is just fitted in around the diving. You then end up with a situation where theory is done in October and the dives done in April!

I'm sure that the best BSAC clubs are the best way to learn. As long as the club has a good training structure and sufficient instructors and priority is given to trainee development then it should be possible to progress trainees better than in String's experience.

Clubs like that surely exist. Many are not like that, though. We often share a pool with the local BSAC club. Time and again I see people coming along to have a try out with them, often with a view of getting qualified before going on holiday. They're then told of the time scales involved and are never seen again. The next day they're in the local dive shop booking a PADI course.

We need a happy medium - PADI training with a good club structure, BSAC branches with a professional training structure. They do both exist, just not everywhere.

In the meantime I think Lou's solution is a good one. Join a BSAC club and take your time over diving in the UK, but also go and train to PADI AOW so that you can go and enjoy those warm, blue water holidays.

Horses for courses!

[John Gulliver]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Aug. 13 2003,00:24)]

That is simply not true.

Clod water restricts blood flow to extremities of the body thus reducing eficient off gasing due to reduced gas transfer through the tisue walls

A warm water dive is less stressfull on the body than a cold water dive. Even at basic OW level we are taught to plan a cold water dive as 5m deeper than a warm water dive. A good viz dive is far less stressful on the diver than a dark low viz dive.

Surely, a cold-water dive is only more stressfull on the body if you're not wearing adequate thermal protection.
As regards the psychological impact of poor vis, exceptionally good vis is also a stress factor, owing to your having to keep a constant watch on your depth (as in your example with your own wife).
I still maintain that the inherent risks of a 40 m dive (on air) are basically the same regardless of where you do the dive.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (John Gulliver @ Aug. 13 2003,16:09)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Surely, a cold-water dive is only more stressfull on the body if you're not wearing adequate thermal protection.
As regards the psychological impact of poor vis, exceptionally good vis is also a stress factor, owing to your having to keep a constant watch on your depth (as in your example with your own wife).
I still maintain that the inherent risks of a 40 m dive (on air) are basically the same regardless of where you do the dive.

Note: I was on Nitrox for that dive.

Sorry John but none of the training agencies or my reserch into decompresion therioy agree with that statemnt. They ALL agree that cold water diving is far more dangerous than warm water diving.

A skin temperature of 33c is required to maintain comfort levels and our inner core temperature of 37c. This temperature is maintained in the head and &nbsp;body core during cooling thus reducing blood flow to the extremities. Asd the cooling has occured progresivly during the dive nitrogen on gassing may have already occured in the extremities of the boddy. At decompression the body is at its coldest period during any part of the dive as the activity has cesed and exposure to cold conditions is at the higest level. 30% of heat loss takes place from the head which is the part of the body wearing a wet suit (hood) so poorly protected.

Blood flow is re routed to the head and inner core thuss promoting faster body cooling due to rapid heat loss through the head. Nitrogen bubles traped in the tisues of the extremities will not be able to off gas eficiently and the posibuility of DCI is greatly increased especialy in the form of a skin bend this is due to vasoconstriction of the superfisial layor of body tisue.

From the moment you hit the water you start loosing body heat. In 29c in Egypt the loss was slow but in 9-18c in the UK the loss is fast. Dry suits and thermal insulation will slow the process but hands and especialy the head are still poorly protected. Breathing dry compressed gas is also a contributing factor in heat loss as it will transfer heat from the lungs away from the body and start to dehydrate the diver thus prompting reduced circulation and reducing the off gas eficiency even further. Cold increases stress levels thus promoting faster more shalow breathing to prevent heat loss from the base of the lung. Most off gassing takes place at the base of the lung so again this promotes poor off gasing.


As cooling occurs our reaction times are reduced and our physical movement impaired. Dexterity is lost in the hands and the thaught proces is slowed. Not good for diving.

As for low viz I am very surprised at you claim that is does not affect the diver. I know some good divers who refuse to dive deep dark low viz wrecks because it spooks them. It still heightens my awairnes levels diving in less than 3m viz as I have in the past accidently entered the wreck in low viz. I have lost buddy contact more times than I care to remember. Humans are programed to be scared of the dark its a primal fear. Fear heightons the fight or flight reaction and can make fro some dodgy decisions during a dive. You dont need empirical evidance of low vis scaring a diver just ask my wife. We go down the shot and if she cant see she will come streight back up. During a 5mviz dive she will hold my hand throughout and during a 20m viz dive she will bugger off and enjoy the dive. &nbsp;Its as simple as that.

ATB

Mark Chase

[John Gulliver]

Mark, I can assure you that those of us who dive all year round in Sweden  are well aware of the dangers of hypothermia. I just don't see why it's more likely to occur in a drysuited diver wearing a good undersuit and a good hood and gloves in the UK (or here) than in, say, a diver wearing a 5 mm wetsuit in 20 degree water in the Red Sea in winter. I may be wrong, though. By the way, won't the chilling effect of breathing compressed air be constant, regardless of the ambient temperature?
I didn't say poor vis is not a stress factor. Of course it is. I would think all of us feel a little stressed when we can't see more than half a metre or so. I certainly do. We learn to cope with it with experience but, speaking for myself, I doubt if I'll ever feel realy comfortable under those conditions, so no argument with you there. The point I have been trying to make is that, even in warm, clear water, a 40 m dive is a deep dive, not to be taken lightly, which is why most agencies set the limit for sport diving to 40 m. Furthermore, most of us dive with a single cylinder without redundancy on trips abroad, which is an additional hazard. I have to say that I feel more comfortable diving to around 40 m in the winter here at home, knowing that I have 810 litres of redundnat air, than I do in the Red Sea.

[Mark Chase]

Fair enough M8

But for the record Ling was on a 15ltr and 3ltr Pony I was on twin 10ltr for her dive.

I was on single 12ltr 30% with slung 12ltr 36% Nitrox for the 40m dive in the red sea.

When it comes to running out of gas I am a total coward.

Mark Chase

[John Gulliver]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Aug. 14 2003,23:08)]When it comes to running out of gas I am a total coward.

Mark Chase

Me too. I just wish I could find a practical way of arranging redundancy on trips abroad. Twinning independents is not a practical option for me – I couldn't lift them – and taking my pony isn't either, for weight reasons, which is why I tried to start a campaign on Divernet to get the major divecentres and liveaboards in popular diving destinations to get a few pony bottles for rental, but few people seemed to be interested in the idea.