Mexico CCR Cave Training Report

[KiwiMagic]

Mark

with 20/20 hindsight, would you go with the same outfit again? I know you have said they were good, but I am assuming that most cave instructors are good (or they wouldn't be in that position of trust and also have a reputation).

Curious as one day ..... I might ....just might ....possibly ....

By the way - how did you convince your wife to let you do a cave diving course? Mine is .... er..... less than enthusiastic about the whole idea.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by KiwiMagic

Mark

with 20/20 hindsight, would you go with the same outfit again? I know you have said they were good, but I am assuming that most cave instructors are good (or they wouldn't be in that position of trust and also have a reputation).

Curious as one day ..... I might ....just might ....possibly ....

By the way - how did you convince your wife to let you do a cave diving course? Mine is .... er..... less than enthusiastic about the whole idea.

Easy, i told her it would improve my safety skills as a diver



Yes i would strongly recommend Protec and either Matt or Patrick but only to divers who expect and can tolerate a hammering during debreifs. Matt doesn't pull any punches.

We deserved 95% of the slagging we got.

If your of a nervous disposition or take offense easily id seriously look elsewhere.

If i do Tec Cave ill be booking Matt.


I underestimated how cold it would be. Matt wore a 200g thinsulate during the course and I wouldn't have felt out of place in one. I regret not taking my normal dry suit and under suit. I know how to trim out in that rig and having good buoyancy is essential to the course.

I recommend being able to do all standard CCR drills and being able to work a reel whilst holding stationary horizontal position in 2m of water.

If you can do this before you get out to Mexico than I reckon you will have a much easier time of it than we had.

ATB

Mark

[Dr T]

good report and well done for surviving guys !!


a

[warmwaterdiver]

and I thought MOD1 was hard

[Clare Gledhill]

Good report Mark. Exactly what I would expect of you - honest and pulling no punches. Well done for passing.

To those who wonder about team stress, caves are places where stress kills and stress levels within the team in and out of the water are legitmate causes for concern for any instructor. I'm not surprised that the three of you rubbed a bit on each other, good for you for realising that this was a by product of the course and that at the end of the day you are still mates who go diving. Our team used to have to make up at the end of most GUE courses

I'm slightly disappointed that the three of you don't appear to have enjoyed the caves. Or maybe that was just after the shock of the course - cave courses are simply not easy and nor should they be but the Mexican caves are stunning and your regarding them as dangerous places that simply should not be dived OC defies the experience of the vast majority including all the exploration work in Mexico which goes on today - where a three hour dive can be done on sixths and you have all the gas in the world.

Bailout was to prove an issue as we were using single ali 80s blown to 200bar with air. One of the team had a RMV close to that of a sexually aroused hippo and as a result our 30lpm gas plan limited us to a max 30min penetration time.

A 30 minute penetration is also a shame - and does, I feel, highlight the problems of taking RBs into an environment where perhaps OC would be simpler. However, I'm certainly not going to argue having a sound and sensible bailout strategy so congrats to the team and the instructor for sticking to this limitation.

At the end of the day, I know that your team wanted more out of this course than just to see caves, and diving RBs was part of that so I won't criticise that decision at all. I would suggest though that you reconsider Mexico and open circuit diving - and one day return for some very easy, incredibly beautiful dives (preferably when you have found a really good hotel for Ling )

So - Florida. Where rednecks picnic on catfish on the river beds. Where cave diving is in the blood and where the names, the records, the history of the sport are there for the tasting. Where the flow kicks your arse all the way out of the cave. When are you booking?

[malcolm smith]

Where the flow kicks your arse all the way out of the cave


And slaps you in the face all the way in :-)


You live on the south coast Mark? Have a little drive down to the Dordogne/Lot area. It is such a beautiful place you will come out with many a brownie point from your wife if you take her along :-)

Good on you.

Cheers, Malcolm.

[Mark Chase]

Thanks for the kind words Clare.

Having read you post i feel there are some points I need to clarify as I have obviously not made some areas clear. Remember it was a report on the course more than the caves.

I'm slightly disappointed that the three of you don't appear to have enjoyed the caves. Or maybe that was just after the shock of the course - cave courses are simply not easy and nor should they be but the Mexican caves are stunning.

The caves are beautiful, stunning, epic etc etc and I loved them. I am obviously not a cave diver as I still get more excited about the thought of discovering a new classic ship wreck than i do about discovering a new bit of cave.

If you offered me the Britannic or another cave trip to Mexico? Id go for the Britannic in a heart beet.

Thats no insult to the amazing experience of Mexico caves its just that at heart I now know i am a wreck diver.

and your regarding them as dangerous places that simply should not be dived OC defies the experience of the vast majority including all the exploration work in Mexico which goes on today

Matt has dived mapped and explored more cave in Mexico than just about anyone else alive and he dives a KISS CCR. He had a Meg a RB80 clone and an Optima available and hes dived an inspo. He's also an OC cave instructor. He has the record for the deepest cave dive in Mexico (150m) and the longest. His name is on most of the maps.

He suggested the Copis Meg to be a step up due to its flood recovery performance.

He said that CCR was the logistical the only realistic method of pushing the exploration of the Mexican caves

When asked about bailout he said a KISS also makes a good side mount bailout CCR

On the subject of CCRs in caves he said time is a killer. CCR gives you more time, less pressure, more options.


But these comments are an aside designed only to add street cred to my lowly status by naming names and quoting records that support my viewpoint.

I personally am happy diving OC in open water but at the point where i am in an overhead environment (apart from deco) I prefer to be on a CCR. Be that wreck or cave, I feel safer on a ccr.

CCR has X Y Z failure modes none of which scare me as much as being on a short time limited gas supply.

If you feel safer on OC then fine. What ever gives you the most confidence. I would not even try and deter you from this as its totally a mind game and the only person who can alter the mind is you.

- where a three hour dive can be done on sixths and you have all the gas in the world. A 30 minute penetration is also a shame - and does, I feel, highlight the problems of taking RBs into an environment where perhaps OC would be simpler.

Our 30min time was based on an ali80 with 200bar and a diver with a SAC of 25. We gas planned on 30SAC to add a safety margin.

So 6ths on twin 12s?

200 bar X 240 = 4800ltrs

Avg depth of dive 15m

SAC 30 X 2.5 = 75lpm

4800ltrs X 1/6 @ 75lpm = 10.67mins penitration

How is 10.67 mins better than 30?

On thirds you would have 21mins

We still have 30mins

200bar X 12 = 2400

2400 divided by 75 SAC = 32mins

Why do you feel the CCR bailout was limiting us beyond what an OC dive on 12 would?

However, I'm certainly not going to argue having a sound and sensible bailout strategy so congrats to the team and the instructor for sticking to this limitation.

The diver who imposed the limitation went on to do dive with 45mins on bailout?

Seeing as the rest of the teem had asked him to reconsider his strategy on bailout during the course and he had refused I found this most odd.

At the end of the day, I know that your team wanted more out of this course than just to see caves, and diving RBs was part of that so I won't criticize that decision at all. I would suggest though that you reconsider Mexico and open circuit diving - and one day return for some very easy, incredibly beautiful dives (preferably when you have found a really good hotel for Ling )

I really don't think you understand just how much OC cave diving scares me. I have been diving for 20 years this July and only done a hand full of caves before now.

I ONLY did the course BECAUSE I had a CCR. I could not begin to contemplate doing it on OC

So - Florida. Where rednecks picnic on catfish on the river beds. Where cave diving is in the blood and where the names, the records, the history of the sport are there for the tasting. Where the flow kicks your arse all the way out of the cave. When are you booking?

Hummmmm

No you see I had seen video of Mexico and thought wow. I have seen footage of Florida and thought yeah rock rock and more rock. So I am not keen to go rushing out there. However i will have a crack at France. and if i can find enjoyment out there in the Lott then perhaps Id have a go at Florida

OH and alone. It would be imposable to find a hotel in redneck country that would keep Mrs C from filing for immediate divorce.



ATB

Mark

[Diving Dude]

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

I'm not surprised that the three of you rubbed a bit on each other

Errrrr........not me.

It would take a far lot more than a diving course for this to happen.
If one of them stole my chocolate for example.

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

I'm slightly disappointed that the three of you don't appear to have enjoyed the caves.

l thought the caves were superb and mentioned that in my 'brief' report. Sue's already agreed to go back next winter and France as well

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

Good report Mark. Exactly what I would expect of you - honest and pulling no punches. Well done for passing.

To those who wonder about team stress, caves are places where stress kills and stress levels within the team in and out of the water are legitmate causes for concern for any instructor. I'm not surprised that the three of you rubbed a bit on each other, good for you for realising that this was a by product of the course and that at the end of the day you are still mates who go diving. Our team used to have to make up at the end of most GUE courses

Definitely. I certained learnt a lot on that

Originally Posted by Clare

I'm slightly disappointed that the three of you don't appear to have enjoyed the caves. Or maybe that was just after the shock of the course - cave courses are simply not easy and nor should they be but the Mexican caves are stunning and your regarding them as dangerous places that simply should not be dived OC defies the experience of the vast majority including all the exploration work in Mexico which goes on today - where a three hour dive can be done on sixths and you have all the gas in the world.

Ah, we all really enjoyed the last dive which was post qualification, and I really enjoyed my two days afterwards. There were some dives towards the start of the course where we enjoyed them. I remember the grins after the first dive inside a cave proper - it's just that towards the end of the course we were focussed on the skills.

Janos

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Our 30min time was based on an ali80 with 200bar and a diver with a SAC of 25. We gas planned on 30SAC to add a safety margin.

So 6ths on twin 12s?
200 bar X 240 = 4800ltrs
Avg depth of dive 15m
SAC 30 X 2.5 = 75lpm
4800ltrs X 1/6 @ 75lpm = 10.67mins penitration
How is 10.67 mins better than 30?
On thirds you would have 21mins
We still have 30mins
200bar X 12 = 2400
2400 divided by 75 SAC = 32mins

Why do you feel the CCR bailout was limiting us beyond what an OC dive on 12 would?

The diver who imposed the limitation went on to do dive with 45mins on bailout?

Bailout wasn't so much of an issue on, I think we only turned one dive because of hitting bailout reasons. The rest of the time it was dil, the course, or kicking up the viz!

The dives I did post qualification were a) shallower (average depth of 7m in Dos Ojos for example,) so allowing me to extend bailout time and b) I was never less than 30 minutes from a cenote - on several of the dives we passed cenotes during the dive.

CC bailout is also different to OC bailout, in that you are not time limited when the RB is working. When Mark and I did the dive to pick up the reel after Howard's cell error, we swam quickly to maximum penetration, but then took our time coming back out, whereas when I dave with an OC diver, she wanted to plan on the same time coming in and out.

Janos