Drysuits

[Mdemon]

Cheers all - I did post a reply earlier, but someone seems to have eaten it...

I feel much like you do Ben, although I do agree with Bren about the safety aspect - if I hadn't been trained up by others who I trust, I would think hard about getting trained and paying for it.  I'm also well aware that around a third of fatalities have involved rapid, uncontrollable ascents recently.  Something cheerful to ponder...

But in my case, I've been "trained", and I've got the experience - and I would rather put my cash towards courses I have no knowledge about rather than something I've already done.  I'm sure there is a solution out there somewhere...

[andy2tanx]

As I said, I did the dry bag thingy on my Ow.  never got a card for it and never got asked for one.

[jjflash]

I'd say that drysuit training is almost essential however like most things in life some people take to its naturally and some don't but it certainly is a good thing to learn how to handle things when it goes Pete Tong.

As far as I know there is no legal requirement to dive with a bag but then theres no 'legal' requirement to dive either - it 'should' be hard or impossible to get the kit, esp air to do it but in reality how often do qualifications get checked when buying gear?

Remember too that PADI do not set the prices for courses - I can charge what I like to teach people and because I havn't got a shop to run and do it part time I dont 'think' I charge a lot. The only 'cost' (other than travel/air etc) is materials and a PIC card form PADI - what I want to make on the course is up to me ! For example, a mate of mine has helped out a lot as surface cover for me so I'll do Nitrox for him for the cost of the PIC and gas and he'll get something else thrown in too that way I get another couple of certs too ! As usual it's all down the standard of tuition.

Dive safe guys
Paul

[Billy the Kangaroo]

Re "Novices" in dry suits

PADI are recently very keen ( after a number of incidents ) about people doing Open Water training in dry suits and now wont allow it without an previous orientation session - any PADI Instructor teaching the way I was taught would voilate PADI standards - which is a big NO-NO.
Officially PADI Open Water students must do an orientation in dry suit in pool-like conditions before they hit open water wearing one.
I agree it must be more risky to do your pool sessions in T-shirt etc, then go out in Capernwray or wherever in dry suit, hood, gloves etc and expect to be able to do the skills required - Much too much - too soon for today's blame culture - although that's the way I was taught.

PADI would encourage its instructor to do an Adventure Dive ( e.g. dry suit ) immediately after your Open Water course to encourage you to book an Advanced Course.

However,if you do have already a PADI Open Water Certificate, then you may well have the type of PADI log book in which you can log your "Adventure Dives" - including Dry Suit.  
I expect if you had a PADI Dry Suit Adventure dive logged in your log book and signed by an instructor ( which means you will have basic skills and knowledge ), then a cautious skipper would feel he has some protection if you do come a cropper. If anyone wants any help arranging this, then give me a call/ message.

To collect a full PADI Dry Suit Speciality ( ie card ) you would need additional dives which is where the cost does become a possible issue.


(Edited by Billy the Kangaroo at 2:25 pm on Dec. 2, 2002)

[Phil Ennis]

Hello all, if you think that £75 is a lot of money for this course then take a look at this.
If I were to do the course for you I would meet you at Capernwray where you would pay for your entry and mine and the rescue divers ( HSE Requirement ) so that's £18 + two air fills each as two dives required, so that's another £15.
If I was lucky I could get away with slipping the rescue diver £10 and another £10 for the surface support ( HSE Requirement ). £15 for the video and manual £15 for the PIC (admin fee). My out of pocket expenses are £10 for fuel.
So if my maths are right that's £93 and I haven't made a penny yet and I am not a charity. I have a £450 oxygen kit sat there ( HSE Requirement ) that had to be paid for and then my annual HSE medical at nearly £100 my professional insurance at £160 a year.
Do you get the picture. So how much would you charge for this course if you were in my position? I am very interested to see  your replies.

(Edited by Phil Ennis at 9:34 pm on Dec. 2, 2002)


(Edited by Phil Ennis at 10:31 pm on Dec. 2, 2002)

[jjflash]

Exactly right Phil mate - that's why I dont do much any more - you cant make money on it and do a good job unless you are prepared to cut corners (safety gear, HSE etc) or have large group sizes - neither of which I'm prepared to do 'cos nobody wins. I know training at Capers is good 'cos I've done it with 'em but having worked other '5* centres' you can see the cost cutting straight awy and it doesnt't fill you with hope for what happens when the brown stuff hits the revolving object!

Dive safe
Paul

[Lou]

So, do the course in the sea, make sure that the rescue diver and surface support are members of staff and the air fills are from your shop compressor.  

Run the course for four divers or more at a time and then justify charging £80-£100 for what is nothing more than a pool session and a couple of escorted dives when done to the minimum requirement.

You will always struggle to make money on your own because you are paying someone else for facilities and back-up, and theat is the reality of commerce, but those with the resources *could* do it cheaper (and some do, to prove the point)

I think the general disenchantment is the whole philosophy of the "PADI Speciality".  To think that you have to show a bit of plastic/stamp to say you have done the Drysuit sepciality when, as Andy said, some folks are even taught it as part of OW is a bit galling!

[skener]

just as a follow on, i'm currently doing my novice divers course saa and we are nearly at the stage of the dry suit,which will be done in the pool, what i want to know is it best to buy your dry suit or just borrow-or hire one,just that with xmas etc. funds a bit tight, i,m definetly going to get one, just wondered if there is much difference in the way they operate between different manufacturers materials etc.

[Ben Harris]

When I was thinking about this there were two options.
1. Best to try and train in different suits - Neoprene & Membrane to safely learn different characteristics.

2. Learn in what your going to use.

Personally I did the second as I had the money to hand and I felt its better to learn in the suit you will use.

Might of been wrong. But know Im confident in a dry suit  (i use neoprene) it would not bother me to go into a membrane.

[Phil Ennis]

Lou,
You seem to have missed the point here. To do the course in the sea would involve more travelling and therefore more expense, saving the gate money at Capernwray doesnt solve the outgoings cost.
If the rescue diver and surface support are staff then they need a wage, which will be more than a £10 a day and I have to pay them even if there is no work.The shop compressor? Do you suggest I buy a compressor, it would take many years to get my money back on that, if ever, again airfills arent the problem.
Run the course for four divers, I personally wouldnt consider taking more than two students on a drysuit course, if they have problems which a lot do then I can only safely control two students. This course can be hard work unless you get students who are naturals, and then they are nice and easy.
I never do courses to the minimum requirement whatever you mean exactly by that, it is a good days work and a valuable learning experience for someone who has never dived a drysuit before.
The idea that I will struggle on my own because I have no resources, well the shops that have the resources still have to pay for them with lump sums or loans.
I wished to make the point when I posted this item that I have no idea how people do the course in the region of £75 as stated.
I did my Open Water and AOW in warmer climes so I did the drysuit speciality as I had to but also to LEARN how to use one. If you used a drysuit on your OW course then that is proof that you have training.
Think of it as an insurance policy to ensure that you dont miss out in the future on that dive trip when your suit rips and you need to hire one, its up to you whether you do or you dont.