Fish never Forget?

[Mr T.]

Fast-learning fish have memories that put their owners to shame
By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent
(Filed: 03/10/2004)

If you thought fish were cold, wet creatures who forget everything in three seconds flat, think again. Scientists have found they are fast learners, carry mental maps around in their heads - and can retain memories for months.

Swimming gormlessly around in their bowls or tanks, fish have long been dismissed as dunces compared with "higher" animals such as rats, cats, dogs and primates. This view is now being challenged by findings that could re-ignite the debate over the cruelty of angling. Tests on fish in aquaria at Oxford University have shown that despite their tiny brains, they possess cognitive abilities outstripping those of some small mammals.


Research suggests that fish can store memories for months [pitcure of goldfish removed]

Dr Theresa Burt de Perera made the discovery using blind Mexican cave fish, which rely on subtle changes in pressure to detect the presence of objects around them.

In experiments, Dr Burt de Perera found that the fish did more than merely avoid bumping into objects in their tank. They built a detailed map of their surroundings, memorising the obstacles in them within a few hours. Once stored in their brains, the fish used their "mental map" to spot changes in the obstacles around them - a feat that defeats hamsters.

In one test, involving obstacles arranged in a specific order, the fish proved capable of memorising the order and quickly spotted when Dr Burt de Perera swapped obstacles around.

According to Dr Burt de Perera, the findings - which appear in the current issue of the Proceedings of the Royal Society - show that fish are under-estimated.

"The public perception of them is that they are pea-brained numbskulls that can't remember things for more than a few seconds," she told the Telegraph. "We're now finding that they are very capable of learning and remembering, and possess a range of cognitive skills that would surprise many people."

Laboratory tests on other fish have found that they can store memories for many months, confounding the belief that they forget everything after a few seconds.

Dr Culum Brown at the University of Edinburgh has found that Australian crimson spotted rainbowfish, which learnt to escape from a net in their tank, remembered how they did it 11 months later. This is equivalent to a human recalling a lesson learnt 40 years ago.

Dr Burt de Perera's findings have been welcomed by fish-lovers as proof that their pets can do more than blow bubbles. "They are totally misunderstood," said Karen Youngs, the editor of Practical Fishkeeping. "We know from our readers that fish can recognise their owners, and some will go into a sulk if someone else tries to feed them."

Mrs Youngs added that the research may mean that fish-owners have to make their aquaria a bit more interesting for their occupants: "We know that fish such as oscars do enjoy having a table-tennis ball to bash about."

Mounting evidence for fish intelligence is likely to re-ignite the controversy over angling, which has focused mainly on whether fish can feel pain. "This research moves the debate along, by showing that fish aren't just swimming vegetables," said Dawn Carr, the director of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. "The more we find out about fish, the less likely people are to feel comfortable about impaling them on a hook for fun."

Anglers dismissed such views. "Their intelligence just adds to the interest - it would be awful if people were only catching fish that were stupid," said Rodney Coldron, a spokesman for the National Federation of Anglers. "I think it might attract more people to fishing, by showing it's more of an even contest."

[scubadog]

I do remember reading an article in a Angling Magazine, around 15 years ago...that fish lacked a nervous system in their mouths, and therefore could not feel the anglers hook. It mentioned nothing about fish being hooked in their stomachs, gills or any other part of their anatomy. Research with Carp, had proven that they may not eat for a few days after being caught, due to a high level of stress.
I would have thought that fish, or at least certain species of fish would have had a bloody great memory, when you take it to account that great schools of Hammerheads turn up to be cleaned...

[Mr T.]

Fast-learning fish have memories that put their owners to shame
By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent
(Filed: 03/10/2004)

If you thought fish were cold, wet creatures who forget everything in three seconds flat, think again. Scientists have found they are fast learners, carry mental maps around in their heads - and can retain memories for months.

Swimming gormlessly around in their bowls or tanks, fish have long been dismissed as dunces compared with "higher" animals such as rats, cats, dogs and primates. This view is now being challenged by findings that could re-ignite the debate over the cruelty of angling. Tests on fish in aquaria at Oxford University have shown that despite their tiny brains, they possess cognitive abilities outstripping those of some small mammals.

Dr Theresa Burt de Perera made the discovery using blind Mexican cave fish, which rely on subtle changes in pressure to detect the presence of objects around them.

In experiments, Dr Burt de Perera found that the fish did more than merely avoid bumping into objects in their tank. They built a detailed map of their surroundings, memorising the obstacles in them within a few hours. Once stored in their brains, the fish used their "mental map" to spot changes in the obstacles around them - a feat that defeats hamsters.

In one test, involving obstacles arranged in a specific order, the fish proved capable of memorising the order and quickly spotted when Dr Burt de Perera swapped obstacles around.

According to Dr Burt de Perera, the findings - which appear in the current issue of the Proceedings of the Royal Society - show that fish are under-estimated.

"The public perception of them is that they are pea-brained numbskulls that can't remember things for more than a few seconds," she told the Telegraph. "We're now finding that they are very capable of learning and remembering, and possess a range of cognitive skills that would surprise many people."

Laboratory tests on other fish have found that they can store memories for many months, confounding the belief that they forget everything after a few seconds.

Dr Culum Brown at the University of Edinburgh has found that Australian crimson spotted rainbowfish, which learnt to escape from a net in their tank, remembered how they did it 11 months later. This is equivalent to a human recalling a lesson learnt 40 years ago.

Dr Burt de Perera's findings have been welcomed by fish-lovers as proof that their pets can do more than blow bubbles. "They are totally misunderstood," said Karen Youngs, the editor of Practical Fishkeeping. "We know from our readers that fish can recognise their owners, and some will go into a sulk if someone else tries to feed them."

Mrs Youngs added that the research may mean that fish-owners have to make their aquaria a bit more interesting for their occupants: "We know that fish such as oscars do enjoy having a table-tennis ball to bash about."

Mounting evidence for fish intelligence is likely to re-ignite the controversy over angling, which has focused mainly on whether fish can feel pain. "This research moves the debate along, by showing that fish aren't just swimming vegetables," said Dawn Carr, the director of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. "The more we find out about fish, the less likely people are to feel comfortable about impaling them on a hook for fun."

Anglers dismissed such views. "Their intelligence just adds to the interest - it would be awful if people were only catching fish that were stupid," said Rodney Coldron, a spokesman for the National Federation of Anglers. "I think it might attract more people to fishing, by showing it's more of an even contest."

[abucksdiver]

We have the Victorian scientists to thank for the myth that Goldfish had a 3 second memory span...

The theory went sort of like this...

Mans brain weighs x, and he has a memory span of y years.... so each lb/kg of brain gives y/x years of memory...

Fish have a brain that weighs x1, so their memory span must be (y/x)*x1 = 3 seconds...

Also, this explains the saying "Elephants never forget..."

An Elephant, however, has a brain that weighs x2, so (y/x)*x2 = oh bugger, Elephants don't live that long, so they must remember everything!

(Apologies to any Mathematicians that instantly spot the errors in my calculations... Maths never was my strong point!)

Victorian Science at its best!

Regards
Andrew

[Paul Beal]

I am sure our fish can tell the time. We always feed them at 2000 and come that time they all start to collect at the top of the tank. If we even go near the draw the food is kept in at any other time of the day they do the same thing. There is certainly a limited amount of intellegence going on in there!

Paul

[Janos]

I used to have a few goldfish when I were a lad. Whenever I came close they use to rise up to the surface and exoect food. Not other people though. I think they recognised me.

Laters,
Janos

[CotoChris]

Originally Posted by Paul Beal

I am sure our fish can tell the time. We always feed them at 2000 and come that time they all start to collect at the top of the tank. If we even go near the draw the food is kept in at any other time of the day they do the same thing. There is certainly a limited amount of intellegence going on in there!

Paul

My grandad has an automatic feeder on his aquarium that turn on once a day. The fish were always waitting at that time, they knew that food was coming. The calssic was that sometimes thre was no food and the machined turned on the fish rushed to eat but there wasn't anything there, mighty annoyed fish

[Finless]

Originally Posted by Bren Tierney

Fast-learning fish have memories that put their owners to shame
By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent
(Filed: 03/10/2004)

If you thought fish were cold, wet creatures who forget everything in three seconds flat, think again. Scientists have found they are fast learners, carry mental maps around in their heads - and can retain memories for months.

In experiments, Dr Burt de Perera found that the fish did more than merely avoid bumping into objects in their tank. They built a detailed map of their surroundings, memorising the obstacles in them within a few hours. Once stored in their brains, the fish used their "mental map" to spot changes in the obstacles around them - a feat that defeats hamsters.

What a load of garbage - if the hamster can't hold its breath for very long it's not going to be able to learn its way around!

In one test, involving obstacles arranged in a specific order, the fish proved capable of memorising the order and quickly spotted when Dr Burt de Perera swapped obstacles around.

What - because the fish didn't swim into something proves it has a map in it's head!

Laboratory tests on other fish have found that they can store memories for many months, confounding the belief that they forget everything after a few seconds.

They have f/all else to do!

Dr Culum Brown at the University of Edinburgh has found that Australian crimson spotted rainbowfish, which learnt to escape from a net in their tank, remembered how they did it 11 months later. This is equivalent to a human recalling a lesson learnt 40 years ago.

Sussessful trial and error!

[fluice]

Originally Posted by Paul Beal

I am sure our fish can tell the time. We always feed them at 2000 and come that time they all start to collect at the top of the tank. If we even go near the draw the food is kept in at any other time of the day they do the same thing. There is certainly a limited amount of intellegence going on in there!

Paul

And as for the lobster... his escape attempts are becoming more and more sophisticated. I fully expect to come home one day to find that he's built a working lift out of the filter, bridge and a few kebab sticks. That's why we keep a 2kg weight on the lid of his tank!

[Lana_i_b]

Hi guys, I'm new!! My name is Lana and I'm a scuba instructor in New Zealand , have taught in oz for a couple of years and am now at uni as well.
I realise this discussion was a while ago, but I'm researching fish memories and am trying to find out exactly who came up with the "3 second memory" theory. Andrew has said it comes from Victorian scientists, which makes sense, but I can't find any actual names of the specific scientists or any documents stating that this is so. If anyone has any extra info it would be much appreciated - either post on here or send me an email lana_i_b@yahoo.co.nz.
Cheers
Lana