Lobsters and crabs cooked in boiling water feel no pain.

[John Gulliver]

Originally Posted by vulcan

I go even further and get mine from the fish counter at Sainsburys

I don't know about Sainsbury's but when I buy a lobster from my local fishmonger here in Sweden, I can buy it cooked or raw. I prefer to buy mine raw and cook them myself.

[Dr Stevil]

Originally Posted by Dominic

Not necessarily. Earthworms react to hot & dry conditions by trying to get away into damp & cool conditions. They also react to the flooding of their tunnels when it rains by crawling upwards.
Many organisms, including jellyfish and even plants, react to stimuli (plants lean towards the sun, the venus fly trap closes over insects, etc). No brain is needed to do so. An organism reacting to a stimulus that is bad for it cannot be construed as evidence of intelligence or the ability to feel pain.

IMHO.

All perfectly sound scientifically apart from:

Earthworms definitively have no brains nor any ability to feel pain.

Scientifically, not the whole picture. Most zoological scientists would probably agree that they don't sense what we would interpret as pain, but I know many many researchers who have worked on nervous systems and neuro-endocrine systems in Annelids (ie the "worm" taxonomic group ) and they regularly present the work in terms of worm "brains" even though is is only a collection of "ganglia"

[Dominic]

Oh, alright: In the sense that they do have a specialised cluster of nerves in one place, they DO have brains.

But in terms of having an organ that allows them to actually think or learn, which is what the normal, everyday understanding of 'a brain' is, they don't. The brain, I believe, helps to regulate and control their movement. Removing it doesn't actually cause them any major difficulties.

Maybe they should go into politics?

[tom]

Originally Posted by Dominic

But in terms of having an organ that allows them to actually think or learn,

errm... worms can learn. You can condition them anyway.

I'll give you the point about thinking though

[Janos]

All this reminds me of the headless chicken post that Woz put up a few days ago.

Laters,
Janos

[turbanator]

It's quite difficult, if they don't feel pain, why do live one try to get out of a pot?

If we say it's just because the think, " Mmm, this is a bit warm, it's not good for me, I'm off - but I'm not hurting", then we're probably giving them more credit than they deserve.

Pain is a pretty basic thing and works on a reflex level with us, if you put your hand on something hot, you pull it away before thinking about it.

So pain is pretty effective at making you remove yourself from a situation where you could come to harm.

r
Paul

[Bogwoppit]

Originally Posted by turbanator

So pain is pretty effective at making you remove yourself from a situation where you could come to harm.

Absolutley which is why I am twice Divorced! On a more serious note whether it does or does not feel pain is not the point. It MAY should be enough for most I think. Until the Scientists manage to turn themselves into Lobsters and boil themselves they simply don't know therefore they should err on the side of caution.

[tom]

Originally Posted by Bogwoppit

Until the Scientists manage to turn themselves into Lobsters and boil themselves they simply don't know therefore they should err on the side of caution.

I know this is a heretical suggestion, but we could really err on side of caution and not boil them at all! I'm sure the lobsters would prefer that.

[turbanator]

Originally Posted by tom

I know this is a heretical suggestion, but we could really err on side of caution and not boil them at all! I'm sure the lobsters would prefer that.

Good point, whether it hurts or not, it's not good for them!

[Dominic]

Until the Scientists manage to turn themselves into Lobsters and boil themselves they simply don't know therefore they should err on the side of caution.

By that logic, there's no conclusive proof that lobsters don't ENJOY being boiled alive, and therefore we should err on the side of caution and cook as many as possible