What the hell is going on?

[Finless]

The problem with this planet is there are too many humans on it - WILL YOU STOP BREEDING !!!!!!! Practise all you want of course.

Naturally, when I say you, I don't mean you, I mean YOU. Let me clarify that a bit more. It is like when I say "I" and I mean we.

[Norseman]

<font color='#0000FF'>Of course you're right, John. We're the only ones in step and we don't need the whale.
And I agree on the &quot;scientific approach&quot; crap. They should say something more like: &quot;We kill the whales we want because we want to and because we've always done so.&quot;

I just disagree with the cuteness-factor anti killing shown by so many.

I'll buy any sound argument against whale killing. Such as: &quot;Too few&quot;, &quot;no real value&quot;, &quot;killing methods are inhumane&quot; (Stupid word, I know.). &quot;You have the world against you and they will bomb you unless you stop&quot;. And such.

I do not purchase any argument including the words &quot;intelligent&quot;, &quot;cute&quot;, &quot;old fashioned&quot; or &quot;extra terrestrial&quot;

Soo.. in the end: My point was/is that one should clean in ones own back yard before one criticizes someone else for being tardy...

Meanwhile, let me add, I think we should stop killing the whales. For the right reasons. &nbsp;

Kyrre

[CotoChris]

<font color='#0000FF'>When the Japs kill whales for scientific research what are they researching about?

[John Gulliver]

And while we're at it, Kyrre, STOP KILLING OUR WOLVES!

For the uninitiated, we have a tiny residual population of wolves in central and northern Sweden. They were practically extinct a decade or so ago, having been persecuted by the laps (they kill a few of their reindeer) and sheep farmers for generations. The government has spent a lot of money trying to protect them (e.g. by paying the laps generously for lost reindeer, subisiding electric fencing round sheep farms etc etc) and their efforts have been rewarded - the population is slowly recovering. However, every now and then one of the wolves is foolhardy enpugh to cross the Norwegian border, resulting in a massive hunt, using helicopters and every possible resource, until they have killed it. Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!

[CotoChris]

<font color='#0000FF'>We use to have the same problem of wolves between the Portuguese and the Spanish. Fortunately there is a joint National park in the north of Portugal where the wolves can cross to Spain without much problem. Still there are too few of them, hope their population recovers.

[lizardfish]

<font color='#810541'>Norseman,

I agree that the cuteness factor is silly in addition to the intelligence debate. However, when you use the word tradition that makes me cringe.

Just because you have always done something doesn't mean it's still a good thing to do. Norway &quot;traditionally&quot; whaled way beyond sustainable means and nearly wiped out several species! Tradition doesn’t mean that it ever was a good thing to do and it doesn't give you automatic rights to do it.

Thieves have traditionally stolen, rapists raped, killers killed.

It was in white people's culture to treat black people like crap. It is part of the culture in some tribes of Papua New Guinea to carry out infanticide.

I hate the justification of any action if it has the word &quot;tradition&quot; in it.

I do however, think it is a very hard argument when dealing with the livelihood of communities in Norway, which rely on whaling and people who would be badly affected if it were completely banned. However, although whaling puts food in your mouth and cash in the bank and only depletes about 2% of the Minke whale stock, it still has a very cruel element to it. If you can kill them without extreme cruelty, which you CAN'T (http://www.noahonline.org/english/cruelty.htm),  I'd raise my glass to you over a whale meat feast.

Whaling is by far crueler to the animals concerned than the slaughtering of other wild animals for sustainable harvest.

So I am arguing against whaling on your terms, and I pointing out arguing for it with &quot;tradition&quot; for a reason like you have is also just as much BS as anyone saying they are too cute/ intelligent to kill

[Norseman]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (lizardfish @ Sep. 16 2003,17:55)]Just because you have always done something doesn't mean it's still a good thing to do. Norway &quot;traditionally&quot; whaled way beyond sustainable means and nearly wiped out several species! Tradition doesn’t mean that it ever was a good thing to do and it doesn't give you automatic rights to do it.

Thieves have traditionally stolen, rapists raped, killers killed.

It was in white people's culture to treat black people like crap. It is part of the culture in some tribes of Papua New Guinea to carry out infanticide.

I hate the justification of any action if it has the word &quot;tradition&quot; in it.

I do however, think it is a very hard argument when dealing with the livelihood of communities in Norway, which rely on whaling and people who would be badly affected if it were completely banned. However, although whaling puts food in your mouth and cash in the bank and only depletes about 2% of the Minke whale stock, it still has a very cruel element to it. If you can kill them without extreme cruelty, which you CAN'T (http://www.noahonline.org/english/cruelty.htm),  I'd raise my glass to you over a whale meat feast.

Whaling is by far crueler to the animals concerned than the slaughtering of other wild animals for sustainable harvest.

So I am arguing against whaling on your terms, and I pointing out arguing for it with &quot;tradition&quot; for a reason like you have is also just as much BS as anyone saying they are too cute/ intelligent to kill

<font color='#0000FF'>Now this is argumentation I can follow.

- Tradition: Agreed. Not a very valid argument in todays world.
But: Bringing slavery and infanticide into it doesn't do it. Neither the fact that you &quot;hate&quot; when tradition is mentioned as an argument. If I should follow your line of arguments I should ask people to stop celebrating Christmas, since I am not a christian.

- No communities live off whaling in Norway nowadays. There are about 35 whaling boats in action in Norway. So we don't use that as an argument. It is a very very small contribution to the Gross National Product to put it that way. The 500 or so whales killed annually give us meat and, honestly, scientific research about the migratory patterns and the eating habits of the mink whales. Of course this research is done to give us better knowledge about he whale in order to kill more of them.

- Your link is outdated and not valid. A bunch of biologists (Viggo Ree for instance) known for their animal rights commitments will hardly give you an unbiased view on the subject. Like said, an article from '94 does not reflect on todays whale killing, since the methods have changed with the introduction of the grenade harpoon. Let me add that the article was outdated even in '94, but that's irrelevant.
Research from '99 show that about 72% of the whales dies instantaneously from the first harpoon shot, performed with a combustible harpoon. An estimate is that between 75 and 80% of the whales do not feel any pain since they either die or loose their conscienceness from the first shot.

The governmental on board veterinarians have shown that about 10% of the whales need an additional shot with a rifle shot directly to the brain.

According to my information, which is an article written for the Norwegian Foreign Office in 2000, they introduced a new exploding harpoon in that year. The article says nothing about what improvements are made.

I would like to anyone to come up with a better &quot;instant killings&quot; number with regular livestock. Or any other hunting for that matters. I dare you.

Mine's a Merlot, my Reptilian Fish. &nbsp;

Kyrre

[Norseman]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (John Gulliver @ Sep. 16 2003,15:59)]And while we're at it, Kyrre, STOP KILLING OUR WOLVES!

For the uninitiated, we have a tiny residual population of wolves in central and northern Sweden. They were practically extinct a decade or so ago, having been persecuted by the laps (they kill a few of their reindeer) and sheep farmers for generations. The government has spent a lot of money trying to protect them (e.g. by paying the laps generously for lost reindeer, subisiding electric fencing round sheep farms etc etc) and their efforts have been rewarded - the population is slowly recovering. However, every now and then one of the wolves is foolhardy enpugh to cross the Norwegian border, resulting in a massive hunt, using helicopters and every possible resource, until they have killed it. Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!

<font color='#0000FF'>Couldn't agree with you more, John. The killing of stray wolves is a scandal and should never have been sanctioned. Farmers kill wolves and bears, and that is difficult to stop. But the fact that our Government has sanctioned, even participated in, the killing of wolves is very shameful.

I can only say I'm sorry &nbsp;

Kyrre

[lizardfish]

<font color='#810541'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Norseman @ Sep. 16 2003,19:22)]But: Bringing slavery and infanticide into it doesn't do it. Neither the fact that you &quot;hate&quot; when tradition is mentioned as an argument. If I should follow your line of arguments I should ask people to stop celebrating Christmas, since I am not a christian.

- No communities live off whaling in Norway nowadays. There are about 35 whaling boats in action in Norway. So we don't use that as an argument. It is a very very small contribution to the Gross National Product to put it that way. The 500 or so whales killed annually give us meat and, honestly, scientific research about the migratory patterns and the eating habits of the mink whales. Of course this research is done to give us better knowledge about he whale in order to kill more of them.

Not sure how your Christmas/ christian analogy is comparable with my tradition supporting human or animal suffering point. Maybe I wasn't clear in my original point. But, I hate (and what's wrong with saying I &quot;hate&quot; something?) it when people use tradition to justify something, which causes suffering. If you make pancakes on shrove tuesday every year because it's tradition, then fine. Just as long as you don't go and sling your hot pan into my face and then tell me that's tradition too. Do you get me?.... and I know someone is going to get me on the eggs and the creulty to the chickens to make the pancakes... ok ok it was a bad analogy but I can't think of another one right now.

I stand corrected about whaling techniques. That was the only link I could find without searching for hours on google although I remember reading something similar more recently but could not find that to reference... so apologies for that.

However, I am not really just talking about whaling in Norway, but whaling in general. The Japanese and Icelandic are not so effective in killing the whales instantly I believe. My issue really isn't with Norway alone.

I admit I do not know everything there is to know about whaling but....

There is recent news that a ban on whaling would damage communities in Norway - that's why I mentioned it as a way of saying how I respect that in some cases there are other factors to consider when talking about a ban on whaling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2326461.stm

are you saying this is BS?

and also there are valid arguments that it is not sustainable among other problems with whaling:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2988322.stm

I realise that not everything you read is true and often the mainstream media lies however, I find it hard to belive that their quotes and reporting on this subject is complete fiction.

So what do you think about these articles? I'd be interested to know.

I am still not really sure what I think about it myself after your points and my recent research into the topic. If you say it is humane, and sustainable while others disagree, then I guess I refrain from having a solid opinion on the matter.

At the end of the day if you don't really need to do it (like you say) and there are chances of it being cruel and unsustainable, I would say - don't do it. But there are swings and roundabouts to the debate and I was just annoyed that you brought tradition into it.

good to have the debate though and I am learning a lot from it.

As far as instant killings for other animals go. I am against the raising of livestock and caging of animals anyway, and am aware that the slaughter of these animals is not instant in many cases. I do not eat meat from animals which have been treated in this way or wear leather products. I used to be a vegan but now try be more of a considerate/ environmentally friendly consumer now rather than just eat any vegetables and think that that is somehow an earth friendly lifestyle.

[Lou]

Kyrre,

I can't get involved....I would piss off too many people! &nbsp;But suffice to say that lizardfish is doing a pretty good job and you have hit the nail on the head to point it back to us and fox-hunting. &nbsp;Just don't stop with fox-hunting, include hare-coursing, beagling and Staghounds too - they are often forgotten for the sake of an easier argument!!!!


See, now it all gets too political. &nbsp;I'm shoving my soap-box back under my desk! &nbsp;We'll fight it out face-to-face in Narvik some day....

Lou