A Good Case of "Jap-Slapping"

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by Mr T.

Some very good points here Sid!

Consider this conjecture:

Japan - a nation where 'face' (the potential losing of) is everything? Agreed?

OK.

Japan - a nation which has no natural resources (oil, gas coal etc.) and has to spend obscene amounts of money each year purchasing them from as many countries as will sell them to them? Still agree?

OK.

Japan - a country which will do all in its power to buy/cajole/pressure/bribe all the BFE countries to sell them their vote on the council so that they can get the break they are looking for in the whaling debate? Still agree?


OK.

Japan - finally sees that it is not getting its own way and 'goes it alone' and breaks away from the Whaling council and debate and continues to 'whale' at its leisure.

UN & World community finally says "enough's enough you twats..." (obviously said in uber-simpering diplomatic language) and says "Hey, remember that oil you wanted to buy from us? Well how does suck my Johnson sound? How will you fly your politicians around the globe on All Nippon Airlines with no aviation fuel?"

Can you think of any greater potential for a gov't losing 'face' than not being unable to feed and heat its population - or feed its transport system/power stations?

This of course applies to both Norway and Iceland - although frankly Norway can sit and file its nails and afford to wait it out, given the amount of oil they're floating on (at current estimates between 200 to 400 years' worth of reserves). Iceland's different - but their economy's about to over heat, so they might be more receptive to a UN 'come-on'.

Economics baby. Economics.

Sounds good in theory but I doubt the Saudis are going to refuse to sell them oil all over a few whales. Similarly, here in Aus, I wouldn't see BHP-Billiton or RTZ refusing to sell coal, nor Hammersley Iron over in WA stopping their iron ore. And the Federal Govt here won't force them, nor would a Labor Govt, not with hundreds of thousands of union members reliant on exports for their bread and butter, not to mention the people who rely on discretionary spending generated by full employment to make a living.

The only way it could ever work is through UN sanctions.

And the UN? That's really pie in the sky; has anyone not seen what's been happening in Darfour for the last 3 years or so? The most The UN has done is to agree on the wording of a definition. (Apparently, it is NOT genocide, so at least that's a relief!) Why? Because the Sudanese sell oil to China. After that, think about Rwanda, Kosovo and Bosnia - the UN did precisely zilch. If you want sanctions against Japan, or anyone else, you've got to go through the Security Council, where, Russia and China hold a veto (not to mention UK/France/USA), so it's not going to happen.

If the only thing standing between you and the murder/rape/enslavement of your family/people is the UN and the so-called "Community of Nations", then you might as well grind up the the sleeping pills in the hot chocolate and dig out the razor blades and get it over and done with - if you are very lucky, the UN may arrive just in time to dig you up and identify your sorry remains as an exhibit for the "never again" trial.

What is there to suggest a load of plankton eaters out beyond the furthest horizon would fare any better?

And that's always supposing that powerful governments are prepared to tear up World Trade agreements, throw millions out of work and totally screw their balance of payments, increase borrowing, push up interest rates, bring on mortgage foreclosures etc, so be careful what you wish for. I would hope my Govt wouldn't do anything so bleeding stupid.

As for the Japanese Govt "losing face" because of oil and food shortages; well the last time someone put an oil embargo on the Japanese causing lost face, they regained face, to some extent, by paying a visit to Pearl Harbour, shortly after which my wife's Grandad along with 60 odd thousand others spent 3 years as a PoW in Changi and on the Burma Railway; SE Asia and the Western Pacific were devastated and we finished up ending it with the world's only nuclear attacks.

At the end of the day, beyond the whaling issue, Japan is a good world citizen, providing huge amounts of "no strings" aid to Asian and other nations and doing a huge amount economically, diplomatically and militarily to keep peace and stability in a key region of the world.

Linking these sorts of issues with whaling is not really all that realistic..

RichardM

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by Ken

Here's a quote from a Japanese delegate:

"They try to frame this in terms of culinary imperialism, saying, 'The West is trying to tell us what to eat. We don't tell them not to eat pigs or lambs that we find cute, so why should they tell us not to eat whales?'

They said something similar on the news here, when an Australian reporter asked about how long it takes them to actually kill a whale once hit, to which the Japanese delegate retorted by asking how quickly kangaroos die when they are shot here for game/pet meat.

Well, when I used to shoot wallaby and the one time I actually shot an Eastern Grey kangaroo - about 1/2 a second actually, very fragile animals, they don't even hop. There is absolutely no comparison, it's a distraction and a complete furphy.

Richard M.

[Garf]

so if you nuked the whales it would be ok?

Just a thought.

[SoggyFox]

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

At the end of the day, beyond the whaling issue, Japan is a good world citizen, providing huge amounts of "no strings" aid to Asian and other nations and doing a huge amount economically, diplomatically and militarily to keep peace and stability in a key region of the world.

Linking these sorts of issues with whaling is not really all that realistic..

with all due respect, you don't bite the hand that feeds you and you'll do all you can to keep the deal sweat.

[calski]

Originally Posted by Garf

so if you nuked the whales it would be ok?

Just a thought.

Ah the Nelson Munz approach to conservation

ATB

calski

[Ken]

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

They said something similar on the news here, when an Australian reporter asked about how long it takes them to actually kill a whale once hit, to which the Japanese delegate retorted by asking how quickly kangaroos die when they are shot here for game/pet meat.

Well, when I used to shoot wallaby and the one time I actually shot an Eastern Grey kangaroo - about 1/2 a second actually, very fragile animals, they don't even hop. There is absolutely no comparison, it's a distraction and a complete furphy.

Richard M.

I have had my verbal matches with the Japanese. This was when I was a member of Greenpeace back in the late 70's. In the end, the Japanese reps. used a form of courtesy and diversion as primary methods (tactics) to move away from an uncomfortable discussion. Very little got accomplished diplomatically then, and now as experienced by folks at the IWC.

Really, the Japanese whaling industry could give a toss and the Japanese people do not openly challenge their representative government. Consider the "Harajuku" kids in Tokyo who wear the funkiest / loudest clothes possible, but when the bell rings to stop actually stop and go home. That's some rebellion!

[yazzyfooty]

Originally Posted by sidthejedi

I'll be surprised if the population of Japan ever become outraged enough by whaling to force the government to stand down from their position on the IWC. Phrasing that last part slightly differently, the Japanese delegates have backed themselves into such a corner that it would take an unprecendented response from the Japanese general public in order for them to be forced into such a huge loss of face.

Maybe the Japanese are finally saying they have had enough of whaling hence no longer eating 'scientific whale meat'. We as a nation tend to be loud and demonstrative when trying to make a point, as a general rule of thumb the Japanese are not. This maybe the quivalant of a Japanese' protest???

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

with all due respect, you don't bite the hand that feeds you and you'll do all you can to keep the deal sweat.

Sorry, I'm not sure I'm picking up what you are putting down on that one, what hand that feeds who?.

What I was trying to say is that we need to look at the big picture and recognise that there are other things happening out there besides whaling, (which I agree is abhorrent), but that there is some danger, when people are actually advocating these sorts of approaches, (which in other times and places has resulted in armed conflict) of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

So when you get pirates like the Sea Shepherd brigade advocating sinkings of whaling ships (and therefore killing their crews, as that is what a dip in the Southern Ocean amounts too), I sometimes wonder about their grip on reality too.

I wouldn't expect many people to support the concept of posses, vigilantism and lynchings back on dry land, and I really don't see the difference here.

[rickles23]

Just heard on the news:

Japanese delegate:

Whales should be culled because they eat too many fish...


Greenpeace:

Thats like blaming woodpeckers for de-forestation....

...

[soldave]

It's a shame to read about Japan wanting to restart commercial whaling, especially as the views towards it are very negative here in Okinawa. I've been talking about it with my students and my fellow teachers and they all agree that the whales should be left alone to go on their business. Hopefully the mainland politicians will see sense in the near future and realise what they are doing to the marine life.