does a wreck diver need cave training to dive caves?

[Drmike]

On another thread this question was asked

" I am curious as to why i need a cave diving certification to dive caves? I have been diving 17 years this Aug and I have penetrated loads of wrecks often only stopping when my 125m line ran out.

So why do I need a cave cert?"

The thread was closed so I was unable to make any comment so thought Id start a thread and share my perspective.

When I decided to start cave diving I did a cave course (despite having lots of time inside wrecks) The reason I did was the same reason I did CCR trimix course - because 'you don't know what you don't know until you know it'

Im glad I took the course as there was things to learn that I didnt know or didnt practice.


For example:

Wrecks are easier to find your way out of in a lost line situation because they are man made, the walls are always perpendicular or parallel to the ship. A corridor always leads somewhere - there is logic to the layout you can often follow to get out. A cave however is not so organized. There can be many irregular side passages that are dead ends or go deeper. There is no organized regular geometry in a cave to show the way to go. On a cave course you are taught to be aware of the direction of flow to aid navigation, and how you can use the natural formations in the cave floor (scalloping) to indicate direction of flow and thus the way out.

Also with a wreck penetration you may only be inside the wreck for 20 mins or so whereas often you are in an overhead when cave diving for hours at a time so;
when planning a cave penetration you plan a turn pressure for the O2 and dil - how many really do that when popping into a wreck??


I agree many (most) of the wreck penetration skills are transferable to cave
but there are some other things in cave training that is different, new or more emphasized. ...and it can be the little things (like knowing to look for scalloping) or knowing how the way you clip your reel to the line is used to indicate direction, that can save our lives when the sh1t hits the fan.

If someone came to me and said they wanted to learn how to penetrate wrecks I would likley suggest they do a cave course rather than a wreck course as it is far more intense and all encompassing.

Just my opion after having done both (quite frankly the IANTD wreck course was a joke! compared to the cave course)

[Spike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Drmike

I agree many (most) of the wreck penetration skills are transferable to cave
but there are some other things in cave training that is different, new or more emphasized. ...and it can be the little things (like knowing to look for scalloping) or knowing how the way you clip your reel to the line is used to indicate direction, that can save our lives when the sh1t hits the fan.

If someone came to me and said they wanted to learn how to penetrate wrecks I would likley suggest they do a cave course rather than a wreck course as it is far more intense and all encompassing.

Just my opion after having done both (quite frankly the IANTD wreck course was a joke! compared to the cave course)

I agree entirely that even experienced wreck divers should do a cave course prior to cave diving but I don't agree that anyone seeking wreck penetration skills should do a cave course, they should do a GOOD wreck penetration course, similar to the one run by Mark Powell for example. IMO a good wreck penetration course would cover all the relevant aspects of cave diving skills such as line laying and placement, fin techniques, silt out techniques, lost line drills etc. However the wreck course should also cover the hazards and skills specific to wrecks such as your example of using the wrecks structure to orientate yourself as well as hazards not normally found in caves eg sharp rusty edges, monofilamnet netting etc.
Just my 0.02. I've done the IANTD cave and TDi Cavern course but not a wreck course.

[Mark Chase]

I cant believe you actually asked about a turning pressure? On OC we ALWAYS ran thirds on penetration dives. YES we ALWAYS have a turning pressure.

I posted that and its out of context because I went on to say that the two discipline are separate and require separate training.

I have dived some easy caves and didn't find any difficulty in doing so. Obviously i used skills from wreck penetration to do so. I don't imagine for one moment that would qualify me to do a complex cave.

In the same way a cave diver can do simple penetration of shipwrecks but can a cave diver (who has no experience of wreck diving) cope with a complex wreck? Would they understand the problems associated with strong tidal currents and how it will affect their penetration plans or line laying procedures. Would they be able to orientate them selves inside the wreck. Are their cave diving rigs suited to wreck diving. Do they carry adequate equipment for a penetration dive? Are their line laying tatcis suited to the far more dynamic environmnet of a shipwreck?

I gave an example on another thread;

You and your buddy crawl through tangled wreckage to get to the engine room. A steel plate drops as you crawl through and blocks your exit. Your line is useless. Your in the engine room you can see the engine and the boiler. Which way do you go to find an exit?

A good wreck diver would know where the likely exit points are from the engine room.

Do wrecks collapse? Yes ask Paul Childes (Skipper of Defiant) about how the wreck collapsed on him during a dive, or on of my gas teem Trevor or read Gary Gentals account of an entire deck collapsing on the AD. One of the lads i sometimes see on the deep dive boats found the helm off the Moldavia. When he went back to get the rest of it the entire area had collapsed.

When Andyp and i dived the Zenobia something BIG fell down. We don't know what it was or where but we sure as hell herd it fall

Another good example is a diver who was on a wreck in busy shipping lanes. The dive was a MUST return to shot dive. He did his primary tie off near the shot and did the dive. When he got back to his primary tie the shot was gone. It hadn't been tied into the wreck and the tide had swept it off the wreck and out of sight. The actual weight had not moved. He didn't know what to do so he bagged off and was lost at sea for several hours swept away in a 2-3 knot current.

The simple fact is, put me an any cave and i will more than likely get out again. As long as nothing goes wrong. You follow the line in you follow the line out why is this hard? Its an OHE but so is a deco dive. A 3 hour cave dive is the same to me as a 3 hour deco dive. Going up is not really an option. However this doesn't make me a cave diver.

A cave diver can do any wreck as long as nothing goes wrong but that doesn't make him a wreck diver.

I am sorry your IANTD wreck course was taught by a bad instructor. However to write off wreck dive training on the basis of a crap instructor is not justified. Some instructors go through the motions and some really teach the discipline. You just have to sort out which one is which.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Ned Middleton]

Originally Posted by Spike Jackson

I agree entirely that even experienced wreck divers should do a cave course prior to cave diving but I don't agree that anyone seeking wreck penetration skills should do a cave course.

Absolutely right. The two environments are very different from each other and, whilst there may be certain similarities, it's a question of knowing precisely what you are getting into.

Ned

[Digger]

Well to be honest I've gone against the grain and not ended up doing courses in either, and have done both.

If I had to choose one course for both environments it would probably be a cave course. This is because cave divers always run a line. How many dives do we honestly run lines Mark? Are our line laying skills actually that great? I work on mine a lot, but do a decent enough job, and it's comparable to any of the other wreck divers I see, and a fair few who have been cave trained (though I've not met many of them) so I'm not too worried.

Basically wreck collapse you do what you can. It's about as bad as things can get, same is true of cave collapse I suppose, but then wrecks collapse much more quickly than caves! All you can do is keep searching, make a lot of noise so your team can try and get you out, and any hole you can you let the surface know with a yellow bag if you can, keep searching (in reality with the breather I have no doubt about my ability to get out somehow, it's just how long I have to spend searching, and how much deco I have as a result - but then if the surface knows I'm in there I can't imagine them leaving site, or at least coming back to it after a quick check to make sure I didn't disappear...)

Basically my advice is simple - if you want to penetrate wrecks find a decent instructor and do a course. If you want to go cave diving then find a decent instructor and go cave diving. I don't think "people" should do either without some training, but then I have done myself without and I have friends who I would happily take into either environment with a short briefing.

You can learn on a course, you can learn from experience. Experience is a dangerous method as you say Mike, you don't know what you don't know. But you do gain a lot from lots of different people instead of one way of skinning a cat from one person.

Digs.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Digger

. How many dives do we honestly run lines Mark? Are our line laying skills actually that great?
Digs.

We lay line on every Delta gig dive. I lay line on every low viz wreck dive now. So probably about 30 line laying dives a year. I think I am not too bad at the momnet but ask someone like Simon (Padowain) or Mdemon if you want and independent view on that.

At a guess id say i have done geting on for 100 line laying dives. Then there are dives like the engine room on the Zenobia where we folowed perminent lines or used basic wreck navigation skills and didnt bother with lines.

I have liad line in two caves the other cave dives i did had perminent lines in them. These can be confusing but we kept it simple, no left or right turns

ATB

Mark Chase

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

I cant believe you actually asked about a turning pressure? On OC we ALWAYS ran thirds on penetration dives. YES we ALWAYS have a turning pressure.

No I was talking about CCR turn pressure. Do you plan to turn your CCR wreck penetration dives using turn pressure?? Because you do when CCR cave diving.

I posted that and its out of context because I went on to say that the two discipline are separate and require separate training.


A cave diver can do any wreck as long as nothing goes wrong but that doesn't make him a wreck diver.

I fully agree and the same can be said for a wreck diver doing caves

Lets recall what started this it was this comment from you

" I am curious as to why i need a cave diving certification to dive caves? I have been diving 17 years this Aug and I have penetrated loads of wrecks often only stopping when my 125m line ran out.

So why do I need a cave cert?"

I have just given examples of why I dont agree with your comment above.

I am sorry your IANTD wreck course was taught by a bad instructor. However to write off wreck dive training on the basis of a crap instructor is not justified. Some instructors go through the motions and some really teach the discipline. You just have to sort out which one is which.

This comming from you of all people is f-ing classic! Everytime we discuss ccr trimix courses you cry that they are a waste of time beacuse you had a crap insructor/course - your being a bit of a hypocrite here.

You are putting words into my mouth.

I can think a cave course gives more without thinking wreck courses are crap (even though mine was)

I have seen enough cave divers almost get themselves killed diving in the sea and on wrecks to know fully well that the two worlds are different....and thats my whole point - remember it was you that said they were the same - albeit as you say now -out of context

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by Spike Jackson

I don't agree that anyone seeking wreck penetration skills should do a cave course, they should do a GOOD wreck penetration course,

Of course, but in the absence of such a course a cave course IMO is better than the average wreck course. From what Ive seen being taught on board and what Ive done. (this is assuming I have to say that the student is a sea diver and is learning how to dive wrecks not someone who has never done sea/wreck dives before) ie they are just learning about penetration skills as was the subject of the original question

I've done the IANTD cave and TDi Cavern course but not a wreck course.

Ive done IANTD cave, TDI wreck and IANTD wreck (sat in on training) and is what I formed my opinion on.

[Finless]

FFS, everybody goes on ....... Ok, SOME people go on about cave diving as if it is some black art!

Whats to know?

Rule of thirds.
Laying a line and fitting little placcie triangles.
One for one and f*ck the rest.
Requirement to have a death wish, be completely insane and the sort of person that would enjoy sleeping in a coffin with the lid closed ......

Ok .... familiarity with low viz and no light - sounds like a dive in the Channel.
Erm ......... not afraid of tight spaces - I get my gut in a dry suit every dive!
Side slung cylinders - big deal, I have side slung arms, what's so different?
Accurate gas planning? Easy, base the dive on 150 ltrs per minute.

Surely cave diving is just a way to cure constipation?



I wish I had some caves within a distance I am prepared to travel.

Also, I have this theory that there is a finite amount of insanity allowed in the world. Ergo, the more cave divers, free climbers and base jumpers there are then the less insanity there is left to go round for everyone else. End result, we need these people to make the World a safer place. HSE TAKE NOTE - ENCOURAGE PEOPLE AND STOP TRYING TO REGULATE THE DANGER OUT OF ........ everything.

[Mark Chase]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Drmike

No I was talking about CCR turn pressure. Do you plan to turn your CCR wreck penetration dives using turn pressure?? Because you do when CCR cave diving.

No because my inwater exposure is less than three hours. Turn pressure is not relevant its scrubber duration that dictates the dive. Remember also we have 3ltr steel 235bar tanks and you use 2ltr 200bar alis (I think). On a wreck you don't normally have up and down profiles that eat through diluent so its not relevant.

Lets recall what started this it was this comment from you

Yes but its out of context because it was a sarcastic remark made as part of a statement that ended Of Course NOT Cut and paste the rest of it and it makes sense.

This coming from you of all people is f-ing classic! Everytime we discuss ccr trimix courses you cry that they are a waste of time because you had a crap instructor/course - your being a bit of a hypocrite here.

My CCR trimix course was a total waste of time because I learned nothing that i hadn't already learned on my excellent TDI trimix course and my excellent TDI CCR mod 1 course. To the point where the exam paper and the training manual were exactly the same as my OC TDI trimix course.

The waste of time comment is limited exclusively to the TDI Mod 3 training course syllabus and I have not changed my mind on that subject.

You are putting words into my mouth.

You said the course was inadequate so I don't see why I am guilty. I would expect a Technical wreck diving course to cover all aspects of wreck diving and penetration and cover them well. If it doesn't then the course is week or the instructor is week.

Can you summarize what areas you wreck diving course was week in that were covered by the cave course?

I have seen enough cave divers almost get themselves killed diving in the sea and on wrecks to know fully well that the two worlds are different....and thats my whole point - remember it was you that said they were the same - albeit as you say now -out of context

I did NOT say they were the same, I was reacting against a diver who suggested we should do a cave diving course to enable us to penetrate wrecks. I think this is totally wrong.

ATB

Mark Chase

Originally Posted by Guy Wallis
Aha

Thanks for the support! I have been diving in the UK since 1983 and am well aware of the hazards of UK wreck diving and wreck penetration. I have only been cave diving for a little over 10 years but honestly feel that many of the skills covered in the cave syllabus are relevant to any form of scuba or tech diving - especially diving in bad vis and penetrating wrecks (intentional or otherwise).
Clearly my comments and thoughts were not well received by those directly involved. A shame as my only purpose was to try and reduce the chances of the same mistake being made again.

As for the earlier offer to dive the Scylla - no thanks it's got big holes in the side and I'd only ever dive it for teaching!

Guy


Guy I am curious as to why i need a cave diving certification to dive caves? I have been diving 17 years this Aug and I have penetrated loads of wrecks often only stopping when my 125m line ran out.

So why do I need a cave cert?

I remember i put up a post about an incident that occurred in the arse of a cave in 90m of water and i got no end of flack from cave divers about the fact I was unqualified to dive them. However I found it just as easy (frankly easier) to get out of the cave than i found getting out of a ship wreck.

If a cave cert/training in your opinion qualifies me to dive in a wreck why doesn't a wreck cert qualify me to dive in a cave?

If a cave diver put up a post about an incident in a cave and i replied "what you need is a good wreck penetration course" would you agree with me?

I don't think so.

If you want to learn wreck penetration skills take a wreck penetration course from someone who understands ships, their construction, and has a lot of experience diving wrecks.

ATB

Mark Chase