View Full Version : So is this compliant then?



ElvisTheKing
16-02-11, 10:47 AM
UTD Delta System:

Delta System - Back Mount Diving - Unified Team Diving (http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/page/delta-system-back-mount)

:popcorn:

johnkendall
16-02-11, 10:50 AM
UTD Delta System:

Delta System - Back Mount Diving - Unified Team Diving (http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/page/delta-system-back-mount)

:popcorn:


Nope.

HTH
John

SML
16-02-11, 10:52 AM
No top dump ????

Woz
16-02-11, 10:54 AM
How do you dump gas from the wing when you're vertical?

ElvisTheKing
16-02-11, 10:56 AM
Nope.

HTH
John

But UTD == DIR?

ElvisTheKing
16-02-11, 10:57 AM
How do you dump gas from the wing when you're vertical?

Upside down is still vertical?

BJ
16-02-11, 11:17 AM
The demonstrator has obviously put the wing the wrong way up on the tank. I saw this happen once on a cattleboat in Cayman. :)

Mal Bridgeman
16-02-11, 11:23 AM
I love the way UTD challenge accepted thinking and look to new and innovative ideas to see whether improvements can be made to that accepted thinking.

I worry about their benefits assessment of said innovations though ..... "if it ain't broke .........."

Mal

NotDeadYet
16-02-11, 11:24 AM
But UTD == DIR?

No, UTD=how to make money out of gullible people. As David Mamet once wrote, they could f**k up a baked potato.

Good to see Harpo & Chico are still hard at it.

The manufacturer is just the product not the system. Halcyon used to make wings designed for the Mk15, doesn't make it DIR.

Two Hats
16-02-11, 11:32 AM
No, UTD=how to make money out of gullible people.

I thought that was AD?

NotDeadYet
16-02-11, 11:37 AM
I thought that was AD?

It's a broad church.

big si
16-02-11, 11:38 AM
people with crap trim will be fooled into buying it, IMO its horible

Two Hats
16-02-11, 11:40 AM
people with crap trim will be fooled into buying it, IMO its horible

I can't even see it, as their site has all sorts of images being blocked by work. Probably for the best, if it's anything like their sidemount 'system'

ElvisTheKing
16-02-11, 11:42 AM
people with crap trim will be fooled into buying it, IMO its horible

But surely if you have crap trim then it will be even harder to use?

piling pete
16-02-11, 11:58 AM
If you have crap trim you will just bob about on the surface out of harms way
Pete

Paul_c
16-02-11, 12:00 PM
elvis. dont go down to the dark side, be stroky. and learn to side sling a goody bag.

Digger
16-02-11, 12:06 PM
I don't often say this about a piece of kit. But genuinely. WTF.

That thing actually looks dangerous. A rapid ascent, vertical, would be fatal unless you could get yourself head down. At that point your drysuit boots inflate, carrying you skyward, you can get air out of your wing but not your suit, you flip over to get the gas out of your suit and you can't dump from your wing.

Utter car-crash design. No end user testing, allowing an engineer to come up with ideas without any input from the people who are going to be using it. If an actual diver was involved in this, they deserve to have their cert cards taken away and publically flogged as a lesson to others.

As they say, in this office no idea is a bad idea. That doesn't make yours a good one.

Digs.

big si
16-02-11, 12:19 PM
I don't often say this about a piece of kit. But genuinely. WTF.

That thing actually looks dangerous. A rapid ascent, vertical, would be fatal unless you could get yourself head down. At that point your drysuit boots inflate, carrying you skyward, you can get air out of your wing but not your suit, you flip over to get the gas out of your suit and you can't dump from your wing.

Utter car-crash design. No end user testing, allowing an engineer to come up with ideas without any input from the people who are going to be using it. If an actual diver was involved in this, they deserve to have their cert cards taken away and publically flogged as a lesson to others.

As they say, in this office no idea is a bad idea. That doesn't make yours a good one.

Digs.


i think youve hit the nail on the head, im imagining a panicked diver heading for the surface like an exocet missile unable to dump

NotDeadYet
16-02-11, 12:29 PM
i think youve hit the nail on the head, im imagining a panicked diver heading for the surface like an exocet missile unable to dump

It's UTD's philosophy all over. Create something that's different just for the sake of being different. Don't offer any benefits other than "different". Don't think it through. Offer a load of spurious courses to train anyone daft enough to want "different" over "better". Sell a load of cheaply made "specialist" kit to accompany the course.

Rebreathers, sidemount, backmount, you name it, they'll find a way to cock it up, make it overly complex or both. But at least it's different.

Play a load of new age music over some videos full of babble.

johnkendall
16-02-11, 12:30 PM
But UTD == DIR?

If you say so.

Mal Bridgeman
16-02-11, 12:35 PM
But UTD == DIR?

I think the correct mathematical expressions are GUE >> DIR & DIR /= UTD ;)

42
16-02-11, 12:43 PM
I think the correct mathematical expressions are GUE >> DIR & DIR /= UTD ;)

i thought it was more.........=

Garf
16-02-11, 12:48 PM
UTD Delta System:

Delta System - Back Mount Diving - Unified Team Diving (http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/page/delta-system-back-mount)

:popcorn:

No. no.no. A thousand times no. I applaud UTD for constantly challenging assumptions and accepted wisdom. But sometimes....

Woz
16-02-11, 12:54 PM
Maybe UTD should offer to realign my chakras first then maybe some crystal healing.

Tsk this new Age Diving is rubbish. Much better is the Gregorian chanting, illuminated manuscripts and meditative prayer practised before every dive by the Brotherhood of Underwater Monks. We also preach the Loop of Sanctity and very soon, once it has been tested by Brother Janos, we will be releasing our Sulawesi Fisherman Deco Tables. Involving the Hoses of Entanglement and Advanced Deco Massage Techniques.

All Hail the Mighty ZOM

Paul Burgess
16-02-11, 01:04 PM
It seems to overlook the case that 'right' trim is not always horizontal.

Other than the inflator accident-waiting-to-happen, some of the ideas might have a bit of merit. I haven't been worried by a 'taco' wing before but that's not to say some sort of improvement can't be made. However I wouldn't fancy doing a test run in one of these to test the theory out.

edward
16-02-11, 02:03 PM
perhaps use it upside-down? :)

1693
16-02-11, 02:28 PM
I love the way he keeps looking around as if he's expecting the cops to bust him at any minute

5487
16-02-11, 03:55 PM
Transcript from part of the video:

Youtube Account "andrewgeorgitsis"
Video "UTD Equipment Blog - Delta System"

"All right, so now we have set it up, one of the things I want to talk about really quickly, is that I want you to hone in, I want you to take a look how we have incorporated all of our UTD, DIR slash configuration into it."

Mal Bridgeman
16-02-11, 04:00 PM
Transcript from part of the video:

Youtube Account "andrewgeorgitsis"
Video "UTD Equipment Blog - Delta System"

"All right, so now we have set it up, one of the things I want to talk about really quickly, is that I want you to hone in, I want you to take a look how we have incorporated all of our UTD, DIR slash configuration into it."

Aha - as with so many things in life, it's less about how you view yourself and more about how you are viewed by others .....

5487
16-02-11, 04:04 PM
True,

He also goes on to say it is designed to dump in the horizontal but will work pefectly in the vertical but surely the air trapped in the top of the wing won't go to the bottom of the wing and go out of the corrugated inflator hose, it will just stay in the top of the wing making it undumpable?

Wouldn't be an issue if you have perfect flat trim, but bulk of normal divers I know go head up slightly at some point on the ascent which would just mothball a problem and as mentioned earlier cause ascent issues,

BJ
16-02-11, 04:09 PM
I've seen divers doing feet-first ascents (with their fins popped off)!

Pioneer 10
16-02-11, 05:29 PM
True,

He also goes on to say it is designed to dump in the horizontal but will work pefectly in the vertical but surely the air trapped in the top of the wing won't go to the bottom of the wing and go out of the corrugated inflator hose, it will just stay in the top of the wing making it undumpable?

I wondered if there was an internal hose leading from the bottom inflate/dump to the top to vent the air?

Still don't fancy it one bit!

Mike Phillipson
16-02-11, 05:54 PM
If they did a bigger one with bungees on it i'd buy it..

don
16-02-11, 06:37 PM
I love the way UTD challenge accepted thinking and look to new and innovative ideas to see whether improvements can be made to that accepted thinking.


+1

Right then hands up - who's actually dived one?.........................deathly silence?

I see a lot of conjecture but little fact, there are a number of reputable cave divers using standard wings upside-down so that the inflator runs up alongside the body rather than over the shoulder.

GUE <> DIR <> UTD

The guys who "invented" DIR came from NSS-CDS and NACD

ElvisTheKing
16-02-11, 06:41 PM
I see a lot of conjecture but little fact, there are a number of reputable cave divers using standard wings upside-down so that the inflator runs up alongside the body rather than over the shoulder.

So the kidney dump would then be at the top? So unlike this wing there actually would be a way to dump if you were vertical.................

don
16-02-11, 06:49 PM
So the kidney dump would then be at the top? So unlike this wing there actually would be a way to dump if you were vertical.................

Indeed but you can dump the majority of the gas from the LP inflator hose on this style, this should slow you down enough to be able to regain horizontal/inverted to dump the rest if you really needed to.
What circumstances are you envisaging causing this polaris style ride to the ceiling/surface? A runaway inflator? I can tell you from personal experience it's a damm site harder to try and dump from the rear left dump valve and disconnect the upper left inflator (see two places to have your left hand at the same time) on a Halcyon wing - because the LP inflator doesn't have the pull to dump feature like other wings - something I re-installed into mine.

BSH
16-02-11, 06:51 PM
+1

Right then hands up - who's actually dived one?.........................

Andrew Georgitsis has posted a response to a similar thread on Scubaboard and can confirm he has extensively tested it although a rapid ascent didn't seem to feature in the testing process - at least he didn't mention it.

Bet it would still get an 8 in a Diver review ;)

ElvisTheKing
16-02-11, 06:53 PM
Indeed but you can dump the majority of the gas from the LP inflator hose on this style, this should slow you down enough to be able to regain horizontal/inverted to dump the rest if you really needed to.
What circumstances are you envisaging causing this polaris style ride to the ceiling/surface? A runaway inflator? I can tell you from personal experience it's a damm site harder to try and dump from the rear left dump valve and disconnect the upper left inflator (see two places to have your left hand at the same time) on a Halcyon wing - because the LP inflator doesn't have the pull to dump feature like other wings - something I re-installed into mine.

TL;DR

What has any of that got to do with a standard wing having a dump at the top AND bottom (wether it's the "right" way up or not) rather than this one that has only got 2 at the bottom?

BJ
16-02-11, 06:56 PM
Bet it would still get an 8 in a Diver review ;)

It wouldn't get reviewed! I'm not endangering myself with anything so daft!

don
16-02-11, 07:00 PM
TL;DR

What has any of that got to do with a standard wing having a dump at the top AND bottom (wether it's the "right" way up or not) rather than this one that has only got 2 at the bottom?

???

A "standard Halcyon" wing doesn't have a "dump" at the top and bottom, the pull cord is not installed in a Halcyon thus you are reliant upon pressing the "deflate" button, furthermore you need to get the deflate above your head to expel gas i.e. go towards vertical/drop your feet - not always an easy thing to do in a cave/wreck.

I think I've adequately explained why the delta system doesn't need an dump at the top. I'll ask again - have you dived one? So how do you know it doesn't work?

(I'm not sure why everybody is so worked up about the majority of the lift being at the hips, this is exactly why Halcyon went to donut shape and very similar to the Torus wing and a number of sidemount bouyancy devices)

12480
16-02-11, 07:00 PM
I like it....







...just me then?.....

don
16-02-11, 07:06 PM
I like it....
...just me then?.....

Oh bugger I'm agreeing with BTS! Next thing I'll be eating black pudding and wearing a bloody cap.

ElvisTheKing
16-02-11, 07:12 PM
???

A "standard Halcyon" wing doesn't have a "dump" at the top and bottom, the pull cord is not installed in a Halcyon thus you are reliant upon pressing the "deflate" button, furthermore you need to get the deflate above your head to expel gas i.e. go towards vertical/drop your feet - not always an easy thing to do in a cave/wreck.

So because you have to press a button rather than pull a bit of string, you don't consider that a dump, wow if you have to go pedantry of that length you really must think your argument is pretty weak!


I think I've adequately explained why the delta system doesn't need an dump at the top. I'll ask again - have you dived one? So how do you know it doesn't work?


Erm no, no you haven't you've said cave divers sometimes dive with normal wings upside down, but as I pointed out there is still a way to "dump" gas (see what I did there) from both the top and bottom, where as with this......



(I'm not sure why everybody is so worked up about the majority of the lift being at the hips, this is exactly why Halcyon went to donut shape and very similar to the Torus wing and a number of sidemount bouyancy devices)

Erm not sure anyone even mentioned that, so if we are just throwing random thoughts about now to support our argument, well I win because the sky is blue, water is wet and grass is green there you go 3 completely unrelated facts to support my argument guess it's 3-1 on that score..............

don
16-02-11, 07:14 PM
So because you have to press a button rather than pull a bit of string, you don't consider that a dump, wow if you have to go pedantry of that length you really must think your argument is pretty weak!

I really don't have the patience to argue with a dickhead!

Mal Bridgeman
16-02-11, 07:16 PM
It wouldn't get reviewed! I'm not endangering myself with anything so daft!

You actually try the stuff? :omg:

ElvisTheKing
16-02-11, 07:18 PM
I really don't have the patience to argue with a dickhead!

That's OK I do.

Air Guzzler
16-02-11, 07:30 PM
Come on guys Elvis only asked a simple question just because the lad went past the point

http://thelintinmypocket.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/no-stupid-people1.jpg?w=197&h=300

does not mean we should

http://www.theofficialjohncarpenter.com/data/movies/stills/thst09.jpg

I think a little

http://i35.tinypic.com/25ft4wz.gif

is more in order

iainmsmith
17-02-11, 07:03 AM
It wouldn't get reviewed! I'm not endangering myself with anything so daft!

My goodness - that may be the first JB review with which I agree wholeheartedly!

I.

1693
17-02-11, 08:50 AM
I like it....I wouldn't knock it until I tried it. It certainly looks neat, although I can't see myself getting quite as excited as AG over it :D

Having said that, a 30lb Eclipse was virtually unnoticeable in the water and I never found myself fretting about the tacoing.

David
17-02-11, 09:43 AM
UTD Delta System:

Delta System - Back Mount Diving - Unified Team Diving (http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/page/delta-system-back-mount)

:popcorn:

hang on compliant with what... it dont look very DIR but thats only my version of DIR and LIKE UTD I am able to think for myself... no I would not use it

Digger
17-02-11, 10:02 AM
???

A "standard Halcyon" wing doesn't have a "dump" at the top and bottom, the pull cord is not installed in a Halcyon thus you are reliant upon pressing the "deflate" button, furthermore you need to get the deflate above your head to expel gas i.e. go towards vertical/drop your feet - not always an easy thing to do in a cave/wreck.

I think I've adequately explained why the delta system doesn't need an dump at the top. I'll ask again - have you dived one? So how do you know it doesn't work?

(I'm not sure why everybody is so worked up about the majority of the lift being at the hips, this is exactly why Halcyon went to donut shape and very similar to the Torus wing and a number of sidemount bouyancy devices)

Don, that's not really true. You don't have to get the inflator above your head to expel gas, you just reach back to your left hip and pull the cord. It expels gas. Alternatively you can lift the inflator if you are in a vertical position, agree you can't pull on the inflator or a pull dump on the top of the wing, but pressing the deflate button on the inflator will do the job fine. You don't need to move your feet anywhere, remain completely horizontal and raise your left hand with the inflator in it - press the deflate button and gas will come out, you've only got to get it fractionally above the height of the fitting on the wing and gas will come out just fine.

I have no problem whatsoever with the shape of the wing. I have a problem with a vertical asecent - just imagine being in a tight passage of cave or wreck that ascends vertically - how are you going to get up that without going horizontal or shooting upward at increasing speed?

I honestly don't mind where people have their LP inflator. What I do need is dump valves that can be accessed quickly at both ends of the wing, whether that is a pull dump or the inflator hose with button pressed.

Digs.

BJ
17-02-11, 10:26 AM
"but pressing the deflate button on the inflator will do the job fine."

This is actually 'the oral inflation valve' and will let water back in the other way. Just because the first Fenzy only had this system, it has been ingrained in training ever since.

PBrown
17-02-11, 11:08 AM
... you need to get the deflate above your head to expel gas i.e. go towards vertical/drop your feet

Or you could just roll very slightly.


not always an easy thing to do in a cave/wreck.


just imagine being in a tight passage of cave or wreck that ascends vertically - how are you going to get up that without going horizontal or shooting upward at increasing speed?

Playing devils advocate, it's a recreational, single tank wing. Personally I wouldn't be inside a cave with only a single cylinder, and would not be doing more than simple swim-throughs in a wreck.

Mind you, neither would I use a wing which didn't have a dump at both the top & bottom, I don't like doing a duck dive to leave the surface.

cheers,
Paul

don
17-02-11, 06:48 PM
you've only got to get it fractionally above the height of the fitting on the wing and gas will come out just fine.


digs, agreed........on a normal dive
and as somebody pointed out below, a shoulder roll would also improve the gas flow out, however the scenario being painted as rocketing ascent, I asked due to what? - a stuck open inflator? In this case the rate or gas loss has to be pretty quick before you bump your head - when it happened to me, I was able to maintain bouyancy using the lower rear dump valve, but when I let go and used the "deflate" (or as BJ rightly identifies the oral inflate) so that I could pull off the LP hose I wasn't losing gas quickly enough - even having held hose high above my head.

To try and answer your hypotheical, I would hope that I'd realised I was about to ascend a vertical restriction and pre-empted the situation by dumping gas before going into the vertical move (or more probably I'd have jammed my knees and elbows against the side)

But my main point stands, it got a good slagging becuase it was AG & UTD not because anybody had actually tried one.................which in itself suggests it's maybe not a great product. :-)

iainmsmith
18-02-11, 05:21 PM
It got a good slagging becuase it was AG & UTD not because anybody had actually tried one.................which in itself suggests it's maybe not a great product. :-)

Or maybe it got a good slagging because it blatantly deserved it?

Another couple of issues which would make it "non-compliant" and/or daft:
1) Non-standard direct feed hose length needed.
2) Inflator now in a non-standard position.
3) HTF do you do any form of diver rescue? AFAIK all the mainstream rec agencies teach rescue with both rescuer and casualty vertical. Not sure about GUE Rec1/3, but T1 and C1 & C2 all teach horizontal rescue with the rescuer "riding" the casualty...with the left hand on the casualty's inflator...which is now in the wrong place.

I have no idea what UTD were thinking of and/or smoking - this doesn't work with any standard system and is totally lacking the consistency of equipment and skills common to all forms of diving that DIR (of whatever flavour) espouses.

Iain
PS - IMO, this beats "monkey diving", though is possible a half-step less stupid than the Mares HUB, with its nicely concealed AAS.

12480
18-02-11, 05:36 PM
Or maybe it got a good slagging because it blatantly deserved it?

snip..blahblahblah...snip



I feel that is people cannot adapt to anything other than standard equipment then they are not a well rounded diver. If people cannot work out how to rescue a casualty wearing kit other than that they are trained in...they are not a well rounded diver, if everything needs to be standard for people to understand and accept it then they should not be diving.....

Lou
18-02-11, 06:19 PM
I love the way UTD challenge accepted thinking and look to new and innovative ideas to see whether improvements can be made to that accepted thinking.

I worry about their benefits assessment of said innovations though ..... "if it ain't broke .........."

Mal


. I applaud UTD for constantly challenging assumptions and accepted wisdom. But sometimes....


Is this mantra taught on GUE courses now? :)

James-S
18-02-11, 06:27 PM
Don, just to check, are you actually being serious? A genuine question, it is friday after all...

Paul Burgess
18-02-11, 06:34 PM
"but pressing the deflate button on the inflator will do the job fine."

This is actually 'the oral inflation valve' and will let water back in the other way. Just because the first Fenzy only had this system, it has been ingrained in training ever since.

I've done a bit of testing on this theory and found that I got more water on dives where I just used the OPV dump and barely any in on dives where I exclusively used the oral inflation valve.

don
18-02-11, 06:46 PM
Don, just to check, are you actually being serious? A genuine question, it is friday after all...

James,
firstly, my initial response was not posted on Friday,
secondly, link this to the sock puppet thread (just because the majority shout loudest doesn't mean they're shouting the truth - ask the lemmings)
thirdly, as I said the inverted wing is a technique used by some notable pioneers
fourthly, please please at your age - challenge convention, if you don't know, don't ask somebody boring old bastard, get out there and try it for yourself
finally, have you tried one? no thought not, so give me five reasons why this isn't an acceptable tool for a particular job?

or bugger off out, it's Friday and you should be drinking White Diamond and annoying the poor unfortunates who bought houses overlooking the park

NotDeadYet
18-02-11, 06:46 PM
it got a good slagging becuase it was AG

Surely that's reason enough?

Mal Bridgeman
18-02-11, 06:47 PM
Is this mantra taught on GUE courses now? :)

Clearly Garfie looks to me for inspiration ........................







not!
Mal

ElvisTheKing
18-02-11, 07:49 PM
secondly, link this to the sock puppet thread (just because the majority shout loudest doesn't mean they're shouting the truth - ask the lemmings)


Ahh so we are all now sock puppets now, right......



thirdly, as I said the inverted wing is a technique used by some notable pioneers

Inverted NORMAL WING with ways to dump gas FROM BOTH ENDS (it's like talking to a foreigner)


finally, have you tried one? no thought not, so give me five reasons why this isn't an acceptable tool for a particular job?

I give you one but five times hopefully around the 3rd or 4th your'll actually get it (although prior evidence suggests not)
You can't dump when vertical.

You can't dump when vertical.

You can't dump when vertical.

You can't dump when vertical.

You can't dump when vertical.

James-S
18-02-11, 08:03 PM
Don, I love to challenge convention more than anyone, but how can you think this is a good idea? When vertical you can't dump, so you would quickly have an uncontrolled ascent going on, and if you then quickly invert yourself so you can dump, you then can't dump from your drysuit. And as Elvis has said, even when you invert a normal wing, you still have a dump at the top. Just because I haven't tried it doesn't mean that it's not pants.

don
18-02-11, 08:14 PM
Don, I love to challenge convention more than anyone, but how can you think this is a good idea? When vertical you can't dump, so you would quickly have an uncontrolled ascent going on, and if you then quickly invert yourself so you can dump, you then can't dump from your drysuit. And as Elvis has said, even when you invert a normal wing, you still have a dump at the top. Just because I haven't tried it doesn't mean that it's not pants.

James - I didn't say I thought it was a good idea, I said it has merits and should be tried (or even thought through) before jumping on the anti AG/UTD bandwagon. I hardly need ETK to point out the bloody obvious to me - I've dived an inverted wing! Where's all this uncontrolled ascent crap coming from - this is not a wing for an OW with five dives! I've had one and that was my own bloody fault for stretching the time between servicing the inflator - even though I saw it was bubbling.

Frankly if you can't dump enough gas to regain control of your trim you deserve to bang your head! (In the case of some people it might stop them posting utter shite!)

pieater
18-02-11, 08:20 PM
You can't dump when vertical.

Yes you can, but it needs to be vertical feet first. Which will then give you a bit of an issue with the suit.

I did notice a comment earlier about a Halcyon wing. This has probably been picked up, but you absolutely can vent a Halcyon wing when vertical (in either orientation).

No competent diver needs a pull dump on the inflator hose. I'm barely competent and I've managed with such arrangement (OC and CCR) for 5 years.

AndrewRawlingson
18-02-11, 08:24 PM
this is not a wing for an OW with five dives!

I didn't realise that the laws of diving stated that once 5 dives were complete, an uncontrolled ascent was impossible. Bit like saying that 5 years of accident free driving means you cant have an accident.

don
18-02-11, 08:31 PM
I didn't realise that the laws of diving stated that once 5 dives were complete, an uncontrolled ascent was impossible. Bit like saying that 5 years of accident free driving means you cant have an accident.

Oh FFS how bloody pedantic can you get?
It wasn't a an absolute - I was asking where all these hypothetical uncontrolled ascents were coming from, the suggestion being that ok we all have a few buoyancy problems when starting out but to read some of the post here you'd expect to go to Vobster a the weekend and see divers hurtling out of the water like polaris missiles every five minutes.

1693
18-02-11, 08:31 PM
You can't dump when vertical.Looking at where the bulk of the gas appears to be, I'd say you could dump a fair amount even if you were vertical. But your response begs the question, why do you need to be vertical (either up or down) in a rapid ascent?

The sockpuppet reference is about a different thread. I'd suggest that you're the one being needlessly offensive and patronising.

ElvisTheKing
18-02-11, 08:35 PM
ok we all have a few buoyancy problems when starting out but to read some of the post here you'd expect to go to Vobster a the weekend and see divers hurtling out of the water like polaris missiles every five minutes.

Maybe because they can dump from both their wing/bcd and drysuit at the same time, it never gets beyond a non-issue?

Mal Bridgeman
18-02-11, 08:35 PM
Guys, I know it's Friday but please take a chill pill.....
I am already at my quota of closed threads, warnings and bannings for this week :)
Thanks
Mal

ElvisTheKing
18-02-11, 08:36 PM
The sockpuppet reference is about a different thread. I'd suggest that you're the one being needlessly offensive and patronising.

I didn't start calling people dickheads...............

1693
18-02-11, 08:45 PM
I didn't start calling people dickheads...............Yeah, yeah. And your dad's bigger than Don's.


Actually your dad's probably younger than Don :D

don
18-02-11, 08:47 PM
Yeah, yeah. And your dad's bigger than Don's.


Actually your dad's probably younger than Don :D

Actually .................that's not that funny!:frown:

James-S
18-02-11, 09:23 PM
Can someone give me a link to the sock puppet thread please? I don't seem to be able to find it...

don
18-02-11, 09:29 PM
https://www.yorkshire-divers.com/forums/non-diving-posts/147022-sock-puppets.html#post1620321

Jim Dowling
18-02-11, 09:35 PM
Actually .................that's not that funny!:frown:

actually it was very funny! i dunno, some old blokes have no sense of humour sometimes...... tell you what, if you can find one off these mental contraptions i'll find a videographer and go and have a play with it.... been out of the water for a week and am bored now! could be worth a laugh....

AndrewRawlingson
18-02-11, 09:37 PM
Can someone give me a link to the sock puppet thread please? I don't seem to be able to find it...

Don't worry, that thread isnt as explosive as it sounds - unless its chaged since this afternoon :)

James-S
18-02-11, 09:38 PM
Just had a look - you're right, shame...

ElvisTheKing
18-02-11, 09:40 PM
Actually your dad's probably younger than Don :D

Surely not my dads retired already.

James-S
18-02-11, 09:49 PM
Guys, I know it's Friday but please take a chill pill.....
I am already at my quota of closed threads, warnings and bannings for this week :)
Thanks
Mal

So that means that if were to behave in a disorderly manner, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it? ;)

Rupert Bear
18-02-11, 10:00 PM
So that means that if were to behave in a disorderly manner, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it? ;)

I'll tell you what, you try it first and if you get banned we'll know you can't.......:D

Kev
19-02-11, 02:06 AM
Lol whatever next? :)

Silty Bottom
19-02-11, 08:38 AM
Lol whatever next? :)

BSAC Vs PADI?

Cos christ knows the argument is going round and round and round here. May as well make it a full house. How about DIR is for divers who can't think for themselves... anyone?

After 9 pages the only conclusion we've got is: no-one has tried it cos it looks shit

9 pages? That must be some kind of record




I was expecting at least 20

Major Clanger
19-02-11, 09:53 AM
BSAC Vs PADI?

Cos christ knows the argument is going round and round and round here. May as well make it a full house. How about DIR is for divers who can't think for themselves... anyone?

After 9 pages the only conclusion we've got is: no-one has tried it cos it looks shit

9 pages? That must be some kind of record




I was expecting at least 20

You should have got involved earlier ;)

12480
19-02-11, 10:29 AM
How about DIR is for divers who can't think for themselves... anyone?


I tried that on post #56...there were no takers....

James-S
19-02-11, 01:26 PM
I tried that on post #56...there were no takers....

Well obviously - I thought it was widely accepted that that is the case anyway... ;)

Air Guzzler
19-02-11, 01:43 PM
This may answer a few people questions

Delta System - Trim Device Tips and Techniques - Unified Team Diving (http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/video/delta-system-trim-device-tips)

Kev
19-02-11, 01:57 PM
This may answer a few people questions

Delta System - Trim Device Tips and Techniques - Unified Team Diving (http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/video/delta-system-trim-device-tips)

It is a bag of beans. You do not need a 10 minute video on its functionality to see that it is a bag of beans.

Thanks for posting it up though.

Best

Kev

1693
19-02-11, 02:01 PM
This may answer a few people questions

Delta System - Trim Device Tips and Techniques - Unified Team Diving (http://www.unifiedteamdiving.com/video/delta-system-trim-device-tips)I've gotta say, I like it. I know a lot of stuff UTD come up with is ridiculous, but this looks pretty cool.


You can't dump when vertical.C'mon then Elvis, let's see what you've got.

Kev
19-02-11, 02:20 PM
I've gotta say, I like it. I know a lot of stuff UTD come up with is ridiculous, but this looks pretty cool.


Why is it better than a wing? It looks completely pointless to me.

1693
19-02-11, 02:33 PM
Why is it better than a wing? It looks completely pointless to me.I didn't say it was Kev, I said it looked pretty cool. I guess the point is that it can provide quite extensive lift without the usual problem of air swilling around. A 30lb Eclipse is much nicer to use than a 40lb, yet this thing looks more compact than the former with the lift of the latter.

The video seems to put pay to some of the more OTT criticism in this thread, and that I find quite amusing :D

ElvisTheKing
19-02-11, 02:43 PM
C'mon then Elvis, let's see what you've got.

Tell you what why don't you buy one and prove me wrong, maybe you and Don can go halves on it......

1693
19-02-11, 02:49 PM
Tell you what why don't you buy one and prove me wrong, maybe you and Don can go halves on it......I no longer dive open circuit. It probably wouldn't be any good on the CCR, although it would be interesting to try it. However there's no need, the video evidence appears to have proven you wrong.

Do I need to say so 5 times? ;)

Kev
19-02-11, 02:54 PM
I didn't say it was Kev, I said it looked pretty cool. I guess the point is that it can provide quite extensive lift without the usual problem of air swilling around. A 30lb Eclipse is much nicer to use than a 40lb, yet this thing looks more compact than the former with the lift of the latter.

The video seems to put pay to some of the more OTT criticism in this thread, and that I find quite amusing :D

Well from a DIR perspective I think I would conclude that it does not add anything to a wing but is less standard in format (this assumes everything works, let's be kind and assume it does) and might have problems with scalability. Therefore I will stick with my wing which does its job perfectly well and definitely offers a scalable solution. Sorry to be boring.

You gonna buy one? :)

Mark Chase
19-02-11, 03:04 PM
I no longer dive open circuit. It probably wouldn't be any good on the CCR, although it would be interesting to try it. However there's no need, the video evidence appears to have proven you wrong.

Do I need to say so 5 times? ;)



I might have to hand back my beloved Halcyon CCR35 wing I am currently using on my JJ (its owner wants it back :( ) Aparently I cant buy a CCR35 in the UK (which is tragic) so this could be an option?


If it has that much low down lift but its that small it might work well with the JJ?


Personaly i am not bothered by the dumping issue. I am more concerned about the cost :D


ATB

Mark

ElvisTheKing
19-02-11, 03:14 PM
I no longer dive open circuit. It probably wouldn't be any good on the CCR, although it would be interesting to try it. However there's no need, the video evidence appears to have proven you wrong.

Do I need to say so 5 times? ;)


Yep looks perfect if you are so overweighted that at the beginning of a dive you can dump the air in the bottom half of the wing and still descend, just a shame about the air in the top half, but that's surely not going to case a problem, is it...........

Lou
19-02-11, 03:18 PM
There is very little air in the top of the wing due to the shape, and if you aren't a couple of kilos overweighted at the start of a dive then you probably haven't filled your cylinder.

1693
19-02-11, 03:41 PM
I might have to hand back my beloved Halcyon CCR35 wing I am currently using on my JJ (its owner wants it back :( ) Aparently I cant buy a CCR35 in the UK (which is tragic) so this could be an option?


If it has that much low down lift but its that small it might work well with the JJ? As I was typing, saying it would be no good on the JJ, I thought of the you and the Halcyon wing and opted to reserve judgement. Can you not get somebody in the US to fetch you a CCR35 over?


Well from a DIR perspective I think I would conclude that it does not add anything to a wing but is less standard in format (this assumes everything works, let's be kind and assume it does) and might have problems with scalability. Therefore I will stick with my wing which does its job perfectly well and definitely offers a scalable solution. Sorry to be boring.

You gonna buy one? :)Scalability is a very good point Kev. The muscle memory thing that Georgitsis went on about might go out of the window if one were to swap back and forth between this and a 'doubles' wing.


Yep looks perfect if you are so overweighted that at the beginning of a dive you can dump the air in the bottom half of the wing and still descend, just a shame about the air in the top half, but that's surely not going to case a problem, is it...........He didn't look over-weighted to me. If you're as good in the water as the guys in the video, you'd have no trouble managing this device. It's obvious to anyone that the 'top half' contains a lot less gas than the bottom half; as Lou suggests - maybe just enough to offset the full cylinder you'll start the dive with.

don
19-02-11, 04:05 PM
if you aren't a couple of kilos overweighted at the start of a dive then you probably haven't filled your cylinder.

priceless - i'm afraid that's a definite green!

big si
19-02-11, 04:38 PM
i think the guy stood on the bottom of the swimming pool is more than a couple of kgs over weighted, he has got a full wing and being held down by the weight. If he was correctly weighted with a wing full of air he would be on the surface, so IMO they are advising to dive with this wing, you need to be grossly overweighted for it to vent air in the upright/verticle position and not rocket to the surface.

ElvisTheKing
19-02-11, 04:45 PM
i think the guy stood on the bottom of the swimming pool is more than a couple of kgs over weighted, he has got a full wing and being held down by the weight. If he was correctly weighted with a wing full of air he would be on the surface, so IMO they are advising to dive with this wing, you need to be grossly overweighted for it to vent air in the upright/verticle position and not rocket to the surface.

No that virtually fully inflated look when they go horizontal is definitely due to the "lot less gas" in the top half than the bottom half, not because it was almost full to bursting before they dumped a fraction of the air to descend. If I was diving a steel single, SS backplate and a bloody thin wetsuit like they are I know *I* would be hugely overweighted......
Strange they don't seem to demonstrate vertical dumping when using an Ali, wonder why?

Major Clanger
19-02-11, 05:23 PM
Who needs a wing or BCD anyway? Have you seen those Cousteau and Monkey Diver videos...



:popcorn:

James-S
19-02-11, 05:24 PM
Who needs a wing or BCD anyway? Have you seen those Cousteau and Monkey Diver videos...



:popcorn:

I said that on DIRX once - they weren't particularly impressed... :D

Lou
19-02-11, 05:31 PM
They also state they ate using aepne both neutrally weighted and seine overweighted to demonstrate - you are hardly being a Sherlock pointing that out. They also show poor descent styles to illustrate ity can cope in all orientations.

If you look at the product pictures you can see all the bag is around the waist with only a small strip up each side of the tank position. This is what makes the inflator position not the issue you want to believe that it is.

Even in a horseshoe wing you have roll to get the last couple of litres of air out so I struggle to see why this is different, and in a drysuit you can have tons of air above the one and only dump yet strangely we cope.

Maybe if drysuits had been a UTD thang we would happily scoff at those too?

James-S
19-02-11, 05:53 PM
in a drysuit you can have tons of air above the one and only dump yet strangely we cope.

Maybe if drysuits had been a UTD thang we would happily scoff at those too?

But surely that's part of the issue? As a result, you then can't dump from your suit and wing at the same time - having dumps just at the top would surely have made it better?

12480
19-02-11, 06:10 PM
Who needs a wing or BCD anyway? Have you seen those Cousteau and Monkey Diver videos...



:popcorn:

That constant swimming to maintain buoyancy plays havoc with the old SAC though, hence Monsieur C and his triple set on the Thistlegorm. I dived it on a ali80 ;)

Major Clanger
19-02-11, 06:27 PM
That constant swimming to maintain buoyancy plays havoc with the old SAC though, hence Monsieur C and his triple set on the Thistlegorm. I dived it on a ali80 ;)

Haven't seen that one but saw the one of him papping himself when the lights went out on The Britannic, followed by a bunch of them throwing off their triple sets prior to entering the deco chamber at 60m. Not an SPG or octo in site. Cutting edge nevertheless.

Hodge_Close
19-02-11, 06:41 PM
Looks like a funky bit of kit to me. I wonder when John will be testing it with side slung?

:D

11973
19-02-11, 11:40 PM
utd have spent to much time in the carpark at Peacock. i have seen a couple of people in the hollis/diverite off the shelf sidemount rigs in north florida who have swapped there corrugated hose to the bottom of the wing. jill heinerth has put her opinion about it on to the net and she talks sense. maybe utd are trying to appeal to a market that wont exist for long if darwin has his way.

Lou
20-02-11, 08:20 AM
Drysuits, drysuits, drysuits.

I hope to see all you doom-mongers either diving a drysuits with the dump at the nape of your neck, or diving wet exclusively?

Tilesey
20-02-11, 07:17 PM
Well at least you can attach an argon bottle to it....

Fuck's sake.

1693
20-02-11, 08:28 PM
Well at least you can attach an argon bottle to it....

Fuck's sake.Yeah, that was hilarious.

NotDeadYet
20-02-11, 09:06 PM
Who needs a wing or BCD anyway? Have you seen those Cousteau and Monkey Diver videos...



:popcorn:

I don't use a wing. I just have the harness threaded straight onto the case of my rebreather. When I'm kayak diving I just use a drysuit (sometimes a wetsuit), single, backplate and harness as well. Strangely I've managed to do a fair bit of diving like that without it upping my SAC or killing me.

James-S
20-02-11, 10:23 PM
I don't use a wing. I just have the harness threaded straight onto the case of my rebreather. When I'm kayak diving I just use a drysuit (sometimes a wetsuit), single, backplate and harness as well. Strangely I've managed to do a fair bit of diving like that without it upping my SAC or killing me.

Out of interest (as always), what would you do if your dry suit flooded?

Two Hats
20-02-11, 10:28 PM
Out of interest (as always), what would you do if your dry suit flooded?

Freeze his nuts off;)

Winch up on a liftbag probably:)

James-S
20-02-11, 10:29 PM
Freeze his nuts off;)

Winch up on a liftbag probably:)

Fair enough, makes sense.

BJ
20-02-11, 10:33 PM
Out of interest (as always), what would you do if your dry suit flooded?

Use the BC.

James-S
20-02-11, 10:43 PM
Use the BC.

His counterlungs?

ElvisTheKing
20-02-11, 11:38 PM
I did a little experiment today (yes I went diving!) I fully inflated my wing then holding the inflater down I pressed the deflate button and it dumped......................all the air in the bottom of the wing until the bottom of the air bubble in the wing reached the level of the inflator, unfortuanltly I wasn't wearing a thin wetsuit but a drysuit with artics underneath so I didn't descend............
Hmm what to do, what to do?
Well luckily I could simply lift my inflater so the end of the hose was higher than the top of the wing and thus dump the air in the top of my wing, equally someone diving a normal wing inverted could pull the shoulder (was kidney dump) and dump the rest of the air, on the delta, erm.................

Lou
21-02-11, 07:02 AM
....you can roll to the side and expel the tiny bit of air above the inflator, which is what you would do in a drysuit.

NotDeadYet
21-02-11, 07:16 AM
Out of interest (as always), what would you do if your dry suit flooded?

Depends what sort of flood. I've had plenty of suit floods but never bad enough that I'd lost buoyancy completely. Like Sean says, if it came to it then there is the bag option. Or blow the lung up. All my weight is ditchable too.

I've only ever had units with backmount lungs. I've always found the work of breathing is noticeably worse when using a wing. I dont want anything on that's going to push the lungs on the unit further from my lungs. The Mk15 especially is like 2 different units with a wing on.

If nothing else it makes you very attentive to getting your weighting spot on.

rongoodman
24-02-11, 06:50 AM
I have to say that my first impression was that it's a device designed to solve non-existent problems, but I have one of their sidemount wings coming for an upcoming class in Mexico, and I might like it enough to consider giving the Delta system a try. Probably not, though.