View Full Version : Salient points on Bombers (for Londoners) and explosives..



Alan
21-07-05, 09:40 PM
I havent really introduced myself on the site before, but my name is Alan, and I have had some experience of bombs (and diving, but can get to that later). I originate from Omagh, Co. Tyrone which had about 8 bomb attacks in my time there, the worst being the last which killed friends and neighbours of mine.

I also served in the army like my father (also a keen diver). I have some experience of this type of situation and would like to share my knowledge with my fellow divers (specifically London based divers like myself).

Don't panic. The people we are dealing with are making the explosives themselves, which is a plus point. Its unstable, and in cases like today, its probably not been good enough to react with the detonator.

It looks to me like it was the same cell, since they had detonators, which are harder to come by than explosives! Serious terrorists (who know what they are doing), mix high grade explosives with home made to have a better chance of a catastrophe.

They arent that switched on either but I will not say why, no need to educate the ignorant on their deadly purposes.

Their main form of attack is not the bombs but fear, do not give into it. These guys are amateurs and can easily be spotted. I have asked on several occassions for people on a crowded train to indentify a bag before. Don't be afraid to do the same.

Thats all it takes. Bombs on the underground require timers and cannot be set off remote controlled. Which means they cannot be blocked. Which means your own vigilance is key to protecting yourself.

Home made bombs are usually quite bulky, and as we know the ruck sack is the delivery method of choice. Your not a racist if you ask someone of a Pakinstani orgin whats in their bag!

Remember don't give into the fear. Also remember that a bomb scare can just be a ruse for a more catastrophic attack.

The press have no idea what they are talking about, so keep your wits about you.

Big hug,

Al

Garf
21-07-05, 10:29 PM
Your not a racist if you ask someone of a Pakinstani orgin whats in their bag!
ummm, I think you'll find that you, in fact, are, if you do this becuase they are Pakistani.

Mick F
21-07-05, 10:53 PM
ummm, I think you'll find that you, in fact, are, if you do this becuase they are Pakistani.
Yep, Garf is right.

Also, ANIS or equivalent mixes, ain't suitable for a rucksack bomb. Very few people can mix up other homemades in small effective amounts.

I would be very wary of what's behind todays events. You don't go from a position of four dets to a position of four no-dets, just don't happen. The devices today didn't go off for a reason. That reason has yet to be identified.


Bombs on the underground require timers and cannot be set off remote controlled.
Nope. A simple trigger can be set off from a couple of carriages away


I have asked on several occassions for people on a crowded train to indentify a bag before.
Ask that question of a genuine triggerman & it may be the last few words to pass your lips. Risking a serious flaming here, only the Israelis have had any kind of success rate of dealing with triggermen & they don't tend to ask those kind of questions. Only someone trained in profiling can possibly/maybe identify a suicide bomber. Do you really fancy accosting a young asian kid who is wound up, and appears nervous, about the job interview he is going too?? Would you like it to happen to you?

Just be thankful that, so far, we haven't had the casualty count of two weeks ago. I use the word "we" deliberately here. Enough damage and carnage has been done to Londoners by so called "Irish Patriots"

Our thoughts are with you.

Rob Evans
21-07-05, 11:12 PM
Your not a racist if you ask someone of a Pakinstani orgin whats in their bag! You're a better man than me if you can tell a Pakistani from an Indian or a Bangladeshi just by looking.
Don't go that way - cos then the evil f*ckers behind all this will have achieved their goal.

dave archer
21-07-05, 11:19 PM
Don't go that way - cos then the evil f*ckers behind all this will have achieved their goal.
What he said.
Carry on totally regardless, don't alter a thing due to these c*nts - the only way to not let them win.

Dave.

Alan
21-07-05, 11:32 PM
But for the right reasons

Explosives are mixed in batches, and the recipe for each batch may not have been the same, due to the technician or the time to make the batch not been the same (or the ingredients).

I did not imply that people of a Middle Eastern race should be singled out, but that anyone that acts suspiciously should be considered, even people from a Middle Eastern background. Being overly PC can kill

Also the remark about radio controlled explosives is completely redundant, and for one thing the operating model of these terrorists is to commit suicide.

I would rather take my chances with the bomber than with the bomb!!!

A

Finless
21-07-05, 11:40 PM
Alan,

I just wondered if you were married and/or had a steady girlfriend and whether they'd be annoyed about you going about on the forum claiming a Fish Finger?

Bryan

:)

Alan
21-07-05, 11:43 PM
Change of subject.

good form

A

Garf
22-07-05, 05:58 AM
But for the right reasons

Explosives are mixed in batches, and the recipe for each batch may not have been the same, due to the technician or the time to make the batch not been the same (or the ingredients).

I did not imply that people of a Middle Eastern race should be singled out, but that anyone that acts suspiciously should be considered, even people from a Middle Eastern background. Being overly PC can kill

Also the remark about radio controlled explosives is completely redundant, and for one thing the operating model of these terrorists is to commit suicide.

I would rather take my chances with the bomber than with the bomb!!!

A
Sorry I disagree with this completely. The moment you start worrying about the man next to you, or the boy on the train, the terrorists have achieved their goal, which is primarilt to terrorise, and as a result undermine belief in the security of the existing polotial or socio-economic system. The best way for civvies to combat terrorism is to do the exact opposite of what you are saying - just get on with life and prove it's not as easy to disrupt it as they think. Looking over your shoulder for possible suspects is exactly what the terrorists want you to do, so why give the [email protected] the satisfaction.

John Gulliver
22-07-05, 08:14 AM
Sorry I disagree with this completely. The moment you start worrying about the man next to you, or the boy on the train, the terrorists have achieved their goal, which is primarilt to terrorise, and as a result undermine belief in the security of the existing polotial or socio-economic system. The best way for civvies to combat terrorism is to do the exact opposite of what you are saying - just get on with life and prove it's not as easy to disrupt it as they think. Looking over your shoulder for possible suspects is exactly what the terrorists want you to do, so why give the [email protected] the satisfaction.
Well, I'm not in London but I wonder how many people who are would not look at least twice at a 30-year-old male of Indian/Pakistani/Arab appearance with a rucksack on his back on the tube or a bus today. I certainly would.

MATTBIN
22-07-05, 08:30 AM
You obviously havent been on London transport lately John, You do NOT look at anyone, period. :)

Talk to them - are you bonkers!!!

Matt

Conor
22-07-05, 08:58 AM
Alan, sorry to say this mate, but for a a northern Irish person living in London I am surprised.

During the London bombs of the 90's I was travelling in and out of London by tube. The people on the tube were the same people I sat with every day. They knew I was from NI. Once the bombs started going off I started getting glared at by these people that were there every morning......as if I was suddenly going to bomb the train. This was not a pleasant experience, and it had the circular effect of making me feel a bit twitchy which meant.......

Now the bombers over the last few years have been of no single race, they have been Afro-carribean, north african, middle-eastern, asian etc.

Now what proportion of the average london bus or tube does that represent.

There were times in the 90s when, after an attack in london and a stressful day in the office, if someone asked me what was in a bag I was carrying they would have reached the station before the train. I don't think causing a level of paranoia helps anyone, it is afterall what they were trying to achieve in the first place.

I respect what you say about your experiences in Omagh, but I believe one of the great moments in NI history was when the victims of the bombs started speaking against sectarianism and towards peace.

As for the explosives/bomb bit in your post I don't know what you were trying to achieve with it. A bomb can work or not, it can be set off locally or remotely, the bomber could be any appearance (I actually know a few white muslims); so in short......shit happens, best get on with life.


Conor

Alan
22-07-05, 09:39 AM
Alan, sorry to say this mate, but for a a northern Irish person living in London I am surprised

I'm not, since I am N.Irish!!!


During the London bombs of the 90's I was travelling in and out of London by tube. The people on the tube were the same people I sat with every day. They knew I was from NI. Once the bombs started going off I started getting glared at by these people that were there every morning......as if I was suddenly going to bomb the train.

How can you insinuate that people thought you were a tube bomber, given that the Sinn Fein/IRA 's brand of terror was to set truck bombs off in the city, or kidnap and shoot their own people.

Everybody glares at everybody on the tube, its normal practice. You must know that.Its the human brains involuntary responce to being round a hundred people who do not communicate and trying are their best not to do anything which may draw attention to themselves.


Now the bombers over the last few years have been of no single race, they have been Afro-carribean, north african, middle-eastern, asian etc.

I said anyone acting suspiciously, its the PC behavaviour which has killed people and will continue to kill (Omagh Bomb for example).


There were times in the 90s when, after an attack in London and a stressful day in the office, if someone asked me what was in a bag I was carrying they would have reached the station before the train. I don't think causing a level of paranoia helps anyone, it is afterall what they were trying to achieve in the first place.

I thinky your trying to draw to many parrallels with your own experiences, when its completely different scenario, with completely different terrorists.


I respect what you say about your experiences in Omagh, but I believe one of the great moments in NI history was when the victims of the bombs started speaking against sectarianism and towards peace.

Have you not looked at the polls we are more polarized than ever, the terrorists have still got their weapons, and the former head of the IRA is about to become the Head of Education for N.Ireland.


As for the explosives/bomb bit in your post I don't know what you were trying to achieve with it. A bomb can work or not, it can be set off locally or remotely, the bomber could be any appearance (I actually know a few white muslims); so in short......shit happens, best get on with life.

BBC News
"The explosive might have degraded over time or had not been put together right in this case, or it could have been a completely different batch of explosives - homemade - that had not been cooked up properly."

"The bombers' plan might have been disrupted by the investigation into the 7 July attacks, forcing them to act before they had been fully prepared, Corera added."

Your last quote is a very unintelligent attempt to discredit my views on explosives (from hands on experience in N.Ireland dealing with terrorrists with home made explosives) planted by people who looked just like you and I.

We can't just get on with our lives as before, neither can the 52 people and the 100s of maimed.

Anyway Connor this seems like we could get a few beers in sometime since I know very few N.Irish people in London and we have a lot in common:0)

Anyway I am off to Egypt in a few weeks filming around the Red Sea. Can't wait!!!!!

Alan
22-07-05, 09:45 AM
And called a racist by someone who is called Big Kev. Which is very insulting!

Please state why!!!!!

Father Ted quote: "So I hear you're a racist now, Father?"

Conor
22-07-05, 10:16 AM
How can you insinuate that people thought you were a tube bomber, given that the Sinn Fein/IRA 's brand of terror was to set truck bombs off in the city, or kidnap and shoot their own people.
.....and to put bombs in bins etc, I think it was a very uncomfortable time to be NI in london. I don't think people think in that much detail, they just get angry and/or scared.


Everybody glares at everybody on the tube, its normal practice. You must know that.Its the human brains involuntary responce to being round a hundred people who do not communicate and trying are their best not to do anything which may draw attention to themselves.
I would have said the opposite, no-one looks at anyone on the tube, people would ordinarily look at there feet for 45 mins that risk human interaction with a stranger in london at rush hour.


I said anyone acting suspiciously, its the PC behavaviour which has killed people and will continue to kill (Omagh Bomb for example).



I thinky your trying to draw to many parrallels with your own experiences, when its completely different scenario, with completely different terrorists.
I do understand your point, but I think encouraging people to challenge people is risky, being vigilant is one thing but I don't think everyone should be voicing there own biases through challenging strangers on the train.




Have you not looked at the polls we are more polarized than ever, the terrorists have still got their weapons, and the former head of the IRA is about to become the Head of Education for N.Ireland..
It doesn't stop me from being proud of what some of the bomb survivors have done in the past. Its just sad that the people of NI are forgetting what it was like and forgetting the lessons learnt.



Your last quote is a very unintelligent attempt to discredit my views on explosives (from hands on experience in N.Ireland dealing with terrorrists with home made explosives) planted by people who looked just like you and I.
I wasn't trying to discredit your views, I just didn't see where you were going with it. My point is that it is impossible to predict what the next bomb will be and where it will go off, so why should people concern themselves with it? what is to be gained by stressing about it? The only outcomes of the constant amature navel gazing of the media is increasing nerves and fear, i.e. Mr terrorists mission is achieved.

These are not, as you say, the same terrorists there agenda is different, there is no act that would appease them, as was the case with PIRA (however unlikely that was), they are creating terror for terror's sake which is all the more reason not to give in to it and breed paranoia.

As for the intelligence of my comment, thats a matter for debate, more to do with perspective than intelligence.



Anyway Connor this seems like we could get a few beers in sometime since I know very few N.Irish people in London and we have a lot in common:0)

Anyway I am off to Egypt in a few weeks filming around the Red Sea. Can't wait!!!!!
Beers are always welcome, as is diving.

Have fun in the RS, you lucky lucky b...... ;)

Alan
22-07-05, 10:29 AM
No probs, I live in WestHampstead and always up for some diving / beer chat

turbanator
22-07-05, 10:31 AM
No probs, I live in WestHampstead and always up for some diving / beer chat
An Irishman up for a drink and a chat, now there's something you don't see every day :teeth: !

Conor
22-07-05, 10:34 AM
Well, no-one said what we would be drinking......a nice cup o' tea of course.

I've left london for the quiet life in the fens, but if I find myself in need of a beer when in that part of the world I'll let you know :)

Similarly if you ever find yourself in the fens let me know

dave archer
22-07-05, 11:16 AM
Well, I'm not in London but I wonder how many people who are would not look at least twice at a 30-year-old male of Indian/Pakistani/Arab appearance with a rucksack on his back on the tube or a bus today. I certainly would.
Of course, we're all human John, and you can't stop your mind wondering.

The point is though that to ACT any differently towards this man than you would of 2 months ago is to let these cowards win.

Dave.

Beardy
22-07-05, 11:21 AM
During the London bombs of the 90's I was travelling in and out of London by tube. The people on the tube were the same people I sat with every day. They knew I was from NI. Once the bombs started going off I started getting glared at by these people that were there every morning......as if I was suddenly going to bomb the train. This was not a pleasant experience, and it had the circular effect of making me feel a bit twitchy which meant.......

I have ALWAYS found the Norn Irish lilt makes me go weak at the knees. Admitidly it's got to be eminating from the right curved package :) but if she's also a flame maned green eyed lass, I'm a lost cause

Conor
22-07-05, 11:23 AM
You've have found the irish secret weapon

Beardy
22-07-05, 11:24 AM
It's never been a secret to me mate :D

Terrible_Ivan
22-07-05, 01:20 PM
You obviously havent been on London transport lately John, You do NOT look at anyone, period. :)

Talk to them - are you bonkers!!!

Matt

Matt, you must be taking different tubes than me, mate! I look (stare) at the chicks every day on the tube.

Having served in the infantry myself, I'm not particularly impressed by their bombing skills. Bunch of incompetent w*nkers if you ask me. But as FishFinger Alan pointed out, no need to give free classes in explosives use.

42
22-07-05, 01:23 PM
Hello There,

I just heard, That at last the Met are starting to shoot these people, an eye witness said the guy who was shot in the tube looked like a cornered fox !! well good for him........and good for the cops who fired untill the gun went click !!!! back to the station boys, lets reload and get back out on the streets,.and lets not suspend the officer, lets promote him, give him a raise and a bigger gun. I remember In NI alot of guys hesitant to shoot incase of the "Manual Of Military Law" being thrown at them. its time to keep the books on the shelf and "Have at it" send them all to Freaking Allah !!
By the way, I live in the States now so I get my news slightley late, would like to be kept infomed by any Brits. On a better note. I am off work today, My tanks are full the sun is out the boat is ready......the sea awaits !!

Later

I bet your tanks are out in the sun and full of depleted uranium rounds with the engines running. :D

Lou
22-07-05, 01:23 PM
Hello There,

I just heard, That at last the Met are starting to shoot these people, an eye witness said the guy who was shot in the tube looked like a cornered fox !! well good for him........and good for the cops who fired untill the gun went click !!!! back to the station boys, lets reload and get back out on the streets,.and lets not suspend the officer, lets promote him, give him a raise and a bigger gun. I remember In NI alot of guys hesitant to shoot incase of the "Manual Of Military Law" being thrown at them. its time to keep the books on the shelf and "Have at it" send them all to Freaking Allah !!
By the way, I live in the States now so I get my news slightley late, would like to be kept infomed by any Brits. On a better note. I am off work today, My tanks are full the sun is out the boat is ready......the sea awaits !!

Later
Bloody hell. What a complete prick. Sounds like you have been well and truly Americanised. Check out the other thread where, quite rightly, concersn are being raised it has come to this. I, for one, am glad that Britain is still a country where we are concerned - even in these difficult circumstances - when the police or whatever they were, shoot someone. I am also pleased that virtually no-one who still lives in this country and posts here has expressed such views.

You are a first grade idiot, sir. Offensive in the extreme.

Conor
22-07-05, 01:25 PM
Hello There,

I just heard, That at last the Met are starting to shoot these people, an eye witness said the guy who was shot in the tube looked like a cornered fox !! well good for him........and good for the cops who fired untill the gun went click !!!! back to the station boys, lets reload and get back out on the streets,.and lets not suspend the officer, lets promote him, give him a raise and a bigger gun. I remember In NI alot of guys hesitant to shoot incase of the "Manual Of Military Law" being thrown at them. its time to keep the books on the shelf and "Have at it" send them all to Freaking Allah !!
By the way, I live in the States now so I get my news slightley late, would like to be kept infomed by any Brits. On a better note. I am off work today, My tanks are full the sun is out the boat is ready......the sea awaits !!

Later
ERm..........no comment

Mr T.
22-07-05, 02:32 PM
Hello There,

I just heard, That at last the Met are starting to shoot these people, an eye witness said the guy who was shot in the tube looked like a cornered fox !! well good for him........and good for the cops who fired untill the gun went click !!!! back to the station boys, lets reload and get back out on the streets,.and lets not suspend the officer, lets promote him, give him a raise and a bigger gun. I remember In NI alot of guys hesitant to shoot incase of the "Manual Of Military Law" being thrown at them. its time to keep the books on the shelf and "Have at it" send them all to Freaking Allah !!
By the way, I live in the States now so I get my news slightley late, would like to be kept infomed by any Brits. On a better note. I am off work today, My tanks are full the sun is out the boat is ready......the sea awaits !!

Later
Bob, I'm just after wecloming you in the Commie Forum and now this :rolleyes: It's gone down like a ton of hot snot. This aint the ARRSE site mate, so please remember we have a majority of civvies onboard who's sensibilities need to be taken into account when making pronouncements on NI or current 'troubles' ;) Word to the wise mate.

scubadooba
22-07-05, 02:35 PM
How many of you would agree that
'All Muslims are not Terrorists - but all Terrorists are Muslims'

Before I get flamed I am white, English but NOT racist. The above statement was just something someone said to me yesterday after the incidents in London again.

Phoenix
22-07-05, 02:55 PM
How many of you would agree that
'All Muslims are not Terrorists - but all Terrorists are Muslims'

Before I get flamed I am white, English but NOT racist. The above statement was just something someone said to me yesterday after the incidents in London again.


I wouldn't say all terrorists are Muslims, certainly it seems like a high percentage claim to be though.

Ian

Conor
22-07-05, 02:59 PM
Most would say that to be a terrorist is against islam and therefore you could not be a muslim.

Setting that aside, the current round of attacks are from islamic groups but terrorists come in all shapes and sizes, that kind of statement means nothing. The next lot could be welsh for all we know.

If you are saying that the current lot of terrorists linked with the islamic groups are muslim then yes that would be blatently correct.




How many of you would agree that
'All Muslims are not Terrorists - but all Terrorists are Muslims'

Before I get flamed I am white, English but NOT racist. The above statement was just something someone said to me yesterday after the incidents in London again.

Conor
22-07-05, 03:01 PM
Bob, I'm just after wecloming you in the Commie Forum and now this :rolleyes: It's gone down like a ton of hot snot. This aint the ARRSE site mate, so please remember we have a majority of civvies onboard who's sensibilities need to be taken into account when making pronouncements on NI or current 'troubles' ;) Word to the wise mate.
Not to mention those from NI who even less impressed

scubadooba
22-07-05, 03:04 PM
Like I said earlier this statement was just something someone said to me.

I have Muslim friends and one whom is a young lady is now too scared to go out for the evening due to fear of being attacked.

Conor
22-07-05, 03:06 PM
No worries mate, I wasn't having a go at you, I was just typing quickly ;)

BSH
22-07-05, 03:08 PM
we have a majority of civvies onboard
and that would be civvies as in Civilized

scubadooba
22-07-05, 03:10 PM
No offence taken.

Things like this do cause people to have heated discussions but I for one see no short term solution to stop these attacks apart from the public being very alert.

Mr T.
22-07-05, 03:16 PM
How many of you would agree that
'All Muslims are not Terrorists - but all Terrorists are Muslims'

Before I get flamed I am white, English but NOT racist. The above statement was just something someone said to me yesterday after the incidents in London again. Mate, regardless of who told you this - or even mooted the idea - its strident bollocks.

You need to shoot back with: "So what about Moaist rebels in the Nepal? The IRA? The UVF? FARC in Columbia? ETA in Spain? The Falang Gong in China (Christians), the Quebecois in Canada (French)?"

You get my drift? ;)

scubadooba
22-07-05, 03:27 PM
I do get your drift (back to scuba again), Mr T.

I am not an expert on Terrorism throughout the world so am not going to comment on the other Terrorist groups that there are. It was probably just said in light of what has happened in London over the past couple of weeks.

I like you do know that there are non Muslim Terrorists and am also aware of the ETA in Spain as Spain is my second home. Although I think you will find that ETA are more directed at the Government and now no longer believe that it can achieve its aims by violence.

But thats just my view.

Lou
22-07-05, 04:04 PM
Bob, I'm just after wecloming you in the Commie Forum and now this :rolleyes: It's gone down like a ton of hot snot. This aint the ARRSE site mate, so please remember we have a majority of civvies onboard who's sensibilities need to be taken into account when making pronouncements on NI or current 'troubles' ;) Word to the wise mate.
So are you suggesting that someone with a background in the forces would welcome this complete and utter redneck, macho bullshit? I can tell you one who wouldn't right off. I am very sure that there are many more who also think that our ex-pat new member is out of line more than a chummy "warning".

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the kind of drivel posted by "American Bob" does the armed forces no favours at all by association, and that encouraging to people to believe that members of HM armed forces would approve of this aggressive, racist tripe is somewhat reckless in the extreme.

Terrible_Ivan
22-07-05, 04:07 PM
How many of you would agree that
'All Muslims are not Terrorists - but all Terrorists are Muslims'

Before I get flamed I am white, English but NOT racist. The above statement was just something someone said to me yesterday after the incidents in London again.

This is a bit uneducated view, isn't it? I thought the majority of terrorist actions in Europe over the past decades have been committed by Christians. To my knowledge, Muslims terrorists are a quite new thing in Europe.

Keep in mind that terrorism in Europe is currently on a very small scale compared to most continents. It just appears large scale when it happens in your home town. Worldwide you will find a good number of Christian terrorists, especially in South America where most people are Christians... You'll also have a good number of non-muslim terrorists in South and Central Asia.

I guess it also depends a bit on where you draw the line between civil war (Sri Lanka? Philippines?), crimes (Colombia?) and terrorism (Spain?).

Garf
22-07-05, 04:11 PM
I like you do know that there are non Muslim Terrorists and am also aware of the ETA in Spain as Spain is my second home. Although I think you will find that ETA are more directed at the Government and now no longer believe that it can achieve its aims by violence.


I'm sure the families of the 800 or so people they have murdered feel great about this change of heart. It didn't stop them detonating a car bomb in may of this year, or doing a siimilar thing on the 27th of June to demolish Spain's Olympic challenge, making the 11th bomb detonated by ETA this year. Some change of heart. Ooooh yes, let's not forget, their leader has just been sworn in as chief honcho in the Basque "government". This is obviously what they mean by understanding violence is not the answer. It couldn't simply be simple realisation that other organisations of their ilk have proved that it is far easier to cause mayhem and disruption with a loud speaker and a political guise, than it is with homemade explosives, and a hell of a lot personally safer than cooking it off. As for being directed at the Government, that may be their claim, but they have links to both the IRA, and Algerian terrorist organisations, whom they have been involved with both supplying weapons and explosives to, and training. They are scum, like all the others.

Janos
22-07-05, 04:12 PM
You need to shoot back with: "So what about Moaist rebels in the Nepal? The IRA? The UVF? FARC in Columbia? ETA in Spain? The Falang Gong in China (Christians), the Quebecois in Canada (French)?"
Or even closer to home, some of the animal rights extremists.

Janos

Garf
22-07-05, 04:18 PM
Or even closer to home, some of the animal rights extremists.

Janos
and those ribenaberries in the television adverts. They used to terrorise the shite outa me, I'd be behind the sofa every time

Alan
22-07-05, 04:21 PM
My father was career soldier in N.Ireland, in his time he has been blown up, shot at and decorated for bravery.

As a kid I would see him head off to funerals just about every few weeks for people/men under him/friends lost in the troubles. On one attack alone he lost 6 men blown up beside him and I can't imgaine what that must have been like.

When they were picking up the bodies and putting the bits into plastic bags local nationalists sat there drunk and laughed at them.

In my entire life I have never once heard him say anything bigotted, in fact he is on holiday diving in Costa Brava with our R. Catholic neighbours who we treat as family.

I hope I have the same courage to follow in his foot steps and rise above it all.

Lou
22-07-05, 04:24 PM
My father was career soldier in N.Ireland, in his time he has been blown up, shot at and decorated for bravery.

As a kid I would see him head off to funerals just about every few weeks for people/men under him/friends lost in the troubles. On one attack alone he lost 6 men blown up beside him and I can't imgaine what that must have been like.

When they were picking up the bodies and putting them into plastic bags local nationalists sat there drunk and laughed at them.

In my entire life I have never once heard him say anything bigotted, in fact he is on holiday diving in Costa Brava with our R. Catholic neighbours who we treat as family.

I hope I have the same courage to follow in his foot steps and rise above it all.
Absolutely spot on. Well said that man.

dave archer
22-07-05, 04:46 PM
This aint the ARRSE site mate, so please remember we have a majority of civvies onboard who's sensibilities need to be taken into account when making pronouncements on NI or current 'troubles' ;) Word to the wise mate.
My hairy ARRSE :mad:
How about "we have a majority of not fuckin idiots on board mate, 'civvie' or not". Surely you can't be saying that all the ex/military types on here would be cheering such bollox, if it weren't for all us namby pamby hand wringing "better make sure they're guilty before we kill 'em" liberal civvies around?

"British" Bob, I don't like falling for trolls but well done, you've wound me up - sorry to hear you're so feebly endowed you have to come around spouting that sort of ignorant macho shit. When/if you're living back here (don't hurry)feel free to spout such bollox, but in my view you are advocating letting these 'people' win.

Dave.

Mr T.
22-07-05, 05:01 PM
I hope I have the same courage to follow in his foot steps and rise above it all.
You and me both mate.

During the summer holidays, whilst she was on hols as a kid, my ma's family used to get their milk gathered everyday by their neighbours in NI - from 'them, the others' - with no problems whatsoever - until the marching season and 'The Glorious.....'. Then, their milk churns would be deliberately opened and poured onto the ground before collection. Facile. Bollocks.

Now, virtually all my mates are 'The Others...' and we don't go through the arse which the Irish have been schooled in from birth and which scars their adulthood.

It's a crock of shit - and I'll fight anyone who says different - regardless of which side of the, ahem, 'divide' (it being a bullshit devide), you come from. Whether your king wore orange or green; whether you choose to live in the 16th Century or the debacle of the 1921 civil unrest - you both share the same scrap of land. Everyone in the UK/Ireland took umbrage with Kosovo/Balkans, and yet they bitch about NI?? FFS.

Our similarities far outweigh our differences, and yet both 'Irish' sides insists on pissing the other side off??! WTF??

They behave like recalcitrant children.

Mr T.
22-07-05, 05:06 PM
My hairy ARRSE :mad:
How about "we have a majority of not fuckin idiots on board mate, 'civvie' or not". Surely you can't be saying that all the ex/military types on here would be cheering such bollox, if it weren't for all us namby pamby hand wringing "better make sure they're guilty before we kill 'em" liberal civvies around?

"British" Bob, I don't like falling for trolls but well done, you've wound me up - sorry to hear you're so feebly endowed you have to come around spouting that sort of ignorant macho shit. When/if you're living back here (don't hurry)feel free to spout such bollox, but in my view you are advocating letting these 'people' win.

Dave.
Whooaaahhh Dave mate!

The clue was in ARRSE. See HERE (http://www.arrse.co.uk/)

A sounding board for ex-mob/forces guys to speak their piece - whilst not ncesserily meeting with global approval. ;)

Garf
22-07-05, 05:10 PM
My hairy ARRSE :mad:
How about "we have a majority of not fuckin idiots on board mate, 'civvie' or not". Surely you can't be saying that all the ex/military types on here would be cheering such bollox, if it weren't for all us namby pamby hand wringing "better make sure they're guilty before we kill 'em" liberal civvies around?

"British" Bob, I don't like falling for trolls but well done, you've wound me up - sorry to hear you're so feebly endowed you have to come around spouting that sort of ignorant macho shit. When/if you're living back here (don't hurry)feel free to spout such bollox, but in my view you are advocating letting these 'people' win.

Dave.
wow, he really pissed you off eh :)

cdiver2
22-07-05, 06:21 PM
A couple of years ago I did some research on terrorist organizations. You may be suprised to know there were 2,000+ organizations classified as terrorists, not all of them active but there views and numbers made them a potential problem if they ever became active.
One of the things that make combating terrorism is that it is no longer a single organiasition, they help each other.
Your right the bomb making is pathetic AT THE MOMENT BUT. I remember my first tour in NI when a timer was frozen peas in a jar of water with tin foil floating on the top, two nails going through the lid. It still killed a lot of people, and in a very short time we were geting micro switches, light sensitive switches and radio controled.

NotDeadYet
22-07-05, 07:25 PM
This is a bit uneducated view, isn't it? I thought the majority of terrorist actions in Europe over the past decades have been committed by Christians. To my knowledge, Muslims terrorists are a quite new thing in Europe.

Terrorism is also against the laws of Catholicism, Protestantism and the vast majority of religions. Of all the touted as religious terrorist groups, most (all?) are motivated by politics, money and/or ego, many are simply criminal gangs with an ideology and better weapons (Irish paramilitary groups have long been involved in the drug trade and more recently counterfeit goods and pirate software, a few French groups from the 60's were essentially bank robbers with strong views).

The 1972 Munich Olympics attacks were carried out by Muslim groups as were a number of hijackings, those involved in the Iranian Embassy siege were Muslim, the Pan Am bombing was Libyan, the 80's/Reagan years were filled with Arab paranoia so I wouldn't say it was quite a new thing. France has had attacks from North African groups since the 50's.

Bantam
22-07-05, 07:46 PM
France has had attacks from North African groups since the 50's.

The driving force behind their choice to becoming a secular country.

divingniknaks
22-07-05, 08:29 PM
Was actually discussing this whole thing today with a Muslim guy in his 20's, the thing I found interesting and surprising was his statement that it clearly states in the Koran that, if you take life (yours or others) you will go to Hell. Life is a gift from Allah and not to be taken away other than by Allah.

So we discussed how the hell it was that these "fundamentalists" get into a position where they will commit suicide, his take was that it's all down to nutcase Imams (sp) who twist the Holy Book and then "brainwash" people.

Interesting to me though because we keep hearing how "martyrdom" is part of the religion, when according to a very nice guy today that's "all bollocks" , his words not mine.

I feel a little wiser on that score, but still have no idea how the hell we stop all this stuff. :(

Just needed to share that, sorry.


.

Mr T.
22-07-05, 08:39 PM
Was actually discussing this whole thing today with a Muslim guy in his 20's, the thing I found interesting and surprising was his statement that it clearly states in the Koran that, if you take life (yours or others) you will go to Hell. Life is a gift from Allah and not to be taken away other than by Allah.

So we discussed how the hell it was that these "fundamentalists" get into a position where they will commit suicide, his take was that it's all down to nutcase Imams (sp) who twist the Holy Book and then "brainwash" people.

Interesting to me though because we keep hearing how "martyrdom" is part of the religion, when according to a very nice guy today that's "all bollocks" , his words not mine.

I feel a little wiser on that score, but still have no idea how the hell we stop all this stuff. :(

Just needed to share that, sorry. Thank God someone brought this up - I've lived and worked in Islamic countries over the years and I'm reading the 'Koran' now on CD (I've had a copy for 10 years) on the screen in front of me, and it clearly states these tenets. Have a read of this and then we'll come back to it:



Islam does incubate terrorism
By Mark Steyn
(Filed: 12/07/2005)

'There are no Muslim terrorists. There are terrorists," Father Paul Hawkins of St Pancras parish church told his congregation on Sunday. "The people who carried out these attacks are victims of a false religion, be it false Christianity or false Islam."

Oh, dear. "Britain can take it" (as they said in the Blitz): that's never been in doubt. The question is whether Britain can still dish it out. When events such as last Thursday's occur, two things happen, usually within hours if not minutes: first, spokespersons for Islamic lobby groups issue warnings about an imminent backlash against Muslims.

In fairness to British organisations, I believe they were beaten to the punch by the head of the Canadian Islamic Congress whose instant response to the London bombings was to issue a statement calling for prayers that "Canadian Muslims will not pay a price for being found guilty by association".

In most circumstances it would be regarded as appallingly bad taste to deflect attention from an actual "hate crime" by scaremongering about a non-existent one. But it seems the real tragedy of every act of "intolerance" by Islamist bigots is that it might hypothetically provoke even more intolerance from us irredeemable white imperialist racists. My colleague Peter Simple must surely marvel at how the identity-group grievance industry has effortlessly diversified into pre-emptively complaining about acts of prejudice that have not yet occurred.

Among those of us who aren't Muslim, meanwhile, there's a stampede to be first to the microphone to say that "of course" we all know that "the vast majority of Muslims" are not terrorists but law-abiding peace-loving people who share our revulsion at these appalling events, etc.

Mr Blair won that contest on Thursday, followed closely by Brian Paddick and full supporting cast. If "of course" Mr Blair and Mr Paddick and the rest do indeed know that "the vast majority of Muslims" do not favour terrorism, is that because they've run the numbers and have a ballpark figure on the very very very slim minority of Muslims who do? And, if so, what is it? 0.02 per cent? Or two per cent? Or 20 per cent?

And, if they haven't run the numbers, why do they claim to speak with authority on this matter? If it were just a question of rhetorical sensitivity, I'd be happy to go along with Mr Paddick's multiculti pap and insist that "Islam and terrorism don't go together" - events in Beslan, Bali, Israel, Nigeria, Kashmir, etc, notwithstanding. But the danger in separating "Islam" from "terrorism" is that it leads the control-freaks of the nanny state into thinking that "terrorism" is something that can be dealt with by border security, ID cards, retinal scans, metal detectors. It can't.

Terrorism ends when the broader culture refuses to tolerate it. There would be few if any suicide bombers in the Middle East if "martyrdom" were not glorified by imams and politicians, if pictures of local "martyrs" were not proudly displayed in West Bank grocery stores, if Muslim banks did not offer special "martyrdom" accounts to the relicts thereof, if schools did not run essay competitions on "Why I want to grow up to be a martyr".

At this point, many readers will be indignantly protesting that this is all the fault of Israeli "occupation", but how does that explain suicide bombings in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where there's not a Zionist oppressor for hundreds of miles? Islam has become the world's pre-eminent incubator of terrorism at its most depraved. Indeed, so far London has experienced only the lighter items on the bill of fare - random bombing of public transport rather than decapitation, child sacrifice and schoolhouse massacres.

Most of us instinctively understand that when a senior Metropolitan Police figure says bullishly that "Islam and terrorism don't go together", he's talking drivel.

Many of us excuse it on the grounds that, well, golly, it must be a bit embarrassing to be a Muslim on days like last Thursday and it doesn't do any harm to cheer 'em up a bit with some harmless feel-good blather. But is this so?

Why are we surprised that "Muslim moderates" rarely speak out against the evil committed by their co-religionists when the likes of Mr Paddick keep assuring us there's no problem? It requires great courage to be a dissenting Muslim in communities dominated by heavy-handed imams and lobby groups that function effectively as thought-police.

Yet all you hear from Mr Paddick is: "Move along, folks, there's nothing to see here." This is the same approach, incidentally, that the authorities took in their long refusal to investigate seriously the 120 or so "honour killings" among British Muslims.

Just as the police did poor Muslim girls no favours by their excessive cultural sensitivity, so they're now doing the broader Muslim community no favours. The Blair-Paddick strategy only provides a slathering of mindless multiculti fudge topping over the many layers of constraint that prevent Islam beginning an honest conversation with itself.

Unlike Malaya or the Mau-Mau or the IRA, this is a global counter-terrorism operation across widely differing terrain, geographical and psychological. We need to be able to kill, constrain, coerce or coax as appropriate.

Kill terrorists when the opportunity presents itself, as 1,200 "insurgents" were said to have been killed in one recent engagement on the Syria/Iraq border the other day. Constrain the ideology behind Thursday's bombing by outlawing Saudi funding of British mosques and other institutions. Coerce our more laggardly allies like General Musharraf into shutting down his section of the Saudi-Pakistani-Londonistan Wahhabist pipeline.

But the coaxing is what counts - wooing moderate Muslims into reclaiming their religion. We can take steps to prevent Islamic terrorists killing us, most of the time. But Islamic terrorists will only stop trying to kill us when their culture reviles them rather than celebrates them.

There are signs in the last week's Muslim newspapers, in London and abroad, that some eminent voices are beginning to speak out. At such a moment, Britain should be on the side of free speech and open debate. Instead, the state is attempting to steamroller through a grotesque law at the behest of already unduly influential Islamic lobby groups. One of its principal effects will be to inhibit Muslim reformers. Shame on us for championing Islamic thought-police over Western liberty

divingniknaks
22-07-05, 09:03 PM
Phew, thought long and hard about posting that one. Ta Bren.

The thing that gets me to be honest is the phrase "Islamic Terrorists" if what my friend was talking about is true (no reason to doubt it either) they are not ISLAMIC, just criminal terrorists. If the Koran states that it is not right to kill yourself or others, how the hell ca they be described as Islamic.

Does this mean that the media are guilty of tarring the whole Muslim community, or is it just an easy way to label these nutcases.

Sorry if this emotive to some people. I seriously thought about resurrecting my old ID (Hoppy) to post this, but then thought it was hypocritical to do so. They are still my views whether I run a business or not, I should have the courage to question and learn and be seen to do so.

I think the sad thing is that this will go on under whatever guise, as Bren's post above proves. I lost a good friend in NI a good few years ago and still miss him. The same can be said for people all over the world I suppose.

I need a beer.


.

PADI-Paddy
22-07-05, 11:24 PM
I wonder , when the london bombers are caught, processed thru the courts and given long sentences, how long it will take for a british govt to sit down with them, make a deal, release them early from jail and put them into govt posts ??




Makes you think

Mr T.
23-07-05, 08:37 AM
Phew, thought long and hard about posting that one. Ta Bren.

The thing that gets me to be honest is the phrase "Islamic Terrorists" if what my friend was talking about is true (no reason to doubt it either) they are not ISLAMIC, just criminal terrorists. If the Koran states that it is not right to kill yourself or others, how the hell can they be described as Islamic?
Very good point and one worth remembering. They do not, regardless of their protestations, in any way represent Islam, rather in the same vein as the IRA deliberately mislead people by claiming to be, notionally or otherwise, Catholic: they've got fuck-all to do with being Catholic; indeed, just being a member of the IRA excommunicates you from being a Catholic as it is a proscribed and 'secret' society (ditto the Mafia), and as such puts you beyond the pale as far 'the Church' is concerned. It's the same with so-called 'Loyalist' terrorists - whose farcical claims to in any way claim to be 'British' - they are so far from representing any 'British attributes and are mere criminals - all the above groups attempt to shroud themselves in a veil of acceptability by claiming the mantle of their faith as mitigation, when in truth their faith is the one thing which shuns them.


Does this mean that the media are guilty of tarring the whole Muslim community, or is it just an easy way to label these nutcases.
Again true: it's just a convenient denotion which the media use to tag them in the collective psyche.


Sorry if this emotive to some people. I seriously thought about resurrecting my old ID (Hoppy) to post this, but then thought it was hypocritical to do so. They are still my views whether I run a business or not, I should have the courage to question and learn and be seen to do so.

I think the sad thing is that this will go on under whatever guise, as Bren's post above proves. I lost a good friend in NI a good few years ago and still miss him. The same can be said for people all over the world I suppose.

I need a beer.
Amen ;)

Alan
23-07-05, 09:23 AM
First of all Bren, I am impressed with your grasp of N.Irish politics mate, and the religious conertations behind the issue, which until recently I had put behind me as life experience and thought I had seen the back of it.

Unfortunately it seems to follow me where I go, London, Madrid, Sharm etc.

What I can tell you for sure is that the Media not only acted as a catalyst for the problems in N.Ireland, but were responsible for perpetuating it from the mid 70's till now. They indirectly incited hatred in both communities, leading to the tit for tat escalation of violence and projecting the likes of Ian Paisely to the world. Omg.

I am in no way trying pass all the blame to them, there is a lot narrow minded people, still there plying their trade, we refer to them as the mafia now since the veil of political terrorism has fallen off (they held 2 R.Catholic families hostage to rob a bank for gods sake).

Its the media's seemingly uncontrolled reporting which will provide free advertising for the likes of the BNP. It will creates victims of us all and we need intelligent debate like this, not just amongst ourselves but with the other (not just Muslim) communities to stop polarization and create a common ground.

Terrorists use the media to the extent that the likes of the IRA would phone their bomb warnings to media organisations, on the pretence it was trying to warn people, but its obvious they wanted maximum media coverage (why not phone the police direct and let them know).

I can't understand why the media allow themselves to be so compliant in being a medium for the voice for the terrorism, without which we would'nt have terrorism. The first thing terrorists do when they commit these attrocities will be to switch on the news (its like perverse reality TV).

In Rwanda thousands died because due to racial hatred being stirred up by radio broadcasts.

The fact is when bombs go off the media get a lot of coverage, sell a lot of news papers and the more sensational the more money they make. Don't let yourself become a victim and don't give into hatred (because someone wants to make money from it all!).

And each time the bombers have to do something more sensational, since we the public get progressivly more desensitized to it. Where does it stop? :cry:

PADI-Paddy
23-07-05, 11:56 AM
The catholic church does NOT excommunicate members of the PIRA or any of their offshoots.

Indeed some priests from the catholic church were involved in the republican movement ?

However in Northern Ireland we have a sort of 'peace' which I must say is better than being at war !!

Mr T.
23-07-05, 12:24 PM
The catholic church does NOT excommunicate members of the PIRA or any of their offshoots.

Indeed some priests from the catholic church were involved in the republican movement ?

However in Northern Ireland we have a sort of 'peace' which I must say is better than being at war !! Sorry Robert, I think you're mistaken. The excommuncation order came from the Vatican, regardless of how it might be interpreted or 'rendered' on the ground in NI. And yes, a number of priests have shamed and disgraced themselves by actively supporting PIRA. They are an affront to the Cloth and their ministry/vocation.

Under Catholic Cannon Law, it's against all Church teachings to have, harbour, carry any belief higher than that of the Church, with specific reference to membership of 'sectrect societies' (Masons, Mafia, PIRA being some examples). The reason? Membership of same is in direct conflict with the teachings of Christinaity - where you are preferential to those causes/membership over and above that of the Church, 'false gods & icons' etc.

PADI-Paddy
23-07-05, 12:46 PM
Sorry Robert, I think you're mistaken. The excommuncation order came from the Vatican, regardless of how it might be interpreted or 'rendered' on the ground in NI. And yes, a number of priests have shamed and disgraced themselves by actively supporting PIRA. They are an affront to the Cloth and their ministry/vocation.
It doesnt change the FACT that you will not be excommunicated for being a member of the PIRA. It has never happened.

Mr T.
23-07-05, 01:22 PM
Sorry Robert, I think you're mistaken. The excommuncation order came from the Vatican, regardless of how it might be interpreted or 'rendered' on the ground in NI. And yes, a number of priests have shamed and disgraced themselves by actively supporting PIRA. They are an affront to the Cloth and their ministry/vocation.
It doesnt change the FACT that you will not be excommunicated for being a member of the PIRA. It has never happened.
Correction: it matters not whether you or they accept it as a reality or working practice - they are excommunicated.

Mr T.
23-07-05, 02:00 PM
So are you suggesting that someone with a background in the forces would welcome this complete and utter redneck, macho bullshit?
No Lou, and as I intimated, whilst not being accepted as being a la mode on the ARRSE site, Bob's (and others') comments are to be found in their, ahem, ''raw and undiluted' form there.


I can tell you one who wouldn't right off. I am very sure that there are many more who also think that our ex-pat new member is out of line more than a chummy "warning".
Fair comment and Bob's last has been suitably deleted.


In fact, I would go so far as to say that the kind of drivel posted by "American Bob" does the armed forces no favours at all by association, and that encouraging to people to believe that members of HM armed forces would approve of this aggressive, racist tripe is somewhat reckless in the extreme.
Now, now, I doubt anyone was "encouraging" anyone to promote or acquiesce to any viewpoint or opinion :)

Mr T.
23-07-05, 02:07 PM
My hairy ARRSE :mad:
How about "we have a majority of not fuckin idiots on board mate, 'civvie' or not". Surely you can't be saying that all the ex/military types on here would be cheering such bollox, if it weren't for all us namby pamby hand wringing "better make sure they're guilty before we kill 'em" liberal civvies around?
I'll put that outburst down to you misinterpreting my post Dave. :)


"British" Bob, I don't like falling for trolls but well done, you've wound me up
Patently.


- sorry to hear you're so feebly endowed you have to come around spouting that sort of ignorant macho shit. When/if you're living back here (don't hurry)feel free to spout such bollox, but in my view you are advocating letting these 'people' win.

Dave.
So in repsonse to Bob's rather unfortunate submission you make another one by way of a reply? You're better than that Dave.

PADI-Paddy
23-07-05, 02:13 PM
Correction: it matters not whether you or they accept it as a reality or working practice - they are excommunicated.



NOT publicly by the church.

In a small country like Ireland Im sure you will agree that perceptions matter. The perception in the protestant community about this situation was unbelievable. Members of the PIRA. who were also 'Catholic' were able to confess and recieve forgiveness for mass murder.

But hey, they excommunicated DAVE ALLEN ha ha ha

Mr T.
23-07-05, 02:24 PM
NOT publicly by the church..... ....'The Church' in Ireland, maybe, but then the Irish have always managed and chosen to see the world through their own particular sepia-toned spectacles, what Rob? ;)


In a small country like Ireland Im sure you will agree that perceptions matter. Matter??! To some, they are all consuming. And with American help, real or not, "perception is reality".


The perception in the protestant community about this situation was unbelievable. Members of the PIRA. who were also 'Catholic' were able to confess and recieve forgiveness for mass murder. One reason I'm forever grateful that the Vatican administer the Church and not the Meisters of Ireland. Another example of the offices of Man corrupting an otherwise worthwhile practice.


But hey, they excommunicated DAVE ALLEN ha ha ha And where is he now his country needs him? He and his sense of humour were a genuine loss to that benighted province/'North of Ireland'*

[*delete as appropriate]

PADI-Paddy
23-07-05, 02:34 PM
Mr T,

Im sitting here now thinking what the fuck is goin on ???!!!!!****~}{@:><

The world has gone MAD !!!!!!!!!!!!

I was planning to take my family to Sharm maybe sometime NOV/DEC. The bombings dont frighten me, but my daughter is a little freaked by the prospect of it. It seems that any bastard with a perceived legitimate gripe plants a fucking bomb !!!!!!!!!!!!

Where does this end.

Mr T.
23-07-05, 02:49 PM
Mr T,

Im sitting here now thinking what the fuck is goin on ???!!!!!****~}{@:><

The world has gone MAD !!!!!!!!!!!! Only if we allow it to do so or accept that it is inevitable.

And, I've spotted the fatal chink in their amour - they can't kill us all and we have both a snappier dress-sense and better jokes ;) :D


Where does this end? Where all these things end - education. ;)

dave archer
24-07-05, 09:03 PM
I'll put that outburst down to you misinterpreting my post Dave. :)
Your post appeared to me to be saying that the only problem with British Bob's view (...send them all to Freakin' Allah...) was that it might upset the civvies (...we have a majority of civvies onboard who's sensibilities need to be taken into account). Implying that all non-civvies agree with such sentiments.
I hope I did misinterpret Bren.


So in repsonse to Bob's rather unfortunate submission you make another one by way of a reply? My response was unfortunate in that I should have cooled off before posting and tried to be a bit more eloquent. But personally I find BB's post a lot more than "unfortunate", and I stand by my original disgust at the idea that "...its time to keep the books [Manual Of Military Law] on the shelf and "Have at it" send them all to Freaking Allah"

As I said before, to do that would be to let the terrorists win. We beat these people by continuing to live in a free and open multicultered society, despite them.


Where does this end?

Where all these things end - education.
On this at least we agree :)

Dave.