View Full Version : Should this be Adopted as a UK Policy too?



jph6969
10-08-05, 12:33 PM
Subject: It's Our Country - real editorial

Australia - The Right to Leave

Our Country - YOU have the right - the right to leave !

After hearing about Sydney not wanting to offend other cultures by
putting up Xmas lights.

After hearing that the State of South Australia changed its opinion and
let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face
covered.

This prompted this editorial written by an Australian citizen. Published in
an Australian newspaper.

>Quote:

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some
individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attack on Bali, we have
experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
"politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that
our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I
hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to
Australia.

However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our
country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to
dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have
our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.

This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and
victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese,
Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of
our society, Learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our National Motto. This is not some Christian, right
wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and
women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly
documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our
schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of
the world as your new home, Because God is part of our culture.

If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then
you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, And we really
don't care how you did things where you came from.

This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this.

But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag,Our
Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you
take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

>"THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".

If you aren't happy here then f#@* off! We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted. Pretty easy
really, when you think about it.

I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will
also, sooner or later get back to the complainers,
lets all try, please.

No matter how many times you receive it... please forward it to all you
know.


Received this this morning and couldn't help but grin!

scubadog
10-08-05, 02:37 PM
Superb...and God damn right it should.

turbanator
10-08-05, 02:43 PM
I think it should be any country's policy.

I'd not move to Spain, for instance and want to live in an ex-pat enclave (conclave?, I alway mix them up :) )

Finless
10-08-05, 02:48 PM
Absokinpositivlutely.

scubadog
10-08-05, 02:51 PM
I think it should be any country's policy.

I'd not move to Spain, for instance and want to live in an ex-pat enclave (conclave?, I alway mix them up :) )
Very true...and as you know I live in Spain, and thankfully no where near all the ex-pats. :teeth:

littleH
10-08-05, 02:53 PM
I think it should be any country's policy.



:thumbsup: too right, i'll agree with that, i've been saying it for years. when i go abroard i try to speak the language and observe their culture.

When in Rome.........

Mr T.
10-08-05, 03:02 PM
I think it should be any country's policy.

I'd not move to Spain, for instance and want to live in an ex-pat enclave (conclave?, I alway mix them up :) ) A very valid point and serendipitous comment.

enclave

/enklayv/

• noun 1 a portion of territory surrounded by a larger territory whose inhabitants are culturally or ethnically distinct. 2 a group that is different in character from those surrounding it: a male enclave.

— ORIGIN from Old French enclaver ‘enclose’, from Latin clavis ‘key’.



conclave

/konklayv/

• noun 1 a private meeting. 2 (in the Roman Catholic Church) the assembly of cardinals for the election of a pope.

— ORIGIN Latin, ‘lockable room’, from clavis ‘key’.


And surely the joint responsibility of both immigrants and any host nation is to ensure and strive for greater inclusion as best it might - or face the very real prosepcts of disquiet from both sides when one side feels 'ghetto-ized' and the other object to the 'ghetto-mentaility'.


Though that's not to say that the UK-born bombers of London, nor those from the Horn of Africa now under arrest felt that they needed to bomb because they felt in any way under-represented in the UK: their minds had been scrambled by fascist criminals and extremists either from abroad (in the Madrassas) or by similar radical 'clerics' in the UK.

chrisch
10-08-05, 03:22 PM
Err... sorry to piss on the bonfire but the people writing that are the immigrants. Australia's native tongue is not english - that is the tongue of its settlers.

Chris

Scuby
10-08-05, 03:30 PM
Very well put, and I have to say I fully agree. Far too often the natives of a country are made to feel bad for being themselves. At Uni a year or two ago they banned any display of English flags etc during the World Cup or Olympics or something like that, in case the foreign students were somehow offended (hmmm, seeing a national flag displayed in its own country???). There was something recently where our Student's Union put up flags from all over the world during some predominantely British event... might have been St Georges day or something - and why? Because people complained that it was discriminatory (yet China day and India day and the other strange ideas they have somehow aren't...).

Unfortunately, I somehow can't see Tony Blair standing up, reading this out, and saying that he fully agrees and makes it an official national policy :sad:

David

Conor
10-08-05, 03:32 PM
Err... sorry to piss on the bonfire but the people writing that are the immigrants. Australia's native tongue is not english - that is the tongue of its settlers.

Chris
Yup, a devils advocate would say that any Australians not willing to adapt to Aborigine culture should F off back to where there ancestors came from. It wasn't exactly a vacant lot

Dominic
10-08-05, 03:35 PM
If you're going to get into *that* level of minutiae, Americans aren't American, and for that matter we're not English. Current thought being that humanity evolved in Africa, IIRC, we're immigrants too.

Besides, I don't believe the aborigines call themselves Australian, so it's perfectly accurate to say that Australian culture is exactly what the letter says it is. In the same way that a letter written by an Englishman about British culture wouldn't necessarily cover the Scottish or the Irish. . .

Mr T.
10-08-05, 03:38 PM
Err... sorry to piss on the bonfire but the people writing that are the immigrants. Australia's native tongue is not english - that is the tongue of its settlers.

Chris And sorry to counter piss on that bonfire, but when do we stop this norz and how far do we go back? In our case do we go back and demand that the Vikings' language and daily life now be reinstated in the UK as a la mode?

Further, Australia, when the Aboriginal peoples roamed their lands and territories and pre-dating the European settlers, does not have, nor has it ever had, anything like a 'native tongue' or unified language - ALL aborignal language is, signally, unwritten and strictly only an oral tradition which differs hugely from tribe to tribe.

Come on Chris. The Aboriginal peoples rightly have demands on culture and land, but no one would seriously seek to revert to a time "back in 'the Day'" - that surely would be Dreamtime.

dry suit diver
10-08-05, 03:43 PM
Err... sorry to piss on the bonfire but the people writing that are the immigrants. Australia's native tongue is not english - that is the tongue of its settlers.

Chris

aye and look how much they did to the country in the 2000 odd years they had it to themselves,
not that I am saying what the english settlers did was an improvement mind

Mr T.
10-08-05, 03:45 PM
aye and look how much they did to the country in the 2000 odd years they had it to themselves,
not that I am saying what the english settlers did was an improvement mind
Then what are you saying? Would you please be clearer, as the above seems nondescript and woolly at best? :confused:

Conor
10-08-05, 03:46 PM
I think the point is, as you guys rightly say yourself, that all of our cultures evolved through immigration. It has effected our languages cultures and genetics, any country should remain free to continue evolving, adapting and learning in this way. Saying that the opinions of immigrants are less valuable than locals is at a minimum xenophobic, if the legislature decides to accomodate the views and opinions of immigrants then it is either because it is seen, by the 'legislature' that it is the right thing to do or they are at fault, not the immigrants.

There have probably always been people resistant to change, especially when that change came from outside their nation, but luckily they haven't always been succesful.

The aborigines point, is just that, it makes a point, the current australians are an immigrant nation as well.

Is the problem that the imigrants have opinions? or is it that some immigrants are less welcome?

Conor
10-08-05, 03:47 PM
aye and look how much they did to the country in the 2000 odd years they had it to themselves,
not that I am saying what the english settlers did was an improvement mind
If I understand your point, it would be that they managed to live in balance with the place, not destroy it. Why should this be a bad thing?

dry suit diver
10-08-05, 03:54 PM
the point is they didnt do anything with it,

the settlers haven't destroyed it, or devalued it only used it better.

farming sheep etc (feeding the world?)
growing grapes for winemaking -that has to be an improvement on leaving to just do nothing

Conor
10-08-05, 03:56 PM
the point is they didnt do anything with it,

the settlers haven't destroyed it, or devalued it only used it better.
why should they have to do anything with it? Its the same argument used in the US for the near extermination of the native people. They had their culture which didn't involve using the land in the same way as us, didn't have a concept of ownership etc, why should these cultures be less valid?

Garf
10-08-05, 04:07 PM
Ahh, but they didn't have a flag. No flag, no country, those are the rules.

jph6969
10-08-05, 04:07 PM
I think the point is, as you guys rightly say yourself, that all of our cultures evolved through immigration. It has effected our languages cultures and genetics, any country should remain free to continue evolving, adapting and learning in this way. Saying that the opinions of immigrants are less valuable than locals is at a minimum xenophobic, if the legislature decides to accomodate the views and opinions of immigrants then it is either because it is seen, by the 'legislature' that it is the right thing to do or they are at fault, not the immigrants.

There have probably always been people resistant to change, especially when that change came from outside their nation, but luckily they haven't always been succesful.

The aborigines point, is just that, it makes a point, the current australians are an immigrant nation as well.

Is the problem that the imigrants have opinions? or is it that some immigrants are less welcome?
All very laudable, but precisely the problem. I have no problem with immigrants coming to this country, they more often than not add a great deal to our culture, but changing the culture to be the same as that from whence you came? Why not just stay where you were!

You try going to some countries and try to practice your own faith (or lack of) and see if you have the same freedoms as here, or even getting a job (not talking about Europe) or buying a car or property!

The problem for me is the lack of equality in that there should be some between countries, if we can’t do something in another country then that countries people should not be allowed to do it here.

For clarity an e.g.
If I am not allowed to own property out rite in say Thailand, the Thais in this country should not be allowed to own property out rite here.

Rant over, Now Calm!!!

And ducking

Conor
10-08-05, 04:09 PM
Ahh, but they didn't have a flag. No flag, no country, those are the rules.Doh!

You just reminded me, I was watching TV with my SO last night talking about going to a wedding in scotland next week when an add came on for that 'how to create your own nation' or whatever. In the clip one of the guys sitting at the table planning the nation was the groom from the wedding, bloody freaky

vid
10-08-05, 04:14 PM
why should these cultures be less valid?

no reason at all


but this still doesn't answer the original issue, whether it's oz, blighty or the states, how do you integrate individuals who willingly come to a country into a pre-existing culture, who (for whatever reason) do not want to "fully" integrate

vid

Conor
10-08-05, 04:15 PM
JPH

No need to duck. I see your point, I just feel that the individuals shouldn't be treated differently due to the rules in the country from which they came, especially as it may well be those rules that made them leave.

E.g. if a person leaves a Abusive state, because they don't have the freedoms they hoped for and comes to a country that has those freedoms, including freedom of speech, shouldn't he/she be allowed to voice his opinions on an apparent lack of freedom in the country he has arrived in? Doesn't mean anything has to be done about it, just that he has the right to whinge, and the rest of us have the right to ignore it if we so choose. The problem is more with the establishment that listend to every whinge and tries to change, not with the person that whinged

Conor
10-08-05, 04:23 PM
no reason at all


but this still doesn't answer the original issue, whether it's oz, blighty or the states, how do you integrate individuals who willingly come to a country into a pre-existing culture, who (for whatever reason) do not want to "fully" integrate

vid
The comment you quoted was responding to different thread in the debate.

In short, my point is how much integration is enough integration, the original post is nicely emotive and entertaining, but is just a whinge, taking its 'solutions' to the extreme would set us all back. Its the type of tosh that the BNP stuff through letterboxes

Scuby
10-08-05, 04:27 PM
Is the problem that the imigrants have opinions? or is it that some immigrants are less welcome?

No, the problem occurs when the natives are told we can't have opinions in our own country, just in case those opinions offend someone! And i'm not talking racism or anything like that, i'm talking about places not referring to Christmas as Christmas, or people being ashamed to show a British flag in Britain (or actually being banned from showing them, as we were!).

I'm all for integration, but don't think we should make a foreigner feel welcome by supressing any sign that they might actually be in the UK!

David

Conor
10-08-05, 04:31 PM
No, the problem occurs when the natives are told we can't have opinions in our own country, just in case those opinions offend someone! And i'm not talking racism or anything like that, i'm talking about places not referring to Christmas as Christmas, or people being ashamed to show a British flag in Britain (or actually being banned from showing them, as we were!).

I'm all for integration, but don't think we should make a foreigner feel welcome by supressing any sign that they might actually be in the UK!

DavidWith that I agree, PC can go to far, I blame the people making those rules and not those that the rules claim to protect (most of whom probably wwouldn't give a toss).

Telling those people that have been involuntarily 'protected' to F$%k off home (as in the earlier mail) doesn't help. (note: I am not suggesting you subscribe to this view)

(apologies all, waiting on scripts to finish so too much time in front of a PC)

jph6969
10-08-05, 04:34 PM
JPH

No need to duck. I see your point, I just feel that the individuals shouldn't be treated differently due to the rules in the country from which they came, especially as it may well be those rules that made them leave.

E.g. if a person leaves a Abusive state, because they don't have the freedoms they hoped for and comes to a country that has those freedoms, including freedom of speech, shouldn't he/she be allowed to voice his opinions on an apparent lack of freedom in the country he has arrived in? Doesn't mean anything has to be done about it, just that he has the right to whinge, and the rest of us have the right to ignore it if we so choose. The problem is more with the establishment that listend to every whinge and tries to change, not with the person that whinged
Agreed the state listens to minority groups to much because of well meaning political correctness.

We should not allow our selves to be pushed around. Where an immigrant comes to this country and is successfull in thier application, good on them, but don't then expect that your children have a right to be taught punjabi on the state buget, don't scream discrimination if you can't get a particular job because you can't speak the national language.

I think that immigrant camps should be set up in some of the disused Army and RAF bases (they have all the accommodation, catering health and leasure facilities needed) whilst applications are processed, surely it is not a big deal to give up your liberty for 3-4 weeks in these conditions? This would ensure that only those that are genuine would apply, and all could be taught English whilst waiting, I quite like the idea! They should also be required to swear allegance to the UK ( not the Monarchy).

Second rant over, phew

Jason

Mr T.
10-08-05, 04:56 PM
I think the point is, as you guys rightly say yourself, that all of our cultures evolved through immigration. It has effected our languages cultures and genetics, any country should remain free to continue evolving, adapting and learning in this way. Only true insofar as you're assuming those countries be plural democracies in nature, fabric and practice - alas, one of the key similarities of many immigrants to democratic countries is that arrive from despotic, non-democratic theocracies and oligarchies where democracy of any form is a pipedream - e.g. out of the 54 Islamic nations extant, none of them have anything resembling any form of democracy, and where they pretend to, voters have a very limited, theocracy-driven 'choice' of sanctioned candidates.


Saying that the opinions of immigrants are less valuable than locals is at a minimum xenophobic,... And who here would seriously attempt to punt that line? Even the alleged Ozzie text which started this thread doesn't go that far. The simple truth is that a vocal set of extremists make its 'wants and demands' known. The overly PC tossers in power then get polarity syndrome (and completely miss the consensus middleground where we all can usually agree at some level) and try and 'cater' for what they think the demands are and in doing so ride rough-shod over the majority view in their asinine efforts to placate the vocal minority, whilst painting the majority as the bad guys of the piece, which is palpable stupidity and serves no one's purpose.


...if the legislature decides to accomodate the views and opinions of immigrants then it is either because it is seen, by the 'legislature' that it is the right thing to do or they are at fault, not the immigrants. The above, too, is a common mistake and perception.

The legislature will do what the voters and gov't of the day seek to provide - most 'culture' or cultural presence just happens by seeping (thankfully) into society.

For example, what piece of legislation (other than Licensing Laws for booze) needed to be passed/be involved so that we/all could get our Egyptian-made cotton t-shirt from our German-made dryer and then leave our house, in a Japanese car, wearing trainers made in China, to go to an Irish Pub and after go to a Indian/Italian/French/Korean/Thai/Greek Restaurant where after the meal we'd enjoy Belgian chocolates? You see? A lot of what we take for granted is welcomed cultural seepage - and we're all the better for it. Legistlation only needs to be enacted if a problem or issue makes its presence felt in extremis - e.g. bombers (of what ever alleged religious or political hue).


There have probably always been people resistant to change, especially when that change came from outside their nation, but luckily they haven't always been succesful. And you're right, sometimes 'change' needs to be permanent and state sponsored - a la the Labour Pool of the 50s and 60s where we simply didn't have the post-War manpower to do some of the nation's key jobs (transport etc.) - and the poor blighters then had to run the indignity of the B&B window signs stating "No Dogs, No Irish and No Blacks/Coloureds" - thankfully times and attitudes have moved on and attitudes like this have been consigned to history's rubbish bin by a mixture of courtesy and legistlation. The problem is, when legistlation is invoked to deal with a problem like this it invariably goes too far and misses the point all together.


The aborigines point, is just that, it makes a point, the current australians are an immigrant nation as well. Without argument. Which nation today can claim to be otherwise - very few.


Is the problem that the imigrants have opinions? or is it that some immigrants are less welcome? I doubt that's the key problem mate - it's only a symptom. As with all Humanity - difference and aspects which one side distrusts or doesn't understand scares them. The Human Condition...

Plus ca change?

JAG
10-08-05, 05:24 PM
If you are a non national wanting to settle and live in this country, which I presume you're doing to enhance or better your life then bloody well adapt to our way of living! If you don't like the fact that you can't turn our country into yours then why the hell come?! SOD OFF BACK!! Simple really. No need for over analyzing.

jph6969
10-08-05, 05:31 PM
If you are a non national wanting to settle and live in this country, which I presume you're doing to enhance or better your life then bloody well adapt to our way of living! If you don't like the fact that you can't turn our country into yours then why the hell come?! SOD OFF BACK!! Simple really. No need for over analyzing.
Incomming green

jph6969
10-08-05, 05:42 PM
Only true insofar as you're assuming those countries be plural democracies in nature, fabric and practice - alas, one of the key similarities of many immigrants to democratic countries is that arrive from despotic, non-democratic theocracies and oligarchies where democracy of any form is a pipedream - e.g. out of the 54 Islamic nations extant, none of them have anything resembling any form of democracy, and where they pretend to, voters have a very limited, theocracy-driven 'choice' of sanctioned candidates.

And who here would seriously attempt to punt that line? Even the alleged Ozzie text which started this thread doesn't go that far. The simple truth is that a vocal set of extremists make its 'wants and demands' known. The overly PC tossers in power then get polarity syndrome (and completely miss the consensus middleground where we all can usually agree at some level) and try and 'cater' for what they think the demands are and in doing so ride rough-shod over the majority view in their asinine efforts to placate the vocal minority, whilst painting the majority as the bad guys of the piece, which is palpable stupidity and serves no one's purpose.

The above, too, is a common mistake and perception.

The legislature will do what the voters and gov't of the day seek to provide - most 'culture' or cultural presence just happens by seeping (thankfully) into society.

For example, what piece of legislation (other than Licensing Laws for booze) needed to be passed/be involved so that we/all could get our Egyptian-made cotton t-shirt from our German-made dryer and then leave our house, in a Japanese car, wearing trainers made in China, to go to an Irish Pub and after go to a Indian/Italian/French/Korean/Thai/Greek Restaurant where after the meal we'd enjoy Belgian chocolates? You see? A lot of what we take for granted is welcomed cultural seepage - and we're all the better for it. Legistlation only needs to be enacted if a problem or issue makes its presence felt in extremis - e.g. bombers (of what ever alleged religious or political hue).

And you're right, sometimes 'change' needs to be permanent and state sponsored - a la the Labour Pool of the 50s and 60s where we simply didn't have the post-War manpower to do some of the nation's key jobs (transport etc.) - and the poor blighters then had to run the indignity of the B&B window signs stating "No Dogs, No Irish and No Blacks/Coloureds" - thankfully times and attitudes have moved on and attitudes like this have been consigned to history's rubbish bin by a mixture of courtesy and legistlation. The problem is, when legistlation is invoked to deal with a problem like this it invariably goes too far and misses the point all together.

Without argument. Which nation today can claim to be otherwise - very few.

I doubt that's the key problem mate - it's only a symptom. As with all Humanity - difference and aspects which one side distrusts or doesn't understand scares them. The Human Condition...

Plus ca change? Can I have a copy of your dictionary?:shade:

Mr T.
10-08-05, 05:45 PM
Can I have a copy of your dictionary?:shade:
I see no reason why not - it is free, after all ;)

jamesp
10-08-05, 06:03 PM
I was in Australia in 1999, when refuges from Kosovo were arriving. There were problems of various sorts which resulted in an aussie politician standing up and saying something broadly in line with the original text. The upshot was that a plane was laid on to take the disgruntled refuges BACK! I still have the newspaper at home. The Aussie approach to politics, when compared to our own, can only be described as refreshing. If you think Paco's bad, the Aussie journos virtually open with "so your a lying bastard". It gets pretty close to Billy Connely's Smack in the Gob mindset.

Garf
10-08-05, 06:13 PM
Incomming greenoh don't encourage him for [Insert acceptable deity of your choice]'s sake.

onthetrain
10-08-05, 07:44 PM
Ummm... Now I'm not pointing the finger at any particular comment here, not picking on any post, justa generalised comment.

We in this country are very good at banging the 'If you don't like it here F off back to your own country' Drum. If you want to live here abide by our rules etc etc. Well OK. thats fine as far as it goes.


Now to play devils advocate for a moment why does that not apply in reverse. We export our yobs, larger louts and thugs all over the world and then there is a national outcry when one of them gets locked up for outraging some local law or other.

How big an outcry was there when the plane spotters were jailed in greece for photographing milatary installations. Of course thats a stupid jonny foregner law so it doesnt apply to us does it? Ever see a military installation in Greece signs everywhere warning you not to photograph and explaining the penalties.

Remember the nurse in Saudi a few years ago. Sentenced to be publicly flogged for drinking etc. national outcry, another barbaric jonny foreigner law. Doesnt apply to us does it?

What about all the drug smugglers in Thailand. Everyone knows the penalty is death. Every time one of ours is caught they were carrying a package for a friend and had no idea what it contains. Shame they forgot to mention that when asked at the check in counter. Can't have our lot bound by foriegn laws can we. There are hundreds of such examples, including the scouse liverpool fan in Bulgaria (?) right now. Another national outcry. Of course he is innocent as someone else here claims they did it. Shame the alleged real culprit isn't popping over to face trial though.

OK rant over. Point I'm making is if we want to play the abide by our rules card then we should be preparedto abide by 'thier rules' when we go there.

Alan

jph6969
10-08-05, 08:01 PM
Ummm... Now I'm not pointing the finger at any particular comment here, not picking on any post, justa generalised comment.

We in this country are very good at banging the 'If you don't like it here F off back to your own country' Drum. If you want to live here abide by our rules etc etc. Well OK. thats fine as far as it goes.


Now to play devils advocate for a moment why does that not apply in reverse. We export our yobs, larger louts and thugs all over the world and then there is a national outcry when one of them gets locked up for outraging some local law or other.

How big an outcry was there when the plane spotters were jailed in greece for photographing milatary installations. Of course thats a stupid jonny foregner law so it doesnt apply to us does it? Ever see a military installation in Greece signs everywhere warning you not to photograph and explaining the penalties.

Remember the nurse in Saudi a few years ago. Sentenced to be publicly flogged for drinking etc. national outcry, another barbaric jonny foreigner law. Doesnt apply to us does it?

What about all the drug smugglers in Thailand. Everyone knows the penalty is death. Every time one of ours is caught they were carrying a package for a friend and had no idea what it contains. Shame they forgot to mention that when asked at the check in counter. Can't have our lot bound by foriegn laws can we. There are hundreds of such examples, including the scouse liverpool fan in Bulgaria (?) right now. Another national outcry. Of course he is innocent as someone else here claims they did it. Shame the alleged real culprit isn't popping over to face trial though.

OK rant over. Point I'm making is if we want to play the abide by our rules card then we should be preparedto abide by 'thier rules' when we go there.

Alan
I think they should abide by the laws of other countries, and not get away with it, these are tourist not immigrants. But this surely is not the point. The point is that these immigrants want to come here and are welcome, just don't go slagging off and trying to change the country you have chosen to come to.

See comment by JAG

Jason

onthetrain
10-08-05, 08:21 PM
I think they should abide by the laws of other countries, and not get away with it, these are tourist not immigrants. But this surely is not the point. The point is that these immigrants want to come here and are welcome, just don't go slagging off and trying to change the country you have chosen to come to.

See comment by JAG

Jason


Jason,

Appreciate what you are saying, but not all are tourists in the examples I give. Nurse for example living & working in saudi as she could earn a lot more than here. Economic Migration?

For what it's worth I strongly disagree with the way some migrants abuse the welfare state etc, but surely one of the things we pride ourselves on as a nation is freedom of speech and the right to speak out against things we disagree with. Do we deny these rights to migrants? Surely not!

The 'if you don't like it here piss off back from whence you came' view just doesn't hold water IMHO. Many of those to whom this applies just don't have this option for one reason or another.

In my view that does not give us the right as a nation to abuse or discriminate against them. If they have the right to live & work here they have a right to say this country sucks...... :D

Scuby
10-08-05, 08:44 PM
OK rant over. Point I'm making is if we want to play the abide by our rules card then we should be preparedto abide by 'thier rules' when we go there.

Too right - and I think more of the British people who get caught doing things abroad should suffer the full penalty of that country. If that happens to be a death sentence, so be it. They know the rules before they choose to break them, and deserve anything they get. I think we should get rid of more of our own criminals that way too! If this liverpool fan is innocent, then Bulgaria (or wherever he is) should agree to release him as soon as the UK agree to extradite his friend to face trial. The same with those two Irish blokes who are wanted in Mexico or wherever... send them back to face the consequences of what they did, none of our governments should hide its people from their actions abroad - just makes us look stupid.

As for immigrants falsely claiming benefits etc, of course we should stop them... just as we should stop those lazy unemployed in this country who get benefits for turning up at the Job Centre once a week and spending 20mins looking for a job, then sitting on their arse in front of the telly for the rest of the week! Personally I like the idea you occasionally hear about giving them food vouchers or contributions towards utility bills - if they want the luxuries they should work for them (or at least be spending a couple of hours a day looking for a job, and take anything they're qualified to do until something better turns up). Of course for that to work we also need to tighten up the laws on theft, and have some harsher punishments for those who keep doing the same thing week after week who just get told "don't do it again" 3000 times!

Ahem! :angel:

David

JAG
10-08-05, 09:20 PM
Ummm... Now I'm not pointing the finger at any particular comment here, not picking on any post, justa generalised comment.

We in this country are very good at banging the 'If you don't like it here F off back to your own country' Drum. If you want to live here abide by our rules etc etc. Well OK. thats fine as far as it goes.


Now to play devils advocate for a moment why does that not apply in reverse. We export our yobs, larger louts and thugs all over the world and then there is a national outcry when one of them gets locked up for outraging some local law or other.

How big an outcry was there when the plane spotters were jailed in greece for photographing milatary installations. Of course thats a stupid jonny foregner law so it doesnt apply to us does it? Ever see a military installation in Greece signs everywhere warning you not to photograph and explaining the penalties.

Remember the nurse in Saudi a few years ago. Sentenced to be publicly flogged for drinking etc. national outcry, another barbaric jonny foreigner law. Doesnt apply to us does it?

What about all the drug smugglers in Thailand. Everyone knows the penalty is death. Every time one of ours is caught they were carrying a package for a friend and had no idea what it contains. Shame they forgot to mention that when asked at the check in counter. Can't have our lot bound by foriegn laws can we. There are hundreds of such examples, including the scouse liverpool fan in Bulgaria (?) right now. Another national outcry. Of course he is innocent as someone else here claims they did it. Shame the alleged real culprit isn't popping over to face trial though.

OK rant over. Point I'm making is if we want to play the abide by our rules card then we should be preparedto abide by 'thier rules' when we go there.

Alan I agree. If our nationals decide to break laws or whatever in a foreign land then they must accept the consequences also. I won't be ringing GMTV expressing my outrage. I may be wrong and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me if I am, but I don't think it's in the British mentality to want to emigrate and then want change their chosen country to be more like the one they left. Kinda defeats the object a bit doesn't it? Maybe the odd reminder of home yes, but not to change the laws or culture as seems to be the want of immigrants to our shores.

onthetrain
10-08-05, 09:25 PM
I agree. If our nationals decide to break laws or whatever in a foreign land then they must accept the consequences also. I won't be ringing GMTV expressing my outrage. I may be wrong and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me if I am, but I don't think it's in the British mentality to want to emigrate and then want change their chosen country to be more like the one they left. Kinda defeats the object a bit doesn't it? Maybe the odd reminder of home yes, but not to change the laws or culture as seems to be the want of immigrants to our shores.


Sh!t, now I'm in real danger of getting red blobbed here.

JAG, have you been to Tenerife or the costa del crime lately. British pubs, British breakfasxts and F*&kin coronation street on the telly. I made the mistake of going to los christianos last year and went into a resteraunt asking for tapas only to be told we don't serve that foreign muck here!!!! Kind of think thats changing the local culture a bit dont you? How many Brits inthese places speak even a word of the local lingo?

Oh dear, I'm in danger of going off on one. :D

Last word on this subject.

dry suit diver
10-08-05, 09:37 PM
Sh!t, now I'm in real danger of getting red blobbed here.

JAG, have you been to Tenerife or the costa del crime lately. British pubs, British breakfasxts and F*&kin coronation street on the telly. I made the mistake of going to los christianos last year and went into a resteraunt asking for tapas only to be told we don't serve that foreign muck here!!!! Kind of think thats changing the local culture a bit dont you? How many Brits inthese places speak even a word of the local lingo?

Oh dear, I'm in danger of going off on one. :D

Last word on this subject.


bet its not the last word on the subject from you :D


I agree with JAG and with you -look at the tottenham ayatollah ,omar bakkri whatsidoodle, on benefits ranting about how shite UK is, least he's f**ked off now , although he says he will be back for an Operation on the NHS -probably knock some ex soldier who fought in WW2 off the top spot of the waiting list- bet Tony spineless Blair and his disorganised shambles of a Govt let him back.

JAG
10-08-05, 09:51 PM
Sh!t, now I'm in real danger of getting red blobbed here.

JAG, have you been to Tenerife or the costa del crime lately. British pubs, British breakfasxts and F*&kin coronation street on the telly. I made the mistake of going to los christianos last year and went into a resteraunt asking for tapas only to be told we don't serve that foreign muck here!!!! Kind of think thats changing the local culture a bit dont you? How many Brits inthese places speak even a word of the local lingo?

Oh dear, I'm in danger of going off on one. :D

Last word on this subject. But there aren't any Ayatollah Rodneys or Sheik Barry's preaching hatred and calling for civilians to be murdered because the ketchup is Happy Shopper and and not Heinz..

Enough from me too. I've aired my opinions, and I need to pack for Scapa on Friday :D

chrisch
10-08-05, 09:54 PM
Err... sorry to piss on the bonfire but the people writing that are the immigrants. Australia's native tongue is not english - that is the tongue of its settlers.

Chris

And sorry to counter piss on that bonfire, but when do we stop this norz and how far do we go back? In our case do we go back and demand that the Vikings' language and daily life now be reinstated in the UK as a la mode?

Further, Australia, when the Aboriginal peoples roamed their lands and territories and pre-dating the European settlers, does not have, nor has it ever had, anything like a 'native tongue' or unified language - ALL aborignal language is, signally, unwritten and strictly only an oral tradition which differs hugely from tribe to tribe.

Come on Chris. The Aboriginal peoples rightly have demands on culture and land, but no one would seriously seek to revert to a time "back in 'the Day'" - that surely would be Dreamtime.

Err.. I think we only need go back far enough to prove this sort of biggoted shit is the outpouring of very stupid and pathetic little twats.

Australia and the UK are all the better for their many migrants (as many of the following post suggest). Picking on any sub culture or group is infantile and laughable in suggesting that they "devalue" the indigenous culture when the culture of the indigenous people has been destroyed by genocide as is the case in both Oz and the US.

The person who wrote the original message is a worthless sack of shit that fails to understand what has made Australia the country it is. Like the redneck Americans that think they speak "English" the author confuses immigration with culture. Why is someone that choses to wear the hijab and requires it to be shown on their bus pass an immigrant? That this person choses to wear stupid religious clothing is not in doubt but what is the difference between that and having a big cross round your neck? Would such an item make you an immigrant?

I know you dislike racism as much as I do Bren, I respect you for that. See this for what it is.

Shame on all that have supported it.

Chris

ANDY 64
10-08-05, 10:10 PM
If you are a non national wanting to settle and live in this country, which I presume you're doing to enhance or better your life then bloody well adapt to our way of living! If you don't like the fact that you can't turn our country into yours then why the hell come?! SOD OFF BACK!! Simple really. No need for over analyzing.


Suttle as ever :D


bit like saying " There ain't no black in the union jack , so send them ********************************** back "

dry suit diver
10-08-05, 10:11 PM
Err.. I think we only need go back far enough to prove this sort of biggoted shit is the outpouring of very stupid and pathetic little twats.

Australia and the UK are all the better for their many migrants (as many of the following post suggest). Picking on any sub culture or group is infantile and laughable in suggesting that they "devalue" the indigenous culture when the culture of the indigenous people has been destroyed by genocide as is the case in both Oz and the US.

The person who wrote the original message is a worthless sack of shit that fails to understand what has made Australia the country it is. Like the redneck Americans that think they speak "English" the author confuses immigration with culture. Why is someone that choses to wear the hijab and requires it to be shown on their bus pass an immigrant? That this person choses to wear stupid religious clothing is not in doubt but what is the difference between that and having a big cross round your neck? Would such an item make you an immigrant?

I know you dislike racism as much as I do Bren, I respect you for that. See this for what it is.

Shame on all that have supported it.

Chris


I am not a Racist I hate everybody the same.

really I am not a racist and am saddened that expressing an opinion that "if you dont like it in 'our' country shut up and feck off" causes somebody to think I am.

I have no problem with different cultures or immigrants who come to Britain ,for the vast majority add to Britains diverse culture ,live by our laws and express themselves through the ballot box (the accepted means in a democracy) and this is what makes Britain Great .What my beef is is the fact that we have to pander to every whim of the small minority who come to britain and then spout about how shite it is whilst we are not allowed to express our patriotism- e.g. we celebrate St Patricks day and lots of pubs get a late licence but we are not allowed to celebrate St Georges day or have an extension to the licence for that occasion -for fear of being called racists.

If being proud to be english/british and not wanting to have to listen to shite spouted by immigrants who come here to abuse our system and hospitality makes me racist then I am racist.

dry suit diver
10-08-05, 10:12 PM
Suttle as ever :D


bit like saying " There ain't no black in the union jack , so send them ********************************** back "

no its not that would be racist, what JAG says is true ,if its so bad being here go home.

ANDY 64
10-08-05, 10:17 PM
I am not a Racist.

Nor me, i just like to ride fast and do wheelie's :D

Chardy
10-08-05, 10:19 PM
Please tell me that you all have'nt seen this coming. The vocal minorities all over the country have taken partial control of the asylum in recent years. Not being able to fly your own flag in your own country is not right, it's lunacy.

The events of July have mobilised the many of the silent majority in the UK. It's probably lucky the right has no one to lead it or things could escalate.If you go and live in another country, take the best of your culture but accept that you are an immigrant.

I am currently an immigrant, living in the USA - if I don't like the culture, lifestyle, etc I adapt or leave.

I feel no shame in saying to others o the same adapt or leave,

Chardy

Chardy
10-08-05, 10:20 PM
Andy,

that deserved a green but it would'nt let me

IOU1G

Chardy

chrisch
10-08-05, 10:40 PM
If being proud to be english/british and not wanting to have to listen to shite spouted by immigrants who come here to abuse our system and hospitality makes me racist then I am racist.

No one makes you listen to shite mate. If you don't like Omar Bakari when he comes on TV turn over - I do he's a wanker......

I am not proud to be british - I did nothing to be born here it was an accident. I am proud that my country is tolerant of things that would be banned elsewhere and embarrased that tossers like Blair want to change that.

There's a world of difference between some pillock spouting shit on the tele and someone blowing themselves up on a bus. The idiots that do the latter are as much a problem as the wankers that think "immigrants" (whatever that means) are the problem.

Confusing culture and nationality is commonplace - the original quote does just that. It is utter bollocks and should be seen as that.

Chris

Diving Dude
10-08-05, 10:41 PM
Australia and the UK are all the better for their many migrants
Well if there were less immigration over the last few years, our little island would be a lot less crowded.

chrisch
10-08-05, 10:51 PM
Well if there were less immigration over the last few years, our little island would be a lot less crowded.

Sadly for this "fact" you will find more people have left than have arrived..

I suppose one could say a good dose of bird flu would clear some space too..

Immigration is a fact - it is part of what makes us human - we have always moved around the planet in search of a better life. If we had not we would still be a minority species living on the plains of Africa.

I agree that the population density in the UK is high, but this dates back many, many years and has nothing to do with "immigration" in the modern sense of the word. That is why we (the brits) begged West Indian people to come here to re-populate our country following WW2.

The world is overcrowded, but I think you will find many places are worse (if you dislike crowds) than the UK.

Chris

Diving Dude
10-08-05, 10:58 PM
Well if there were less immigration over the last few years, our little island would be a lot less crowded. Sadly for this "fact" you will find more people have left than have arrived..l keep on hearing this but according to my eyesight and http://www.world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=1123714487&men=gpro&lng=en&gln=xx&dat=32&geo=-1495&srt=npan&col=aohdq&pt=c&va=&geo=509489990 the population of london has expanded over recent years.

In my first post l'm talking about the last forty or so years.

Conor
11-08-05, 08:55 AM
The majority of that is migration not immigration. In fact it probably has more to do with the rate of reproduction and better heathcare than the level of immigration.

Conor
11-08-05, 09:21 AM
A question for those that think our immigrant friends should sod off.

What is the distance required to travel or the border you have to cross in order to be told to shut up?

If a Mancunian voices opinions on London?
If a Scottish person voices opinions on England?
If a Northern Irish person voices opinions on Britain?
If a Southern Irish Person voices opinions on the UK?
If a French person comments on the UK?
If an Italian person comments on the UK?
If a Bulgarian person comments on the UK?
If a Turkish person comments on the UK?
If a North African person comments on the UK?

At what point would you draw the line ? because if you draw the line close enough I'll have to shut up and sod off myself.

This debate didn't start with the discussion of terrorism and think that that, and the preaching of certain clerics should be kept as a seperate debate, simply as it is a lot more emotive and we run the risk of tarring the many because of the actions of a dispicable few.

chrisch
11-08-05, 09:28 AM
I think there has been an inflow to London in the last 10 years, mainly from the north of England. This is due to the change of our economy from manufacturing to services and Maggie shutting the pits down!!

I do agree that London is overcrowded. However the latest trend is people leaving London to go somewhere cheaper. AFAIK the London property prices have fallen in respect to the rest of the UK so this has stopped. Certainly when we sold up in Tottenham it was the case that where we were looking (Brighton/Shoreham) was going up while N17 was static.

One of the big problems with the UK economy is it is centered on the South East. There are too few houses so fuckwit Prescott is going to allow building on a major floodplain..... Many years ago I worked for the Training Agency (then the Manpower Services Commission) in Sheffield. The decision by the governemnt to place big job-creators like this in the north midlands was deliberate in order to revitalise the economy of places like Sheff. hit as it had been by cheap steel imports.

I am a leftie interventionist and think these sorts of schemes are a way forward - anathema to the "free market" brigade I know, but the free market exists mainly in the mind of a few rightwing economists and nowhere else.

Labour will always follow jobs. That's why here in Luxembourg 50% (yes that's right half) of the population are "immigrants". None of us speak the language and AFAIK there is nowhere to go and learn Luxembourgish. Everywhere you look there is new build both houses and offices. Generally immigration is a good thing it typically adds to GDP and per capita income. The problem is when the inflow is of people who are non contributory. Such a situation is unusual, mostly incomers are people who are looking to find work and better their lives. There are some exceptions the Roma beggars for example who are to be found throughout Europe.

The whole situation is very complex and it is easy to use stereotypes and racist nonsense to generalise about immigration. The sort of disgusting thing quoted at the start of this thread is an example. So many issues get sucked into the debate that muddy the waters refugees vs econmic migrants and the legal status of people moving around are all sub-issues.

I think it should be possible to discuss this without telling people to "go home" because they are different to the majority culture.

Chris

jamesp
11-08-05, 09:49 AM
The problem is when the inflow is of people who are non contributory.

Chris
Nail, Head.

I live in what could best be described as hicksville UK, if you want employees, you get the polish/russians/portugese et al in. They are filling the jobs in local hotels factories and shops because they buckle down and work. The local labour force will not, they are shite. This is not importing skilled labour, just manual, menial workers. They think they have landed in clover, the locals think the jobs are shite and not worth doing.

If I want skilled labour, I can get Czechs or poles in as long as I employ three from the same agency. UK workers? There are none.

On the other hand 2 years ago we had riots locally when the local sink estate realised that the immigrants being dispersed into this area were getting as much or more on benefits as they were.

dry suit diver
11-08-05, 10:02 AM
Nail, Head.

I live in what could best be described as hicksville UK, if you want employees, you get the polish/russians/portugese et al in. They are filling the jobs in local hotels factories and shops because they buckle down and work. The local labour force will not, they are shite. This is not importing skilled labour, just manual, menial workers. They think they have landed in clover, the locals think the jobs are shite and not worth doing.

If I want skilled labour, I can get Czechs or poles in as long as I employ three from the same agency. UK workers? There are none.

On the other hand 2 years ago we had riots locally when the local sink estate realised that the immigrants being dispersed into this area were getting as much or more on benefits as they were.




ah the wonderful Queens Park in Wrexham, Riots not just caused by benefit rates but fully understand where you come from.

Wrexham is a border town and has the Border town mentality-the locals dont like you if you are English, they dont like you if you are Welsh, they only like you if you are from Wrexham.I spent 5 years in college at Technical college at Plas Coch on Mold Road and they were 5 years of hell from the Wrexham lads in the same class, but I didn't complain because I had chose to go there

jph6969
11-08-05, 10:05 AM
I think it should be possible to discuss this without telling people to "go home" because they are different to the majority culture.

ChrisHi,

I put the original post up to open this thread, I did it cause when I received it it made me chuckle:teeth:

The thread has wandered some what and that's ok, it's people expressing themselves, which I have no problem with. So why is it "racist nonsense" to say "stop whinging or go home" if that is my opinion?

To make my position clear, I am not racist! I believe immigration does help the country. I do not however think the following is right:-

1) an individual saying that it is discriminatory to require people to show their face for a driving licence because it's against their religion, ie a habib (or whatever it is called). This is stupid, the photo is for ID purposses and needs to be able to purform that purpose, to do that you must be able to see the face, end of.

2) an individual saying that something it is offensive to thier culture when it is not to the British culture, the flags in uni example covers this.

There are far to many cries of descrimination or that's offensive used by minor groups to get what they want. Lets not forget that racism and discrimination goes both ways.

I hold by the sentiment of the original quote.

Jason

BSH
11-08-05, 10:36 AM
A question for those that think our immigrant friends should sod off.


I person I think should sod off is Omar Bakri Mohammed and people like him, apparently gets 18K benefits and now is going to have a heart operation on the NHS. :mad:

I hope they find a way to refuse him back in to the UK after his little holiday.

turbanator
11-08-05, 10:42 AM
I person I think should sod off is Omar Bakri Mohammed and people like him, apparently gets 18K benefits and now is going to have a heart operation on the NHS. :mad:

Do you really think he has one?

Conor
11-08-05, 10:43 AM
I think thats what they are putting in

Narced at sea level
11-08-05, 10:44 AM
Subject: It's Our Country - real editorial

Australia - The Right to Leave

Our Country - YOU have the right - the right to leave !

After hearing about Sydney not wanting to offend other cultures by
putting up Xmas lights.

After hearing that the State of South Australia changed its opinion and
let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face
covered.

This prompted this editorial written by an Australian citizen. Published in
an Australian newspaper.

>Quote:

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some
individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attack on Bali, we have
experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the
"politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that
our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I
hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to
Australia.

However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our
country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to
dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have
our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.

This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and
victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese,
Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of
our society, Learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our National Motto. This is not some Christian, right
wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and
women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly
documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our
schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of
the world as your new home, Because God is part of our culture.

If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then
you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, And we really
don't care how you did things where you came from.

This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this.

But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag,Our
Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you
take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

>"THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".

If you aren't happy here then f#@* off! We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted. Pretty easy
really, when you think about it.

I figure if we all keep passing this to our friends (and enemies) it will
also, sooner or later get back to the complainers,
lets all try, please.

No matter how many times you receive it... please forward it to all you
know.

ok - who here spotted the MASSIVE inconsistencies in this

considering that the people of European descent who currently reside in Oz are immigrants themselves in what was an already populated country - then surely thier refusal to accepand live by the Aboriginal culture is equally as insulting as people of other cultures wanting to continue to live by their cultural customs - jeez if they can't walk the walk and foloow the examples of their own rhetoric they should STFU.

therefore of course the statement that Oz in not a multi-cultural country is patently racist nationalist propaganda

jamesp
11-08-05, 11:02 AM
Do you really think he has one?
Maybe it's just exploratory surgery