View Full Version : Equal Rights for the ChildFREE!



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Keith L
09-01-06, 09:12 PM
Just what is so special about children? It's a known disease, we all know the cause, the symptoms only last for about 18 years - so put up with it! What is it with these people so they think they are somehow "special" and deserve special treatment and privileges as a result of their horizontal folk dancing? So, you've got kids - fine by me, just don't inflict them on everybody else and expect everyone else to pay for them and put up with the consequences for you.

It starts the moment they appear, children don't inherit their parents brains, they steal them. The appearance of a groin fruit is known to reduce previously sensible adults to gibbering imbeciles with only one topic of conversation. I remember sitting in the office one day whilst the fathers of two newborn's subjected the entire office to a two hour in-depth discussion about baby turds! Look, WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW, WE'RE NOT INTERESTED.

As if the roads aren't bad enough they clog them up dropping the little brats off at school and picking them up again. Rules don't apply of course because they are "special". A brat in the back allows you to stop anywhere, park on the pavement, ignore double yellow lines. What a wonderful invention children are, they allow you to do whatever you like and to hell with everybody else. They are allowed to scream, shout and run around in restaurants, you get your own special parking places at supermarkets reserved for you and your MP3 playing disinterested teenage brat. In the workplace they grant you some very special privileges, paid for by everybody else of course!

Now the workplace is a particularly good example. Months and months of subsidised holiday, the ability to come and go as you please, unlimited sickies because little brat has a sore throat - and everybody else is supposed to suffer to cover for you. Two particular incidents come to mind : The first was one of those rare occasions when I got at the holiday rota first (both bratted people were out tending their kids!) so I booked a couple of nice long breaks over bank holidays. Oh no, no, no - that wasn't "fair", because I didn't have children I was publicly berated for "stealing" the prime holiday periods, the people with children "needed" those because the brats were on school holiday! Then there was the up country urgent job, 8 hours on the road, a days work needed - those with children couldn't possible do that, they had to collect their brats, take them to football etc. etc. To my complete and utter amazement (NOT) a few weeks later, when a job needed doing in Vienna on a Thurs/Fri, child minders and other people to do brat runs for them were no problem at all and of course they were available to do it :rolleyes:

My rant is very simple : So you've got kids, OK, good for you, your choice, you did it. But don't expect everybody else and the world to revolve around you because of it. We're sick of your "but it's for the children" excuses, you expecting everybody else to make sacrifices for your chosen lifestyle. They're kids, they'll grow out of it, it happens all of the time. But special you are not, and there is an ever growing army of people who have now had enough of your selfish child centric ways and of you dumping your problems on us.

http://www.kiddingaside.net/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4600455.stm
http://www.childfreebychoice.com/
http://www.worldchildfree.org/

Keith L :D

Rod
09-01-06, 09:19 PM
Hear, hear, have some green.

Gary K
09-01-06, 09:30 PM
have some green.
have some more, I've a feeling you'll need it ;)

triplefin
09-01-06, 09:41 PM
:omg: :eek:


And have some more from me for being so brave.

Hope you've got a wall to duck behind tomorrow!:D

Surface Interval
09-01-06, 09:43 PM
The world would be a sorry state if we all thought like you.

yellowduke
09-01-06, 09:45 PM
Right on brother, power to the childless! :D

Jim

Diving Dude
09-01-06, 09:50 PM
You lot are right.
It would be unfair to inflict such miserable selfish parents on any children. :D

DiveBuddy2
09-01-06, 10:06 PM
Good point but I would sooner look after british nationals as to hangers on rant over before i get banned

DecoWarrior
09-01-06, 11:35 PM
i agree 110 % everyone has to change there holiday plan and deal with the traffic caused by these miserable brats the sooner we get them back in work houses or sweeping chimneys the better....

Wacker
10-01-06, 12:19 AM
Its about time sombody told the truth about winging pereants.
The amount of times I have heard pepole say their lifes will not change when they have kids and the kids will fit in then expect others to make alowances and put themseles out.
Dont be so selfish kids need attentive perants and if you arnt prepaired to totaly change your life don't have them we dont want to hear about your hardships cos you have kids.
Some pepole are in touch with reality and dont have kids coz they dont want the responsability that goes with them.

Scuby
10-01-06, 12:27 AM
There's a rather effective solution i've found: go to a campus university! I've been here nearly 4 years, and apart from holidays I can go 10 weeks barely seeing any children. Unfortunately they can still be found in Tesco... generally in a squashed trail behind my trolley! ;)

That said, you make an important point: its not generally the children I don't like, but the parents! Far too many of them don't even care about their own children, never mind the inconvenience they inflict on anyone else.

David

10-01-06, 02:55 AM
I understand what you are talking about, but most of this is nothing to do with the kids, it's usualy poor parents.

Having kids comes with certain responsibilities and restrictions, it can be a pain, but as long as people don't use it as a convienient excuse, then it should be given some tolerance - within reason. That is what I see your argument as - what is reasonable, but this has to be applied to everyone, children or not!. What happens at work when your wife needs to go to a hospital appointment and can't drive due to medication or similar? What happens if one of your parents is taken seriously ill while your at work? Should the people with children bitch about you leaving them in the lurch as you rush off to be the good samaritain? Come on Keith, get off your high horse and get into the real world, I'm sure the people you work with hate it when you bore then with two hours on how good a diver you are?

And what has any of this got to do with a dive forum? Looks to me like the pot calling the kettle black.

James

42
10-01-06, 06:51 AM
And what has any of this got to do with a dive forum? Looks to me like the pot calling the kettle black.


I ask myself the same thing quite often when reviewing the new posts.

Prometheus
10-01-06, 07:13 AM
possibly because it is in the YD non diving forum ?

Richie
10-01-06, 07:17 AM
........don't forget the little darlings will be contributing to your pension and changing your wee bags in a few years time.

It's called an investment in the future and no investment is without risk and potential pain :)

ahar
10-01-06, 07:21 AM
http://www.kiddingaside.net/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4600455.stm
http://www.childfreebychoice.com/
http://www.worldchildfree.org/

Keith L :D
Oh bugger off and go and potter around in your shed you grumpy old man :)

ratcliffe
10-01-06, 07:29 AM
Fantastic! Top rant, and the thing is, its completely true. I know exactly what you mean about the holidays at work thing, for the last 15 years I have worked over the Christmas period, partly because its easy life on those days and partly so the groin fruit lot could be at home with their kids. I needed a day off at short notice at the back end of last year, and would anyone do ANYTHING to accommodate me ? No, of course not, as you put it, little bratty has to be at football, (or was it leg-tagging at the Police Station?)
So have a green on me...

Lou
10-01-06, 07:36 AM
LOL - well said, Keith!!

If only having kids was more often a carefully considered decision rather than "it's what you do, innit?"...

Can you afford it?

Are you willing to change your life?

Do you have access to sufficient support?

Are you committed to parenting and educating the fruits of your loins?

Given yes to all the above, then great, fantastic, go for your life, but the number of folk if you ask them how they decided to start a family they look at you balnkly..

42
10-01-06, 07:40 AM
but the number of folk if you ask them how they decided to start a family they look at you balnkly..

from under a burberry hood or from between big gold hooped ear-rings.

bring on the parenting academy thats been talked about on the news this morning.(pmsl)

smudger
10-01-06, 07:43 AM
I ask myself the same thing quite often when reviewing the new posts.
ON a diving point then!
When the little chav BRATS come over with all thier sweetie wrappers, chocolate coated fingers and animal hair all over them from the latest pets they are persecuting to death shoving thier grubby little hands all over your kit cause they dont know how to look without touching. Asking inane questions and not listening to the answers because they are only intrested in the sound of thier own voices. Then as soon as your back is turned throwing balls, stones etc around the car park even though there is enough space on the beach for them to do this without annoying anyone (though I doubt that would be much fun for them as they might be a bit far form thier games consel, where they are honing thier skills to be real delinquents playing games that teach them that its ok to steal and beat up grannies.) Then if you do say anything you get thier neanderthal pearents that have obviously shot what few remaining brain cells they had left staight out on the point of climax coming over defending their little cherubs, telling you that its not them but you who should be out of thier way as thier bastard offspring with dubios perantage should be able play anywhere they want they have rights you know! Then pull out the big guns their little johnny etc. has ADHT or some other modern day allergy/ affliction cause the blame culture means that it couldn't be thier fault! I'll remind you kids have rights ok?

JAG
10-01-06, 07:45 AM
Just what is so special about children? It's a known disease, we all know the cause, the symptoms only last for about 18 years - so put up with it! What is it with these people so they think they are somehow "special" and deserve special treatment and privileges as a result of their horizontal folk dancing? So, you've got kids - fine by me, just don't inflict them on everybody else and expect everyone else to pay for them and put up with the consequences for you.

It starts the moment they appear, children don't inherit their parents brains, they steal them. The appearance of a groin fruit is known to reduce previously sensible adults to gibbering imbeciles with only one topic of conversation. I remember sitting in the office one day whilst the fathers of two newborn's subjected the entire office to a two hour in-depth discussion about baby turds! Look, WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW, WE'RE NOT INTERESTED.

As if the roads aren't bad enough they clog them up dropping the little brats off at school and picking them up again. Rules don't apply of course because they are "special". A brat in the back allows you to stop anywhere, park on the pavement, ignore double yellow lines. What a wonderful invention children are, they allow you to do whatever you like and to hell with everybody else. They are allowed to scream, shout and run around in restaurants, you get your own special parking places at supermarkets reserved for you and your MP3 playing disinterested teenage brat. In the workplace they grant you some very special privileges, paid for by everybody else of course!

Now the workplace is a particularly good example. Months and months of subsidised holiday, the ability to come and go as you please, unlimited sickies because little brat has a sore throat - and everybody else is supposed to suffer to cover for you. Two particular incidents come to mind : The first was one of those rare occasions when I got at the holiday rota first (both bratted people were out tending their kids!) so I booked a couple of nice long breaks over bank holidays. Oh no, no, no - that wasn't "fair", because I didn't have children I was publicly berated for "stealing" the prime holiday periods, the people with children "needed" those because the brats were on school holiday! Then there was the up country urgent job, 8 hours on the road, a days work needed - those with children couldn't possible do that, they had to collect their brats, take them to football etc. etc. To my complete and utter amazement (NOT) a few weeks later, when a job needed doing in Vienna on a Thurs/Fri, child minders and other people to do brat runs for them were no problem at all and of course they were available to do it :rolleyes:

My rant is very simple : So you've got kids, OK, good for you, your choice, you did it. But don't expect everybody else and the world to revolve around you because of it. We're sick of your "but it's for the children" excuses, you expecting everybody else to make sacrifices for your chosen lifestyle. They're kids, they'll grow out of it, it happens all of the time. But special you are not, and there is an ever growing army of people who have now had enough of your selfish child centric ways and of you dumping your problems on us.

http://www.kiddingaside.net/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4600455.stm
http://www.childfreebychoice.com/
http://www.worldchildfree.org/

Keith L :D
Different day, same old shite.. I take it you are not a parent? Please god, let it remain that way.

kath2407
10-01-06, 07:48 AM
At least I'm not the only one out there who feels like this. It really does naff me off when people can have days and days off because their kids are ill and it is classed as "special leave" basically extra bloody holiday. And all these special "working at home" privledges so that they can look after the kids.

I'm not saying I dislike kids, I have judt chosen not to have them (there is a "yet" in here too, I may yet change my mind!!) but what ever happened to equality.

Positive discrimination!

K XX

Odin
10-01-06, 07:52 AM
Absolutely agree!
Especially the bit about going of sick 'cos the little one has a sniffle... and holiday rota's... and why cannot kids walk 1/2 mile to school or if further get the BUS!

42
10-01-06, 07:58 AM
and holiday rota's...

love working over the xmas period, none of the managers are in, the roads are quiet and i can catch up on my sleep without wasting holiday.

colinpjenkins2
10-01-06, 08:11 AM
As a parent of two kid I agree. I dont expect other to look after my off spring. As far as the rant about pensions who's paying for me? I look at my tax, NI and pension deductions every month and I know who's paying for it I AM. Have a green.

Lou
10-01-06, 08:17 AM
C'mon guys. No-one is having a dig at the honest, fantastic, responsible parents, it is just a rant at those who use is as an excuse to take the p*** and the systems that let them do it!

Odin
10-01-06, 08:29 AM
"Don't do that Darling..." as the brats destroy the local shop... Gggrrrr....

Allan Carr
10-01-06, 08:30 AM
As a parent of two kid I agree. I dont expect other to look after my off spring. As far as the rant about pensions who's paying for me? I look at my tax, NI and pension deductions every month and I know who's paying for it I AM. Have a green.

No, you are paying for the current pensioners - it's the kids who will be paying for you.

Besides which, those of you who don't have kids are seriously endangering the longevity of you your diving career. What is going to happen when you get to my age and have back problems and don't have big strong sons to move your gear around for you?

ratcliffe
10-01-06, 08:39 AM
Fine, I'll play the reverse of this argument card and let all the little darlings pay for my dotage then :teeth:

calski
10-01-06, 08:44 AM
In fairness though, if we didn't have kids, who'd program the video for us?

ATB

calski

Woz
10-01-06, 08:53 AM
Well being a dad is great. Would nt have it any other way. However...

1. Kids will change your life. Always makes me laugh when I see friends who say it won't then 2 months after the new baby are gibbering wrecks smelling of poo and nappy wipes.
2. Kids need interaction. This could be a whole rant by itself but I'll keep it short 'cos it makes me really sad. Nope- I've changed my mind- I'll rant on a bit in a seperate post.
3. Kids need boundaries
4. Kids need families- most of the kids I know who have problems come from a rotten background
5. Other people's kids are horrible
6. Kids need to know that manners are just a nice way of talking to people and not something that should be rammed down their throats.
7. Kids need faily meal times round a table and to know how to use a knife and fork (and no you don't hold a knife like a pen)
8. Kids need love and for you to tell them that

Woz
10-01-06, 08:57 AM
OK- 2nd part of the rant...

While holidaying last year, I was on the beach at Swanage and as usual, playing with my daughter, building sandcastles, digging trenches and otherwise making a tit of myself. Within 15 mins we had a whole gang of kids playing with us, all having fun, digging holes, making sand sculptures and it was great. What was soooo sad was that all these kids were desperate for some interaction but their parents just sat there in their football shirts telling them off every few minutes. And you could see by their faces that they thought I was a bloody paedo.

It's a sad day when you can't enjoy spending time with kids. They are great fun as long as you interact with them. But yelling at them, constantly telling them off and feeding them nothing but crisps and SunnyD does not count as interaction. The amount of people who talk at their kids rather than to their kids is astounding.

There. Rant over.

Keith L
10-01-06, 09:06 AM
Well, now some people have accused me of playing devils advocate and stirring things up - as if I would do such a thing :angel: Yes I am a grumpy old man - and it's your bloody kids who have caused it! But in all the posts I have made on YD I have never had a response like this, the greenies have been pouring in and have filled the page twice over already - go figure what people really think :cool:

People are right in that it's not a rant about all parents and all kids, it's a rant about the selfish crowd who use their brats as an excuse for everything and expect the world to revolve around them and take the responsibility for them. Well sorry, it doesn't. You did it and it's your responsibility, and if you're not teaching your little brats that they are not the centre of the universe then you're doing a pretty rubbish job of preparing them for the real world. It's a bit like having a dog, there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.

In fact my dog is better behaved and with a better sense of social responsibility than some of the they-can-do-no-wrong delinquents in training that you come across. A good example of that was a while back when I was parked in the local playground (supermarket car park to normal people) and little brat pushed mummy's shopping trolley into the front bumper of my car, that made him laugh, so he did it again, and again, and again. Did the parents do anything? Of course not! They just smiled and dismissed it as normal behaviour. But when I used a sharp tone-of-voice to tell the brat to stop (the same technique I use to train the dog) and little brat backs off and whimpers - oh what a horrible nasty man I am, how dare I speak to their little groin fruit like that and frighten him, he's only a child you know! Look - it's an animal, it needs training and you need to be responsible for it, if you can't or aren't prepared to train it then stick it on a lead and don't just let it run riot and then whinge when other people have to do it for you.

And please, don't give me that garbage about "but they will pay your pension", like hell they will! Anybody who expects the state to look after them is living on a different planet, little brat will be paying for the completely unfunded public sector pensions long before anything comes the way of ordinary people. I am not expecting your little brat to pay for me, so don't expect me to pay for your brat and put up with your selfish ways.

It's very, very simple - I took the decision long ago that I did not want children, that is my decision to make, I am not in any way complaining about it and I accept full responsibility for it. If you want kids then that's your decision and I respect that. But start taking responsibility for your own actions, live within normal society and stop making excuses, and stop whinging about it and expecting everybody else to run around after you. You did it, it was your own free choice - now stop inflicting that choice on others and expecting them to put up with it.

Keith L

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 09:06 AM
Woz for "Best DAD of the year award"

Sensible being that he appears to be!

Mark Chase
10-01-06, 09:10 AM
C'mon guys. No-one is having a dig at the honest, fantastic, responsible parents, it is just a rant at those who use is as an excuse to take the p*** and the systems that let them do it!


No their not there having a go at all parents because it inconveniences THEM because their selfish.

We could have the same arguments for smokers. Why should i have to wait months for medical treatment because the hospitals are clogged up with thousands of people who spent the last 40 years committing suicide?

How bout non parents? why should I have to subsidies their holidays by paying twice what they pay to go on holiday during school shut down periods?

Divers, Why should the taxpayer pay for air sea rescue for leisure pursuits

The handicapped, why should my company have to pay tens of thousands to make it's self handicap friendly

Pensioners, why shod i have to pay tax to support miserable old git's who were to stupid to prepare for their own retirement

NHS why should i pay for people who pay 30,000 for a bloody car but are too tight to pay for their own medical care

Asylum seekers why should i pay for foreigners to come and live here just because their being murdered toarchered and deprived of civil liberty in their own country.

All these arguments are very old and very popular they are the sad rantings of people with no sense of civic duty or community. I think its fair to say that couples having children represent the vast majority of society. It is after all the point of life to bring more life. People who are not willing to make personal sacrifice to have children are the minority. Minority groups have a place and should be supported but it can be annoying when they start complaining about their lot. After all when your old and infirm some one else's children will have to look after you physically vie medical and social services and financially through taxation.

I doubt if you will complain about getting what you get but you will undoubtedly complain about how much you get and the lack of support you have and how things are not designed to accommodate your personal situation.

ATB

Mark Chase

Woz
10-01-06, 09:14 AM
Well some people want kids, others don't. That's up to them. Expecting others to run around after you just cos you have kids is a definite no-no. Bringing your kids up to respect other people and their property is a yes-yes. Everyone always comments on how polite and well mannered my daughter is. It's not because we've rammed manners down her throat but it's more to do with how she sees other people.

The guff trotted out about people dropping kids off at school is fine- but you get selfish people all over the place, parking in disabled spots, 1/2 way across pavements outside post offices and driving down a narrow street at 70mph.

And yes- I do expect time off to look after an ill child. If a parent can't, then who does? The teachers? The government? How about social services?

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 09:15 AM
Because you choose to have kids, why should the rest of us subsidise you? Not having kids I pay more taxes (not getting any benefits from the allowances given to those with kids) and yet my household uses far less in public services, not having children using the education system or health service.

Because you choose to have kids why should you get first choice of holiday times; why should you be guaranteed to get Christmas off while the childless have to work? My wife and I have had just two Christmas days off together in 15 years! Are we not allowed to enjoy our life as well?

Because you choose to have kids why should you get the best parking spaces at the shopping centre, as though you had a disability? You've got a pram; they've got legs. You're both perfectly healthy. Why do you need to be nearer? If it's a bit of extra work, well that's what you've committed yourself to, isn't it?

I'm not against kids - don't get me wrong. But as Lou has mentioned, some people seem to go into parenthood without much thought, simply becasue it's what's done. We then make it easier for them by giving them all kinds of help and privilages. Why?

Mark Chase
10-01-06, 09:16 AM
Well, now some people have accused me of playing devils advocate and stirring things up - as if I would do such a thing Yes I am a grumpy old man - and it's your bloody kids who have caused it! But in all the posts I have made on YD I have never had a response like this, the greenies have been pouring in and have filled the page twice over already - go figure what people really think


Same for me on the 'other thread' shead loads of green??

Shows what a devisive issue it is.

ATB

Mark Chase

Daniel Taylor
10-01-06, 09:24 AM
I must say that this is one thing that annoys me.

Other people want children - good for them - but why should everyone else have to pay it.

Government policy is that a bad tax must be balanced by a good tax (such relief). So, bad tax increase is brought with a child tax credit increase / trust fund / other "family" (i.e. child based) benefit. So what happens to those of us that elect not to breed? We only ever see the negative side.

Now, what I think is the worst of the lot, was when I went to the suppermarket the other day and noticed that the disabled bays had been moved away from the entrance to make room for more mother / child parking. Clearly disabled people are far more able to make there way through a busy car park than an able bodied mother.

And, if anyone works for the Department for Transport, they should suggest introducing volunteer "special" traffic wardens to cover the school runs. I would pay for that privilige.

<RANT OFF>

JAG
10-01-06, 09:25 AM
But in all the posts I have made on YD I have never had a response like this, the greenies have been pouring in and have filled the page twice over already - go figure what people really think :cool:
Keith L
Woopity woop woop. Mr Popular. Perhaps you should change the numerous amount of "you's" to "irresponsible parents" but then again, that wouldn't have fulfilled your goals would it, that to just stir.

Woz
10-01-06, 09:25 AM
Because you choose to have kids, why should the rest of us subsidise you? Not having kids I pay more taxes (not getting any benefits from the allowances given to those with kids) and yet my household uses far less in public services, not having children using the education system or health service.

Because you choose to have kids why should you get first choice of holiday times; why should you be guaranteed to get Christmas off while the childless have to work? My wife and I have had just two Christmas days off together in 15 years! Are we not allowed to enjoy our life as well?

Because you choose to have kids why should you get the best parking spaces at the shopping centre, as though you had a disability? You've got a pram; they've got legs. You're both perfectly healthy. Why do you need to be nearer? If it's a bit of extra work, well that's what you've committed yourself to, isn't it?

I'm not against kids - don't get me wrong. But as Lou has mentioned, some people seem to go into parenthood without much thought, simply becasue it's what's done. We then make it easier for them by giving them all kinds of help and privilages. Why?
I'll swap you your tax bill for my childcare costs.

My holidays are now bloody expensive and limited to school holidays. You have far more choice and can go anytime you like, especially when it's cheap.

Supermarkets put parent and child spaces there so that you can manoevre prams, pushchairs and all that guff. In the same way they put disabled spaces there. And supermarkets who put parent and child spaces in attract more customers with kids. Who spend money. And lots of it. It's as simple as that.

Yes- some people go into parenthood without thinking and expect a "right" to services. But don't balance it with the other side of the coin which is a "responsibility" to society to bring your kids up properly.

Wherever there is a "right" there has to be a "responsibility". It's your "right" to go diving and receive medical attention if you get it wrong. But it's also your "responsibility" to dive carefully and pay taxes.

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 09:30 AM
But JAG, it's not just about irresponsible parents - it's institutionalised within our society. It's in the working conditions, the tax system, our car parks . . . it's everywhere where allowances are made for children and parents.

Now you might not insist on taking your holidays during the school holidays, you might not use the buggy parking spaces at the supermarket, but I bet you damn well don't return your tax allowances!

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 09:33 AM
I'll swap you your tax bill for my childcare costs.


You got the choice - you didn't have to have kids, you didn't have to bear the costs. I don't get to choose what taxes I pay.

That is the point.

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 09:35 AM
Mark
please tell me what the tax allowances are for children, I dont seem to have received any?? Have I missed out for a few years or perhaps youre not actually correct here.

Matt

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 09:38 AM
Trust Accounts for starters. And there is still a family tax credit, whatever it is they call it now.

Mal Bridgeman
10-01-06, 09:38 AM
It's a bit of a counter intuitive thread IMO. The human race needs children. since the only "purpose" of the human race is continuation. If as individuals we choose not to contribute to the actual number of children, the least we can do is contribute to the development of the others'.

That makes sense to me from a "community" perspective.

What does not make sense to me is the way that articulate and interesting people change when they have children and lose the ability to have interesting conversations, they even lose the ability to speak in a recognisable language and also find it acceptable to go to functions with dried baby vomit on their clothes. ;)

Mal

Woz
10-01-06, 09:39 AM
Mark
please tell me what the tax allowances are for children, I dont seem to have received any?? Have I missed out for a few years or perhaps youre not actually correct here.

MattNot alot. It's like throwing a small glass of water out of a bath.

Woz
10-01-06, 09:42 AM
What does not make sense to me is the way that articulate and interesting people change when they have children and lose the ability to have interesting conversations, they even lose the ability to speak in a recognisable language and also find it acceptable to go to functions with dried baby vomit on their clothes. ;) Absolutely. The only thing duller than a parent going on about how great their bloody kids are is a teacher going on about bloody teaching [1]

Oooo no- there is a duller thing. Engineers talking engineering. But at least they know it's dull and don't inflict it on others.

[1] Or divers talking about nothing but diving....... flameproof hat on :D

Lou
10-01-06, 09:43 AM
No their not there having a go at all parents because it inconveniences THEM because their selfish.
*snip loads*
I doubt if you will complain about getting what you get but you will undoubtedly complain about how much you get and the lack of support you have and how things are not designed to accommodate your personal situation.

ATB

Mark Chase

I think you are taking it all too personally, Mark. This is NOT a go at all parents, not matter if you want to read it that way.

It is not about paying for other people's kids either - I don't think Keith raised that point once in his "rant". I have no problem paying my taxes and accepting that I won't necessarily (and hopefully) get back what I put in. I believe in a strong state education system - after all I benefited from reasonable schools and free university. I believe in the NHS. I support schemes to get young folk well trained and into work. I don't mind my council spending some of its cash on playgrounds, playschemes and sports clubs for kids. I am not even that bothered about child benefit.

I like seeing happy, well-behaved kids enjoying themselves. I think it is brilliant to see good parents spending time with their kids and interacting (to quote Woz :) I am not totally against kids in any way.

However, I do object to the use of kids as an excuse for some folk to be selfish or antisocial, and I do hate the lack of thought that goes into the HUGE decision to have them. You don't seem to think that many people put little thought into it, but as I HAVE to really think about (these things don't just happen) I have asked lots of recent parents and a majority of them fall into the "well, you just do, don't you" camp. The implications of having kids had barely been considered and the option of not having them not even thought about.

ATB back ;)

Lou

Woz
10-01-06, 09:45 AM
You got the choice - you didn't have to have kids, you didn't have to bear the costs. I don't get to choose what taxes I pay.

That is the point.I don't get the choice about my tax money being used to subsidise massive final salary pensions for the Civil Service though, do I? I would rather they got the same poxy deal that everyone else gets...

Flameproof hat getting a workout today.... :D

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 09:46 AM
Not alot. It's like throwing a small glass of water out of a bath.

I certainly agree with that, but there is a principle. None of these things we have talked about are major issues on their own, but they are everywhere and just keep chipping away at you. As a parent you probably don't appreciate just how much of it there is - you probably just take it for granted along with everyone else. For those of us who find ourselves excluded by not having children it's a constant irritation.

It is a form of discrimination - not only legalised, but positively institutionalised.

We are made to feel second class by our choice not to propogate the species. On a dying and overpopulated planet perhaps we ought to be encouraged?

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 09:46 AM
Trust Accounts for starters. And there is still a family tax credit, whatever it is they call it now.
Never received anything in the way of Trust Accounts, nor family tax credits.
I'd suggest that the vast majority of divers with children are in a similar position. To go diving requires a high income, that stops you receiving tax credits but it does of course mean you also have to pay full Uni tuition fees, you only receive a partial student loan as you are deemed 'rich'. Believe me I'd be only too happy to receive these supposed benefits. There are of course people out there who dont dive who receive these allowances you speak of not sure of the numbers but if the often quoted figure is as accurate as any other Govt statistic I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

There is also one other small point, those of us that have had children will be in exactly the same position as every other childless 'couple' in about 18 years time, actually its more like 25 but that's just luck of the draw I suppose. Until that time, we paying parents subsidise your road tax, car insurance and drinking costs.

Road tax - kids cars dont do anything like the mileage of a non-family persons car
Car Ins. - &#163;1400 a year and no claim means someone is being subsidised (last year) &#163;700 this year renewal in Feb
and as he only uses the car when he's home that's a big subsidy to someone
Drinks - How much would beer be if it was a minority market commodity?

Matt

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 09:52 AM
On a dying and overpopulated planet perhaps we ought to be encouraged

Some definitely :)

Matt

Mark Chase
10-01-06, 09:56 AM
Because you choose to have kids, why should the rest of us subsidise you? Not having kids I pay more taxes (not getting any benefits from the allowances given to those with kids) and yet my household uses far less in public services, not having children using the education system or health service.[quote]

Strange my tax code is exactly the same as one of my single employees?
Interestingly i have the same argumnet for the higher tax bracket. Just because I earn more money why do I have to pay a higher percentage of my income to support other people? I already pay more in terms of pure cash so why should I pay a higher percentage of tax?




[FONT=Comic Sans MS]Because you choose to have kids why should you get first choice of holiday times; COLOR]


Because we are told when our holidays will be by the schools we have no choice. We also pay a maive premium to go no holiday during school holidays and you would have to be quite mad to go away an pay such a premium if you don't have children so theoretical it should be fine.



why should you be guaranteed to get Christmas off while the childless have to work? My wife and I have had just two Christmas days off together in 15 years! Are we not allowed to enjoy our life as well?[/


Because Christmas is for kids. Personally id rather work through the cold miserable weather. Ironically my staff always ask to work through Christmas but then their kids have all grown up.




[COLOR=#4b0082]Because you choose to have kids why should you get the best parking spaces at the shopping center, as though you had a disability? You've got a pram; they've got legs. You're both perfectly healthy. Why do you need to be nearer? If it's a bit of extra work, well that's what you've committed yourself to, isn't it?

It has nothing to do with distance and everything to do with space to open the doors to get the baby's into the car chairs safely. Its not passable to safely carry a baby open a door and place them in a car seat with the space allocated to able bodied drivers. Its only for parents with baby's but of course some people take the piss.





I'm not against kids - don't get me wrong. But as Lou has mentioned, some people seem to go into parenthood without much thought, simply because it's what's done. We then make it easier for them by giving them all kinds of help and privileges. Why?



Thats realy funny. I would suggest most parents feel persecuted not helped. Were charged extra for most things we loose a big chunk of our freedom and were made to feel like pariahs in a lot of environments. However the benefits in terms of a sense of purpose are very rewarding so I am not complaining.

But again it all comes back to the fact my children will have to support you far a lot longer than you had to support them. You will retire at what 50-55? as a police officer. And then my children will be paying for you for the next 30-40 years.

ATB

Mark Chase

ANDY 64
10-01-06, 09:57 AM
Different day, same old shite.. I take it you are not a parent? Please god, let it remain that way.


:D

Do you think that people said this to KL's Parents before they did the duty .

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 10:06 AM
It has nothing to do with distance and everything to do with space to open the doors to get the baby's into the car chairs safely. Its not passable to safely carry a baby open a door and place them in a car seat with the space allocated to able bodied drivers. Its only for parents with baby's but of course some people take the piss.
ATB

Mark Chase[/QUOTE]

I think the point being made is that the disabled chappy/chappess trying to get his/her wheelchair/walking stick in place also needs the space and may also need to open their car doors wider.

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 10:09 AM
But again it all comes back to the fact my children will have to support you far a lot longer than you had to support them. You will retire at what 50-55? as a police officer. And then my children will be paying for you for the next 30-40 years.


Well, no they won't. As Woz so insisively pointed out I will be happily living on my police pension (which is not so heavily subsidised as the Daily Mail would have you believe) and the life expectancy of a retired police officer is only 5 to 10 years.

Not the point you were making, though. I presume you were making the general argument that we need the next generation to support us and allow our society to survive, and so our social systems should be geared around what is considered to be the general pattern of behaviour. That's fair enough.

I never said I'd refuse to pay my taxes. I never park my car in the parent's spaces. I continue to work every bloody Christmas. I do it even if I don't like it. Just taking this opportunity to have a bloody good rant about it!

(Which, of course, is what this forum is for!)

ahar
10-01-06, 10:16 AM
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]Because you choose to have kids, why should the rest of us subsidise you? Not having kids I pay more taxes (not getting any benefits from the allowances given to those with kids) and yet my household uses far less in public services, not having children using the education system or health service.

Rubbish. By living in a society you are gaining myriad benefits from it (medical services, defence, rubbish collected, roads maintained etc) without taking any of the responsibility for it's continuation by having kids. By not sacrificing part of your personal life to ensure there are kids produced to keep it running (and so providing its essential services), you are taking far far more benefit than you put in.

You're like the BSAC club member who uses the club's kit and helps pay for the servicing, but never helps pay for it's replacement.

People forget this when ranting on about subsidising other people's kids.

chrisch
10-01-06, 10:19 AM
This is an inglish thing right? Where else in yurrup are kids banned from resturants and looked at as a nuisance everywhere they go?

All our neighbours in Italy made a big fuss of our nephew when he visited like some long-lost relative. Strangers will pat little children on the head and talk to them. No one thinks this is odd or that the stranger is a peedie. I went to the local school in my home town just outside of Peterborough and with the exception of my mate's kids (who knew me) all the little nippers pointed at me and shouted "stranger!". (How much I wanted to point back at them and shout "fuck you" you cannot imagine, but it would not have been a very good example I suppose :D)

Children are neither nice nor horrible they are a reflection of the people that brought them into the world and bring them up.

Everybody likes kids - you can't help it - its in your genes.

Except the inglish. Who would rather have a "cute puppy". Mind they only want the dog so they can let it shit on the neighbour's lawn. (Except Woz) ('cos he's a bit Polish innit).

Chris

Jim Shaw
10-01-06, 10:20 AM
Brilliant topic, have some very well deserved green,:thumbsup:

gunsentry
10-01-06, 10:21 AM
Because you choose to have kids, why should the rest of us subsidise you? Not having kids I pay more taxes (not getting any benefits from the allowances given to those with kids) and yet my household uses far less in public services, not having children using the education system or health service.

Because you choose to have kids why should you get first choice of holiday times; why should you be guaranteed to get Christmas off while the childless have to work? My wife and I have had just two Christmas days off together in 15 years! Are we not allowed to enjoy our life as well?

Because you choose to have kids why should you get the best parking spaces at the shopping centre, as though you had a disability? You've got a pram; they've got legs. You're both perfectly healthy. Why do you need to be nearer? If it's a bit of extra work, well that's what you've committed yourself to, isn't it?

I'm not against kids - don't get me wrong. But as Lou has mentioned, some people seem to go into parenthood without much thought, simply becasue it's what's done. We then make it easier for them by giving them all kinds of help and privilages. Why?



Should have submitted your leave application in earlier to get you the time off you wanted.

Never seen a family only parking space yet in any supermarket, who's to stop you parking in it.

Never mind in a coupe of decades who is going to remember you anyway - The government will take all you worldly goods you have left and distribute them to someone else. Probably a low income family with kids :)

Vicky_scuba_chick
10-01-06, 10:22 AM
By living in a society you are gaining myriad benefits from it (medical services, defence, rubbish collected, roads maintained etc) without taking any of the responsibility for it's continuation by having kids. By not sacrificing part of your personal life to ensure there are kids produced to keep it running


does it not make people worry about the 'yobs' and 'anti social' kids that are gonna be 'continuing the human race'?? it makes me wonder what the future is gonna be like if these 'yobs' etc are the ones responsible for keeping us going.

Woz
10-01-06, 10:23 AM
does it not make people worry about the 'yobs' and 'anti social' kids that are gonna be 'continuing the human race'?? it makes me wonder what the future is gonna be like if these 'yobs' etc are the ones responsible for keeping us going.That's just sooooo Daily Mail. Yes- there is a whole load of people who lack social skills. But there are equally a load of people who care- look at Jamie's Dinners for example.

Mark Chase
10-01-06, 10:27 AM
I think you are taking it all too personally, Mark. This is NOT a go at all parents, not matter if you want to read it that way.


Honestly I am not. Most of this doesn't apply to me. I earn enough money to have a full time live in nanny, i run my own business as does my wife and we can be totally flexible with all aspects of parenting and we get little or no help from the government because of our financial position and because we choose to be that way. Private health care and soon private education for our children.

No this is not personal in any way I am fighting for parents far less fortunate than me




However, I do object to the use of kids as an excuse for some folk to be selfish or antisocial, and I do hate the lack of thought that goes into the HUGE decision to have them. You don't seem to think that many people put little thought into it, but as I HAVE to really think about (these things don't just happen) I have asked lots of recent parents and a majority of them fall into the "well, you just do, don't you" camp. The implications of having kids had barely been considered and the option of not having them not even thought about.

On this I am in full agreement, I don't like any group using their situation to justify antisocial behavior. I could write a lits a page long of the people who do things that are totally unacceptable and calm special rights. As a parent I do not support this any more than I hope as an animal rights campaigner you don't support the violent criminal and destructive nature of some of your fellow activists. However whilst personally I sometimes struggle to see the point of wasting money looking after animals when humans are suffering
I can take a step back from my personal prejudice and see that for the sake of a decent society it is necessary.

I wish some of the people commenting on this subject would do the same and take a step back to look at how much they have / will take out of society for sometimes selfish reasons like drinking smoking being overweight partaking in dangerous sports like diving etc. and for the time they spent at school university and later on pensions.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mal Bridgeman
10-01-06, 10:28 AM
does it not make people worry about the 'yobs' and 'anti social' kids that are gonna be 'continuing the human race'?? it makes me wonder what the future is gonna be like if these 'yobs' etc are the ones responsible for keeping us going.

There's a bit of a difference between the continuation of the Human Race and the continuation of English Society, in my view.

I am sure the decay of the English Society will eventually lead to the takeover of it by another more "predatory" society ... but either way the Human Race will continue.

Rgrds
Mal

Vicky_scuba_chick
10-01-06, 10:30 AM
There's a bit of a difference between the continuation of the Human Race and the continuation of English Society, in my view.

I am sure the decay of the English Society will eventually lead to the takeover of it by another more "predatory" society ... but either way the Human Race will continue.

Rgrds
Mal

LOL fair play. ;) i did mean the english society rather than the human race!

purple vonny
10-01-06, 10:31 AM
There are good parents and bad parents.
There are nice kids and shitty chavs.
There are people who don't take the piss and people who believe they are entitled to everything going.
There are narrow minded people and broad minded people.
Not everyone is the same.

This would be a good rant if it was meant to be tongue in cheek but honestly, you lot, sometimes I despair.

I am now off to see my friend and her new baby. It has taken her quite a few years to conceive and have this child. I am happy for her. I have 2 boys in their 20s. They both walked and cycled to school and back after the age of 8. They are both working and responsible members of society. They are polite, don't drop litter, and both have a positive and intelligent outlook on life, other people and the world in general.

I have never asked for special considerations at work.

People are not all the same.

Stop ranting.

Your blood pressure will rise and make you ill if you keep being this angry. Then you won't be fit to dive any more.

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 10:33 AM
I am sure the decay of the English Society will eventually lead to the takeover of it by another more "predatory" society ... but either way the Human Race will continue.

Rgrds
Mal

IMO once we've released all the fossil fuel into the environment, built more Nuclear Power stations etc.... the statement above will be irrelevant.

I for one chose not to have children as I do not feel that I should inflict a "mini me" on the world, plus I cannot see that I would be being fair to them as they have to correct all the shit we and previous recent generations have created. Selfish - IMO - NO.

P.S. Am a happy tax payer - happy to pay back what I received.

calski
10-01-06, 10:38 AM
AH... to bring a slightly lighter note to the conversation... nobody discusses this whole topic more effectively that The Simpsons! Remember the episode when Marge has to battle SSCCATAGAPP (Singles, Seniors, Childless Couples And Teens And Gays Against Parasitic Parents) ???

Classic!

I thought it was funny in that the SSCCATAGAPP (Singles, Seniors, Childless Couples And Teens And Gays Against Parasitic Parents) are defeated by the bugs the kids carry and them having no immunity to them... nice...

Ho hum... kids eh? Glad I'm not one anymore... mind you, I now understand why my mum kept saying "enjoy school - best time of your life!" DAMMIT! Why didn't I LISTEN!!!????!!!!

Regards,

calski

chrisch
10-01-06, 10:43 AM
does it not make people worry about the 'yobs' and 'anti social' kids that are gonna be 'continuing the human race'?? it makes me wonder what the future is gonna be like if these 'yobs' etc are the ones responsible for keeping us going.

There is a book by Charles Moore about how in another generation the US will be hispanic. Its a right-wing racist view of things since the author is a right wing prat. However, the extrapolation of who is reproducing and who isn't makes for interesting debate.

Looked at globally the highest reproduction rates are amongst the poorest of people. Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Sub-Saharan Africa are where the highest birth rates per capita can be found. In developed countries and Europe in particular the birth rate is now so low that populations are decining. Italy is a prime exaple as many young women now chose either to have only one child or none at all despite the best efforts of the Catholic Church.

Within a given country the demographic are similarly reproduced. The highest birth rates tend to be amongst the lower socio-economic groups. The reasons are obvious if you think about it. Low income families get state help with increasing child numbers and high earners lose income from being off work.

Again, while much of this has come about through very understandable circumstances the effects are potentialy worrying. It is right and proper that parents should be helped financially. Giving everyone an equal start is the most important thing we can do for the next generation.

However, look at the reality. Poor kids end up in shitty schools where a pattern of misbehaviour is ingrained into them through peer pressure. The selfish arsehole parents we all hate take advantage of the good intentions of the system to ensure that they (the parents) get everything on a plate. Their kids cannot be touched and run wild, contaminating everyone around them.

This group of people is increasing.

Rich kids go to private schools and get a good education. However, the sheilding from real life leaves many of them badly adjusted to life. The parents of this group are neurotic and believe everyone is a peedie and that all the oiks on the council estate want to pinch their car. The buy houses with alarms and flats with entry systems. Soon they will live in compounds like they do in Chicago and much of Africa. They employ private police who stop passers-by and ask what their business is in the area. Without a good answer they are "escorted off".

Kids and school should be a great leveler in society. Parents meet their neighbours and the kids meet other kids of different backgrounds and cultures. Shools however are divisive and of all things we have "faith" schools, but everyone wants them as the SATs are good.

Where will it end? I don't know. But if you run the model forward it points to a very divided society and not one I like the look of.

Chris

Prometheus
10-01-06, 10:44 AM
"The young are disrespectful to the old and spend their time drinking and carousing with not a care for others" not a direct quote but this was said I believe by W.Shakespeare , Its been going on for ages, only the technology to complain about it has changed.

Mark Chase
10-01-06, 10:45 AM
. Just taking this opportunity to have a bloody good rant about it!

(Which, of course, is what this forum is for!)




Well thats fair enough then :D


ATB

Mark Chase

Vicky_scuba_chick
10-01-06, 10:48 AM
There is a book by Charles Moore about how in another generation the US will be hispanic. Its a right-wing racist view of things since the author is a right wing prat. However, the extrapolation of who is reproducing and who isn't makes for interesting debate.

.....
Where will it end? I don't know. But if you run the model forward it points to a very divided society and not one I like the look of.

Chris

Chris, this sounds like it would make interesting reading, what is the title of the book??

Keith L
10-01-06, 10:51 AM
It has nothing to do with distance and everything to do with space to open the doors to get the baby's into the car chairs safely. Its not passable to safely carry a baby open a door and place them in a car seat with the space allocated to able bodied drivers. Its only for parents with baby's but of course some people take the piss.That's my whole point :) Fine, you do need extra space around the car for the pushchair, plenty of that a bit further away from the door. It's the 4x4 Chelsea Tractor brigade with their two perfectly mobile snotty nosed teens who demand these facilities "because of the darling children" that annoy me! I had one of them with the teen brat in the car have a right go at me for using a mother and child parking space, the fact that the wife was on crutches at the time was irrelevant because their brat gave them the "right" to that space.

That's what the rant is about, it's about the pushy parents who demand everything and are always right becuase they have a brat or two to use as an excuse. Your kids, your problem - not mine.

K

Woz
10-01-06, 10:55 AM
That's my whole point :) Fine, you do need extra space around the car for the pushchair, plenty of that a bit further away from the door. It's the 4x4 Chelsea Tractor brigade with their two perfectly mobile snotty nosed teens who demand these facilities "because of the darling children" that annoy me! I had one of them with the teen brat in the car have a right go at me for using a mother and child parking space, the fact that the wife was on crutches at the time was irrelevant because their brat gave them the "right" to that space.

That's what the rant is about, it's about the pushy parents who demand everything and are always right becuase they have a brat or two to use as an excuse. Your kids, your problem - not mine.

KI would have given her a right mouthful. Child spaces are for parents with kids who need lifting out and popping into pushchairs, not for idle tossers in 4x4 with teenagers. Now- 4x4's. There's a whole new rant. They should be taxed until they squeak unless you have a bloody good reason for buying one. like towing a RIB :D

See- it's the whole "rights" and "responsibilities" thing again. They have the "right" to buy a 4x4 and stuff it in a child space but also have the "responsibility" to drive and park it sensibly and pay for the privilege of owning one.

ANDY 64
10-01-06, 11:30 AM
Keith

Do you want me to send you a shovel or a lifejacket ? :D

ANDY 64
10-01-06, 11:54 AM
Because you choose to have kids, why should the rest of us subsidise you? Not having kids I pay more taxes (not getting any benefits from the allowances given to those with kids) and yet my household uses far less in public services, not having children using the education system or health service.

I bet you have use the health service more than what my 2 boys put together, with the education system YES, they have used more as last year not one of them had a single unofficial day or time off school.




Because you choose to have kids why should you get first choice of holiday times; why should you be guaranteed to get Christmas off while the childless have to work? My wife and I have had just two Christmas days off together in 15 years! Are we not allowed to enjoy our life as well?

I wish i did have a choice on when i could take my holidays.
Just because your wife and you have chosen your career paths and contain shift work, then along the line you shall be rostered to work Christmas, new year and Easter.... bit like all the other shift workers in the world.

I remember as a child when my Dad was a Coastguard, that i hardly ever saw him over the christmas holidays, but he had to work and support his family, so it was tough all round. It's called " THAT'S LIFE ".

When i wasn't married or had kids, and was rostered not to work over a holiday, i used to do shift changes with those that did have families and take my time off at a later date. It's called being friendily and probably why i was much respected amongst the chosen few.

You can enjoy life as much or as little as you like ,,,,, LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT.



Because you choose to have kids why should you get the best parking spaces at the shopping centre, as though you had a disability? You've got a pram; they've got legs. You're both perfectly healthy. Why do you need to be nearer? If it's a bit of extra work, well that's what you've committed yourself to, isn't it?

I think this hard to believe, as a policeman shouldn't you encourage this sort of thing...... Being a gentleman.

Would you help my kids or an old lady cross the road, rather than them attempting it on thier own, may be getting run over in the process ?

Would you give someone the time ?

would you give someone directions ?

Help a lady with her shopping after her parm has toppled over ?



Plus at the end of the day, if you didn't have a few kids acting as litle buggers, then we would be saving on my taxes by having less policeman .

Thats less policeman being able to have nice fancy sports cars, nice clutterfree / kids toys around houses, also affecting the sunny climes where policeman may spend thier time on diving holidays.

Yep, decided , my plan on getting married late in life and having kids, was the best thing i ever did.

turbanator
10-01-06, 11:55 AM
Well this is an interesting thread.
I'm not going to bore you with my own circumstances, but although childless, I've seen both sides of this argument.

To me, it seems all about choice, especially in this day and age with methods of contraception. We can choose to have children or not.

Kirstie and I have no kids, but we also have a pretty flexible lifestyle.
Were we to have children, then as much as possible we'd try to carry on as normal, so they sprogs'd fit in with us, but obviously it would involve far less disposable income and less flexibility about dive trips, holidays etc. etc.
Personally, I don't think that a wide parking space when I visit Tesco or Sainsbury would make up for that.

The flexibility of being able to take off for a weekend/week or go out whenever we feel like it is great, no babysitters or extra places to pay for, no worries about who to trust the kids with if we want to dive together, no rushing back for a baby sitter if I drink a bit too much and decide to take up hosts' on the offer of crashing on their sofa.
If we go away for a bank holiday and (work permitting) decide to stay an extra day or so, then that's fine.

I'd really have to think long and hard before giving that up, but if I/we did, that's be our choice.

What gets me is the people who take the piss, and that's not just those with kids, it extends to all aspects of life.
All the time a system can be exploited, then people will, whether it's long-term sick, childs support, immigration or aeven towing boats within a club.
There will always be people that put in more than they take out, the majority who break even and the people that take advantage.

r
Paul

chas49
10-01-06, 11:58 AM
There are good parents and bad parents.
.....
People are not all the same.

Stop ranting.

Your blood pressure will rise and make you ill if you keep being this angry. Then you won't be fit to dive any more.

wot she said!!!!

now go and have a :cup: :)

Kirstie
10-01-06, 12:08 PM
Kirstie and I have no kids, but we also have a pretty flexible lifestyle.
Were we to have children, then as much as possible we'd try to carry on as normal, so they sprogs'd fit in with us, but obviously it would involve far less disposable income and less flexibility about dive trips, holidays etc. etc.
Personally, I don't think that a wide parking space when I visit Tesco or Sainsbury would make up for that.

The flexibility of being able to take off for a weekend/week or go out whenever we feel like it is great, no babysitters or extra places to pay for, no worries about who to trust the kids with if we want to dive together, no rushing back for a baby sitter if I drink a bit too much and decide to take up hosts' on the offer of crashing on their sofa.
If we go away for a bank holiday and (work permitting) decide to stay an extra day or so, then that's fine.

I'd really have to think long and hard before giving that up, but if I/we did, that's be our choice.



Hmm, let me think.

Limitless freedom, disposable income to spend on meals out and diving, an uncurtailed social life and holidays whenever & wherever the fancy takes vs kids.

It's a toughie.

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 12:08 PM
Just because your wife and you have chosen your career paths and contain shift work, then along the line you shall be rostered to work Christmas, new year and Easter.... bit like all the other shift workers in the world.

Except Andy, the ones with kids! Our colleagues with childen have also chosen exactly the same careers with exactly the same commitment to shifts as we have - and yet they get to have every Christmas off. And I imagine it's repeated in every other profession that provides 365 day a year cover.

I appreciate the 'that's life' comment - your Dad seems to have done the decent thing and done his share. But it should be 'that's life' for everyone who choses to do work of this kind. Unfortunately (and particularly in my wife's profession of nursing) some parents seem to think it just doesn't apply to them and they have a right to be given preferential treatment. On my wife's last ward where she worked 14 years she got only one Christmas day off while many never worked a single one. That is out of order.

turbanator
10-01-06, 12:09 PM
Yep, decided , my plan on getting married late in life and having kids, was the best thing i ever did.

That would be our situation if anything happened in the kid department.
Unfortunatly, therein lies the big inconsistency in the way that we live today.

You were sorted financially, wanted and could afford to have kids, and were mature (well that may be stretching it :D) enough to deal with them.
You probably treat your kids like future adults rather than them being two small people that share the house with you.
The shame is that (without knowing how old your wife is), it's better for a woman to have kids at a younger age, not suggesting that all of us over 40's go out and get 18 y.o. girlfriends. Also if you'd had them younger they'd be able to take you to a pub before you start drinking 1/2s of mild :)

r
P

BJ
10-01-06, 12:10 PM
Its about time sombody told the truth about winging pereants.
The amount of times I have heard pepole say their lifes will not change when they have kids and the kids will fit in then expect others to make alowances and put themseles out.
Dont be so selfish kids need attentive perants and if you arnt prepaired to totaly change your life don't have them we dont want to hear about your hardships cos you have kids.
Some pepole are in touch with reality and dont have kids coz they dont want the responsability that goes with them.

You even have to teach your kids to spell!!!!

Wacker obviously had the benefits of no parents!

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 12:14 PM
Well being a dad is great. Would nt have it any other way. However...

1. Kids will change your life. Always makes me laugh when I see friends who say it won't then 2 months after the new baby are gibbering wrecks smelling of poo and nappy wipes.
2. Kids need interaction. This could be a whole rant by itself but I'll keep it short 'cos it makes me really sad. Nope- I've changed my mind- I'll rant on a bit in a seperate post.
3. Kids need boundaries
4. Kids need families- most of the kids I know who have problems come from a rotten background
5. Other people's kids are horrible
6. Kids need to know that manners are just a nice way of talking to people and not something that should be rammed down their throats.
7. Kids need faily meal times round a table and to know how to use a knife and fork (and no you don't hold a knife like a pen)
8. Kids need love and for you to tell them that

Woz - I wholeheartedly agree with all of this, probably because it reflects the way my own parents brought me up.


There are good parents and bad parents.
There are nice kids and shitty chavs.
There are people who don't take the piss and people who believe they are entitled to everything going.
There are narrow minded people and broad minded people.
Not everyone is the same.



Purple Vonny - I agree with everything you say too.


I choose not to have children. I respect those who have chosen to have them. I do not respect people who have children and take no responsibiity for bringing them up to show respect and consideration to others.

I have been discriminated against in the past when it came to dishing out Christmas Leave. Since then, and for many years now, I have chosen to take my holidays at other times and to work at Christmas. This year I was going to have the time in between off, but gave it up so someone else with children could spend time with her family. I enjoyed Christmas when I was a child because my family were all together - I wouldn't deprive someone else of that.

I also take my holidays outside of the School Holidays if I can - mainly because of the cost and the fact that in choosing not to have children I don't want to be dodging prams and listening to whingeing whilst I'm having my break. I know not all children are like this, thankfully there are still the likes of Woz and many others out there who are obviously great parents. I also respect the fact that kids are kids, and should have the freedom to run around and make noise and have fun - therefore I choose to take my holidays when they won't be around to disturb my peace and I arrange my leave carefully.

My cousin has three children - I am sure they have their moments, but in company they are well behaved, polite and considerate of others. My niece on the other hand constantly interrupts, acts up and in my opinion, is spoilt. I am sad to admit this as I love my niece dearly. I do not interfere in her upbringing as I am not her parent and have no right to comment on how others choose to bring up their children. This does not stop me thinking she is at times a brat, and I will admonish her for whingeing, interrupting etc if I feel it is necessary to do so.

I have been vilified and ridiculed for choosing not to have children - and by members of my own family. I have been called selfish. What could me more selfish than others expecting me to produce offspring just because they want me to? If I did have children I would expect to take full responsibility for looking after them and arranging childcare. It is unfair therefore of certain people to expect me to have them just so they can dote on them part time. A child is for life, not just for Saturday night grandparent babysitting!

In my twenties I got a bit broody but was so skint that I could not have afforded to bring a child into the world and give it the best start in life. Now I'm in my thirties I like my life and that fleeting maternal urge has long since disappeared. I am curious to know what a child of mine would be like. I think I'd be a good parent and give a child the love, encouragement and values my parents gave me, and for which I am eternally grateful. I thought about it seriously after my Dad died a few years ago - but the truth is, I'm just not curious enough.

nigelH
10-01-06, 12:15 PM
in all the posts I have made on YD I have never had a response like this, the greenies have been pouring in and have filled the page twice over alreadyThis has just got to be my excuse next time I really have a bad day here in the office and see something that annoys me in another place...

I'm not a grumpy old man either.

NotDeadYet
10-01-06, 12:18 PM
Because you choose to have kids why should you get the best parking spaces at the shopping centre, as though you had a disability? You've got a pram; they've got legs. You're both perfectly healthy. Why do you need to be nearer? If it's a bit of extra work, well that's what you've committed yourself to, isn't it?

I must admit I go out of my way to park in "family" spaces in the supermarket (no brats), I get a positively warm glow at being glared at for committing such a heinous crime. Sometimes I even straddle two spaces when I'm feeling particularly annoying. My mother walked 2 miles each way to the shops every day whilst dragging me, wind, rain and shine and carried at least two bags of shopping back and never moaned about it. What a bunch of lazy, soft gits we've seemed to have become. How come we live in one of the most advanced societies on the planet and think that having children (one of the most basic of life's functions) is such a hard thing to cope with.

Yes I drive a 4x4 :-)

aclivity
10-01-06, 12:18 PM
Deleted

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 12:23 PM
Bleat away, you supercilious 'child free' morons, I've done both, I know which is better. How many of you have seen both sides ... oh wait, right, NONE.



I object to being called a moron because I have chosen not to have children. I'm glad having children is right for you. I can't comment on which is better as I dont have them - but that doesn't make me a moron.

Lou
10-01-06, 12:24 PM
Deleted

Coward.

ANDY 64
10-01-06, 12:26 PM
Except Andy, the ones with kids! Our colleagues with childen have also chosen exactly the same careers with exactly the same commitment to shifts as we have - and yet they get to have every Christmas off. And I imagine it's repeated in every other profession that provides 365 day a year cover.

I see where your coming from , mate... and i would say that down to POOR man management, and think that it may just be a thing up your way or how your station is run, bet ya boss / roster planner is a women with 3 kids at school age :D

A couple of doors up from I have a fireman, he was on duty for X mas eve, christmas day, boxing day . Only the day shift , mind you , he has 2 nippers younger than mine.

I was on pager call for all of the christmas holidays. Lifeboat and diving , and in fact did try to get a charity dive gig planned.

Whislt out about , i did see lots of mates working that had families.





[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=#4b0082]I appreciate the 'that's life' comment - your Dad seems to have done the decent thing and done his share. But it should be 'that's life' for everyone who choses to do work of this kind. Unfortunately (and particularly in my wife's profession of nursing) some parents seem to think it just doesn't apply to them and they have a right to be given preferential treatment. On my wife's last ward where she worked 14 years she got only one Christmas day off while many never worked a single one. That is out of order.

I agree, my sister in law is a Staff nurse in our local big ITU, she is kiddy less and worked boxing day and all of new year as per her roster.

Jim Shaw
10-01-06, 12:28 PM
I have been vilified and ridiculed for choosing not to have children - and by members of my own family. I have been called selfish. What could me more selfish than others expecting me to produce offspring just because they want me to?
You are in no way selfish, you have probably put more hours of thought into whether to have a child or not, than most people who have had children.

I also choose not to have kids, I made a desision when I was 14, that If I did'nt have kids by the time I was 30 then I would never have any, mainly because my father was 45 when he had me, and my mother was 37, and although both parents were very good in all things practical and loving, there was very little " bonding " , fun times out and being able to talk to them as people, it was a very definite roles of parent and child, where as a lot of my friends who had younger parents, seemed to be " friends " with there parents.

When I was 26 my partner at the time had a miscarriage which affected my quite badly, ( I felt cheated ) , but I would never bring a child into the world, just because I can,
I would only have done it because I'd thought it all through and made sure that I could support it, care for it, for 18+ years ,without anyone else's help, or funding.


My wife's daughter ( 24 ) is Preganant just now, and it pains me, because I know that she's put no thought into being a parent, she can barely look after herself never mind a child, and the father seems to be a complete moron.

and guess who's going to have to be there to sort out this mess??? when it goes wrong ( and it will ) :sad:

so come March I'm going to be a step grandad, before ever being a parent

In general I think that the childless put just as much thought into being a parent and indeed more sometimes than parents

Vicky_scuba_chick
10-01-06, 12:28 PM
I object to being called a moron because I have chosen not to have children. I'm glad having children is right for you. I can't comment on which is better as I dont have them - but that doesn't make me a moron.

I agree. Just because chosing not to have children is the right thing for us, doesn't mean that we are morons. Would we not be more of a 'moron' if we brought children into this world totally unprepared and totally unready? I know of people who brought children into this world just because 'everybody else is doing it' and just so they can gain benefits such as housing and financial benefits.

i'd like to think that i am being sensible by thinking through what i perceive to be the best thing not only for myself, but for the sake of a child being brought into the world by someone who is totally unprepared, unready and a 'moron'.

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 12:31 PM
Hmm, let me think.

Limitless freedom, disposable income to spend on meals out and diving, an uncurtailed social life and holidays whenever & wherever the fancy takes vs kids.

It's a toughie.


It's not. You can have that and kids, just not at the same time that's all and you know what, it really makes you appreciate them both.
Mine are, near as damn it off hand, I have watched them grow, through downright dreadful times (the teenage years) to the good times, the hardship, mental and financial has brought my wife and I closer, that alone is worth the pain. On top of that we have produced, reared, nurtured and grown two fine adults, worth a Hell of a lot more than a couple of meals out.
My work colleagues have kids I now let them choose the Bank holidays before me, the half terms etc, its called give and take, no doubt at some time I may need some understanding (I have never taken a day off work in respect to my children's health/school play etc.) as my parents get old and need my/our help. What goes round comes round. OK you may not get Christmas off, you may not get thought of first when it comes to special leave, then again maybe you get called in first when there is some extra overtime available (miners strike ring any bells Mark). Maybe the selfish parents get a puncture on the way home, or burgled or whatever. Maybe they were just having a shitty day.

Life balances it out.

Matt

ahar
10-01-06, 12:31 PM
Haud yer wesht Mr Davies. Christmas is a time for kids and families to get together. Without kids, it's a lot easier to organise that time to get together than it is with them. Rejoice in your flexibility - parents are limited to the few days in December where they are expected to get their family together for their kids - you can do any time of the year you want!

Oh, by the way, my Dad was a copper and had to work a shift (usually lates or nights) almost every Christmas.

JAG
10-01-06, 12:44 PM
It's not. You can have that and kids, just not at the same time that's all and you know what, it really makes you appreciate them both.
Mine are, near as damn it off hand, I have watched them grow, through downright dreadful times (the teenage years) to the good times, the hardship, mental and financial has brought my wife and I closer, that alone is worth the pain. On top of that we have produced, reared, nurtured and grown two fine adults, worth a Hell of a lot more than a couple of meals out.
My work colleagues have kids I now let them choose the Bank holidays before me, the half terms etc, its called give and take, no doubt at some time I may need some understanding (I have never taken a day off work in respect to my children's health/school play etc.) as my parents get old and need my/our help. What goes round comes round. OK you may not get Christmas off, you may not get thought of first when it comes to special leave, then again maybe you get called in first when there is some extra overtime available (miners strike ring any bells Mark). Maybe the selfish parents get a puncture on the way home, or burgled or whatever. Maybe they were just having a shitty day.

Life balances it out.

Matt
Well said Matt.

Conor
10-01-06, 12:44 PM
Oh what a fun rant, From my avatar I guess you can guess what side of the fence I am on, although to be honest I seem to have missed all these benefits some of you claim I get.

I see some of your points but lets ask you again when you retire or get ill in your old age and rely on the incomes of a younger generation to bail you out.

I see your points and respect them, in fact I'd go as far as to say its a shame your parents didn't feel the same way :p :D

chrisch
10-01-06, 12:50 PM
How sad this is degenerating into a childless vs. "with sprog" agrument. Sad too that some folks cannot even do this without rude generalisations that demonstrate ignorance of the worst kind.

Chris

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 12:55 PM
I see some of your points but lets ask you again when you retire or get ill in your old age and rely on the incomes of a younger generation to bail you out.

I see your points and respect them, in fact I'd go as far as to say its a shame your parents didn't feel the same way :p :D

I'm paying now for my own pension, thankyou. I expect to support myself in my retirement.

Having children was not a financially viable option in my twenties as I was for many years the sole breadwinner while my husband struggled with a business and the after effects of its failure.

I have worked hard - as have we both - to drag us out of the shi*te that left us in. Now I'm 38 I'm just not into having children - I'm only just starting to enjoy my life without waking up in the night worrying about how I can pay my own bills, never mind feed another mouth.

I am glad my parents had me, my brother and sister. Having been told they would be childless for many years they saw their children as a blessing. They gave us love and support and respect for others.

I don't have children, but I do give up some of my spare time to work for the commumity I live in. Just cos I don't have kids I'm not a complete tw*t.

Conor
10-01-06, 12:55 PM
How sad this is degenerating into a childless vs. "with sprog" agrument. Sad too that some folks cannot even do this without rude generalisations that demonstrate ignorance of the worst kind.

Chris

Where did that happen then?

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 12:59 PM
Where did that happen then?

Yeah, I'm just having a lively debate cos it's more interesting than the nice strategy paper I'm supposed to be working on! ;)

Conor
10-01-06, 01:00 PM
I'm paying now for my own pension, thankyou. I expect to support myself in my retirement.

Having children was not a financially viable option in my twenties as I was for many years the sole breadwinner while my husband struggled with a business and the after effects of its failure.

I have worked hard - as have we both - to drag us out of the shi*te that left us in. Now I'm 38 I'm just not into having children - I'm only just starting to enjoy my life without waking up in the night worrying about how I can pay my own bills, never mind feed another mouth.

I am glad my parents had me, my brother and sister. Having been told they would be childless for many years they saw their children as a blessing. They gave us love and support and respect for others.

I don't have children, but I do give up some of my spare time to work for the commumity I live in. Just cos I don't have kids I'm not a complete tw*t.

I'm not calling anyone a twat...and my comments are intended as tongue in cheek...in the manner I'm assuming most comments are intended in this thread.

I have no problem with people chosing not to have kids, I just have an issue with thse that slag off those that do.

Realistically though, very few of us will really have the size of pension that will see us through our old age. And the services that we will rely on have to be provided by the younger generation (when you are 100 what age will your doctor be?). We, as a civilisation, need the next generation, and regardless of whether we breed ourselves we will benefit from them.

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 01:02 PM
Christmas is a time for kids and families to get together.

I've had Christmas with my family just once in 18 years and never with my wife's family. So, Christmas is a time for everybody else's families, not ours?

To be honest it has little to do with me being in the police - there's no real flexibility in the shift pattern. Some get to have the day off, but not many, and frankly I don't have too many colleagues with kids anyway. It's my wife who constantly gets the shitty end of the stick because the NHS doesn't run fixed shift patterns but has a self-rostering system. As Andy says, it is down to crap management, but Deb's managers have always had kids and wanted the day off themselves so shafted us!

Matt, I'm not sure there is a balance. As the original poster pointed out, those people who claim to be unable to do the unpleasant stuff because of their child commitments never seem to have any trouble when there's good money to be earned! I've never seen any distinction made favouring officers without kids when additional duties have been allocated.

Of course there are benefits to not having children, which is the reason we have chosen not to. But rather than specific benefits it is merely the lack of the hinderances associated with having children. I get nothing that you pay for.

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 01:04 PM
Where did that happen then?

The below item I believe:

Originally Posted by aclivity

Bleat away, you supercilious 'child free' morons, I've done both, I know which is better. How many of you have seen both sides ... oh wait, right, NONE.

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 01:14 PM
I'm not calling anyone a twat...and my comments are intended as tongue in cheek...in the manner I'm assuming most comments are intended in this thread.



Conor - I know you're not calling me that, and I do take your comments as they were meant! :teeth:

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 01:22 PM
I've had Christmas with my family just once in 18 years and never with my wife's family. So, Christmas is a time for everybody else's families, not ours?

To be honest it has little to do with me being in the police - there's no real flexibility in the shift pattern. Some get to have the day off, but not many, and frankly I don't have too many colleagues with kids anyway. It's my wife who constantly gets the shitty end of the stick because the NHS doesn't run fixed shift patterns but has a self-rostering system. As Andy says, it is down to crap management, but Deb's managers have always had kids and wanted the day off themselves so shafted us!

Matt, I'm not sure there is a balance. As the original poster pointed out, those people who claim to be unable to do the unpleasant stuff because of their child commitments never seem to have any trouble when there's good money to be earned! I've never seen any distinction made favouring officers without kids when additional duties have been allocated.

Of course there are benefits to not having children, which is the reason we have chosen not to. But rather than specific benefits it is merely the lack of the hinderances associated with having children. I get nothing that you pay for.


Mark I'm not hammering anyone here but just as people should think long and hard about having kids surely also they should think long and hard as to what career they want and if having time at home with family etc over Christmas is important dont go into a job that wont give you that flexibility. That may be a bit glib as I am sure you or your wife probably didnt realise that when you 'signed up', much in the same way that when people have kids they dont realise the full implication. As Andy said "That's LIfe" and we all have to deal with certian things in our own way. For my part I could tell you all about why I cant eat certain foods and sing the "why me" song, others on here could also I am sure make a good claim for shit that has been dealt to them but again its life, its what we have to deal with. You know the grass is always greener on the other side, then reality bites.

Anyway Christmas is past now so you wont have that to deal with for 11months, could all be dead by then mate! :)

Matt

Kirstie
10-01-06, 01:26 PM
It's not. You can have that and kids, just not at the same time that's all and you know what, it really makes you appreciate them both.
Mine are, near as damn it off hand, I have watched them grow, through downright dreadful times (the teenage years) to the good times, the hardship, mental and financial has brought my wife and I closer, that alone is worth the pain. On top of that we have produced, reared, nurtured and grown two fine adults, worth a Hell of a lot more than a couple of meals out.
My work colleagues have kids I now let them choose the Bank holidays before me, the half terms etc, its called give and take, no doubt at some time I may need some understanding (I have never taken a day off work in respect to my children's health/school play etc.) as my parents get old and need my/our help. What goes round comes round. OK you may not get Christmas off, you may not get thought of first when it comes to special leave, then again maybe you get called in first when there is some extra overtime available (miners strike ring any bells Mark). Maybe the selfish parents get a puncture on the way home, or burgled or whatever. Maybe they were just having a shitty day.

Life balances it out.

Matt

You're absolutely right. However, as I'm 40 this year, it's a bit late for me to enjoy the same good experience that you've obviously had by getting on with it a bit earlier!

On a related subject. I'm sure everyone on this forum who's got kids loves them dearly, wouldn't be without them blah blah etc etc.

Being perfectly honest now, how many of you, if you could have your time over again, would decide against having children? I had a conversation with my mother once and she said that, getting married in the 1960's, it was taken for granted that you'd have kids, so she did (but only the one). She also said that, if she'd grown up and got married in a different era (now, for example) she wouldn't have had children, much as she obviously adores me, her only chick and child.

BJ
10-01-06, 01:34 PM
If you spend a lot of time on internet forums it probably means:
1) You are a kid
2) You have no kids
3) Your kids have long gone and you are sad and lonely
4) You are being paid to moinitor forums
5) You are all or some of the above

In each case you cannot be considered to be normal!

Just got back from the best holiday ever. It was on a liveaboard in the Maldives with my missus and kids (6 & 9) and a couple of friends with their two! My eldest son is 30. Had the vasectomy last November.

ANDY 64
10-01-06, 01:39 PM
Mark I'm not hammering anyone here but just as people should think long and hard about having kids surely also they should think long and hard as to what career they want and if having time at home with family etc over Christmas is important dont go into a job that wont give you that flexibility. That may be a bit glib as I am sure you or your wife probably didnt realise that when you 'signed up', much in the same way that when people have kids they dont realise the full implication. As Andy said "That's LIfe" and we all have to deal with certian things in our own way. For my part I could tell you all about why I cant eat certain foods and sing the "why me" song, others on here could also I am sure make a good claim for shit that has been dealt to them but again its life, its what we have to deal with. You know the grass is always greener on the other side, then reality bites.


I for one thought long and hard about planning my life and having the kiddies, I was VERY lucky in having 2 healthy boys.

However, like Matt has stressed, i do find mine a worry and head ache at times.

Are they going to leave school and do the jobs they want ?
Is my job going to affect thier lives in a big way ?

One of the hardest things since having them was chatting to them on Friday evening telling them that the Taurus is up for sale and telling them that they will also be without a boat for a while, and the tears from them was heart wrenching and i was pyshically sick in seeing them so upset.
I became a very BAD dad indeed for a while, but they have bounced back in Jo and I letting them look at other boats etc etc and letting them come forward with ideas.
But at the end of the day, while divers are diving from our boat and spending thier hard earnt dosh, it's my boy's future i'm thinking of, as no way are they going on the dole and letting the tax payer and state support them.



Anyway Christmas is past now so you wont have that to deal with for 11months, could all be dead by then mate! :)

And on that note, now is the time to place in 2 weeks annual leave, so you can spend a few days each with each others family. OR better still, work on the ' man flu ' sickie, which lots get paid for SICK LEAVE.... which poor old charter skippers which are self employed don't get :sad:

ANDY 64
10-01-06, 01:40 PM
If you spend a lot of time on internet forums it probably means:
1) You are a kid
2) You have no kids
3) Your kids have long gone and you are sad and lonely
4) You are being paid to moinitor forums
5) You are all or some of the above

In each case you cannot be considered to be normal!

Just got back from the best holiday ever. It was on a liveaboard in the Maldives with my missus and kids (6 & 9) and a couple of friends with their two! My eldest son is 30. Had the vasectomy last November.


:D

Some green inbound for that ,,, i'm in fits here

chrisch
10-01-06, 01:53 PM
The below item I believe:

Originally Posted by

In fairness to Andy he deleted this three minutes after posting.

Chris

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 01:54 PM
Being perfectly honest now, how many of you, if you could have your time over again, would decide against having children? I had a conversation with my mother once and she said that, getting married in the 1960's, it was taken for granted that you'd have kids, so she did (but only the one). She also said that, if she'd grown up and got married in a different era (now, for example) she wouldn't have had children, much as she obviously adores me, her only chick and child.

You know I'm guessing she's saying that cos she has had you, it makes it very easy to say "I wouldnt do that again".
Some of our friends have no children, it is of course everyone's right to want or not want to be a parent and God willing they get to see that decision through (either way, accidents do happen you know, not I hasten to add in my case :) but I cant honestly say what my response would be to the question.

Matt

Mark Chase
10-01-06, 02:00 PM
Being perfectly honest now, how many of you, if you could have your time over again, would decide against having children? .


I wish I had had them earlier. I was 34. I would prefer them to be grown up by the time I was 45 but thats not going to happen. I wont finish paying for university till I am in my mid 50s so I cant retire abroad till then which is a bit of a pisser. We have looked at moving now before school gets too serious but our two attempts have failed. One because were too old :(

We have a friend who has had a single child and regretted it and we have a friend who is desperately trying to have children. I have family who have chosen to not have children but seeing as she is on her third marriage i think thats a good plan.

Ironically the couple who have chosen not to have children both seem to work all the time. They have a beautiful house there never in and they have no particular hobbies but they do have at least two fabulous holidays a year doing stuff like walking through Vietnam which is great and couldn't be done with children. But I don't see there life as any more free than my own.

However we are not like other families in that we see no need to be with our kids 24/7 so we go out and have fun together. Other people say they couldn't do this or cant afford it but the truth is they wouldn't tolerate having a live in nanny. Most of our friends could afford it if they wanted to. We had a nanny many years before we bought our first ever new car. Also Ling goes away with friends and so do I (diving of course). This has always been the way and the kids don't know any different.

Life is what you make it and it doesn't have to stop just because you have kids.

ATB

Mark Chase

Keith L
10-01-06, 02:02 PM
If you spend a lot of time on internet forums it probably means:
1) You are a kid
2) You have no kids
3) Your kids have long gone and you are sad and lonely
4) You are being paid to moinitor forums
5) You are all or some of the aboveThat is exactly the type of sanctimonious holier-than-thou garbage that one can expect whenever it is mentioned that you are child free. As expected I've had all of the insults, all of the usual excuses have been trotted out as justification, but still people are not getting the point :rolleyes:

I personally do not like children, but I fully respect and appreciate that there are many people who do and I do appreciate the arguments for having them. But just as I respect your rights and your choices then you should respect mine, do not inflict your brats and the consequences of your actions on me, sort yourselves out.

For the record - although I am personally child free I do have a step son who I took responsibility for when he was a teenager. So don't whinge at me how difficult it is, I know! But I took on that responsibility with the full knowledge and understanding of what I was doing and I accepted the consequences. I didn't whinge about it, I didn't expect or receive any special treatment, I didn't inflict it on everyone else and expect them to sort it out for me.

It's called taking responsibility for your own actions. Some people should try it, or better still do it as a family and teach it to your kids.

K :D

turbanator
10-01-06, 02:05 PM
In fairness to Andy he deleted this three minutes after posting.

Chris

Which is why I deleted and equally 'robust' reply. :)

In truth, few of us know the others that well.

My decision whether or not to have kids was not nearly as cut and dried as choosing 'Dive' or 'Diver' in WHS.

Also anything that I post on the subject will be coloured by personal circumstances, as will most of the other posters.

Let's accept that some of us have kids and some don't, there are advantages/disadvantages to both. I can't say how much of my monthly tax bill goes to, for instance, paying for a lollipop lady outside of the local school and I don't really care, (actually, thinking about it, I haven't seen one there in years and I think that there should be!).

r
P

gunsentry
10-01-06, 02:07 PM
That is exactly the type of sanctimonious holier-than-thou garbage that one can expect whenever it is mentioned that you are child free. As expected I've had all of the insults, all of the usual excuses have been trotted out as justification, but still people are not getting the point :rolleyes:

I personally do not like children, but I fully respect and appreciate that there are many people who do and I do appreciate the arguments for having them. But just as I respect your rights and your choices then you should respect mine, do not inflict your brats and the consequences of your actions on me, sort yourselves out.

For the record - although I am personally child free I do have a step son who I took responsibility for when he was a teenager. So don't whinge at me how difficult it is, I know! But I took on that responsibility with the full knowledge and understanding of what I was doing and I accepted the consequences. I didn't whinge about it, I didn't expect or receive any special treatment, I didn't inflict it on everyone else and expect them to sort it out for me.

It's called taking responsibility for your own actions. Some people should try it, or better still do it as a family and teach it to your kids.

K :D


My kids are well behaved and respectful very well adjusted and doing extremely well in education and their part time jobs. :)

Seems from your rant that you have had the other end of the this and have and or are still being exposed to the opposite of this.

Kirstie
10-01-06, 02:08 PM
I wish I had had them earlier. I was 34. I would prefer them to be grown up by the time I was 45 but thats not going to happen.


The problem Paul and I have is that I'll be 40 this year and, while it's technically not too old to have kids, we'd have to think very carefully about it. We were both previously in relationships where having children wasn't possible for various reasons but now, suddenly, it's a possibility and it's a bit scarey!

The decision we've come to is, we aren't planning for them but if it happens, well, it's another person to carry the dive kit!

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 02:12 PM
I personally do not like children.

For the record - although I am personally child free I do have a step son who I took responsibility for when he was a teenager.

It's called taking responsibility for your own actions. Some people should try it, or better still do it as a family and teach it to your kids.

K :D

On the one hand you say you dont like children, then on the other you have a stepson. I find that a difficult position to reconcile, especially as I had a stepfather and I'm guessing he too didnt like children, given that he left his wife with three to marry my widowed mother. If you marry or live with someone that has a child you cannot claim to be "child-free". The partner and the child come as a single package, you marry both I'm afraid.

I think I'll stop now before I write something I later regret.

Matt

BSH
10-01-06, 02:33 PM
Haven't read all this :)

I don't mind kids but I really couldn't eat a whole one ;)

Lou
10-01-06, 02:35 PM
Haven't read all this :)

I don't mind kids but I really couldn't eat a whole one ;)

But at least on the Atkin's you would be allowed to if you wanted to :D

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 02:35 PM
Haven't read all this :)

I don't mind kids but I really couldn't eat a whole one ;)

PMPL - tried to green you but looks like the rest of the board got there first!

Kirstie
10-01-06, 02:36 PM
But at least on the Atkin's you would be allowed to if you wanted to :D

Does a satchel count as carbohydrates, though?

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 02:38 PM
Does a satchel count as carbohydrates, though?

Nothing like a bit of leather to chew on all day! Good for the teeth too.

Jim Shaw
10-01-06, 02:40 PM
Haven't read all this :)

I don't mind kids but I really couldn't eat a whole one ;)Lol, brilliant this was all starting to get very serious :thumbsup:

Jim Shaw
10-01-06, 02:41 PM
Nothing like a bit of leather to chew on all day! Good for the teeth too.spoken like a dominatix :D :D

Kirstie
10-01-06, 02:41 PM
Nothing like a bit of leather to chew on all day! Good for the teeth too.


I agree...satchels, restraints...

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 02:43 PM
spoken like a dominatix :D :D

HWMBO in name only may want to comment on this....:teeth:

Steve Summers
10-01-06, 02:44 PM
FTR I have no problem with anyone deciding to remain childless, I can't think of anything worse than to bring a child into the world as an accessory.

AFAIC good parents, bad parents, good kids and bad kids have always been around why expect today to be any different.

On a personal note I thought I knew what love, worry, pride and fear was until mine were born and I realised that I had not even come close to the full extent of those emotions.

In short it is a trade off being a Parent but it has given me far more than it has taken away and it's the most worthwhile thing I have ever done, and when I look at at my kids, I realise that of all the things I have done in my life they and the fine young people they are becoming are my crowning achievement.

Off to scare the crap out of them by giving them an unprovoked hug now :cry:

Safe diving,
Steve

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 02:44 PM
I agree...satchels, restraints...

Have you been looking in my wardrobe again?

Kirstie
10-01-06, 02:47 PM
Have you been looking in my wardrobe again?


no, no....

just thinking about last weekend.....

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 02:49 PM
no, no....

just thinking about last weekend.....

sssh... I haven't told him. He'd get too excited.

chrisch
10-01-06, 02:49 PM
The problem Paul and I have is that I'll be 40 this year and, while it's technically not too old to have kids, we'd have to think very carefully about it.

My Dad is 40 years older than me. From the kids' viewpoint (though I'm now older than you!) don't do it.

As to people that heve kids older than 50 I think they are very selfish...

Chris

nigelH
10-01-06, 02:57 PM
As to people that heve kids older than 50 I think they are very selfish...I'm older than 50 and I've still got both of mine....

Although the temptation to shoot one of them has been strong at times...

No not the one that dives. He carrys my kit too often.

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 02:59 PM
My Dad is 40 years older than me. From the kids' viewpoint (though I'm now older than you!) don't do it.

As to people that heve kids older than 50 I think they are very selfish...

Chris

The age difference and generally held views are just so different. Perhaps his dad is an odd case (I believe this is true) but his view of the world seems to have stopped some 20+ years ago and he cannot understand what's happening now and gives bizarre advice on stuff he knows nothing about. Mind my dads 15 years younger than him and gives equally weird Daily Mail ramblings.

turbanator
10-01-06, 03:01 PM
As to people that heve kids older than 50 I think they are very selfish...

Chris

I though they started at 0 ;)

Seriously tho' I couldn't cope without my parents now that I'm in my 40's, the possibility that I could be be leaving my kids while they're in their 20's is not nice.

Mind you, I suppose they'd be young enough to enjoy any money we left them :)

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 03:04 PM
Mind you, I suppose they'd be young enough to enjoy any money we left them :)

Oh no they won't (in pantomime stylee) as you'll have given it all to the nursing home!

Kirstie
10-01-06, 03:06 PM
My Dad is 40 years older than me. From the kids' viewpoint (though I'm now older than you!) don't do it.

As to people that heve kids older than 50 I think they are very selfish...

Chris

Much as I'd like to think having a baby now wouldn't be a problem and that we'd deal with it if it happened 'by accident', I really don't know how well we'd adapt. It's true that one does become set in one's ways, and we're used to being a bit selfish and doing as we please. It would be hard to give that up or, at least, to have it restricted, although plenty of people do just that and are happy to do so.

I don't know. It all just seems too grown-up for me :)

BSH
10-01-06, 03:07 PM
PMPL - tried to green you but looks like the rest of the board got there first!

No just looked :) so if you would like to try again :hifive:

Kirstie
10-01-06, 03:07 PM
I though they started at 0 ;)

Seriously tho' I couldn't cope without my parents now that I'm in my 40's, the possibility that I could be be leaving my kids while they're in their 20's is not nice.

Mind you, I suppose they'd be young enough to enjoy any money we left them :)


What money is this?

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 03:11 PM
What money is this?

Right on hon! You get stuck in to Turbie's wallet now! Think of all the suede handbags you could buy with with what it costs to raise a child! Mind you, the extra Family Allowance could be put to excellent use increasing your shoe collection...........;)

Kirstie
10-01-06, 03:13 PM
Right on hon! You get stuck in to Turbie's wallet now! Think of all the suede handbags you could buy with with what it costs to raise a child! Mind you, the extra Family Allowance could be put to excellent use increasing your shoe collection...........;)


LOL - Family Allowance on shoes and bags, plus a slave to carry the dive kit and rinse my Shewee! And parking right outside the supermarket!

NOW I see the attraction of having kiddiewinks :)

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 03:13 PM
Right on hon! You get stuck in to Turbie's wallet now! Think of all the suede handbags you could buy with with what it costs to raise a child! Mind you, the extra Family Allowance could be put to excellent use increasing your shoe collection...........;)

Now you are a very sensible being.

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 03:14 PM
My Dad is 40 years older than me. From the kids' viewpoint (though I'm now older than you!) don't do it.

As to people that heve kids older than 50 I think they are very selfish...

Chris

My Dad was 43 yrs older than me, he died when I was 10 (41 yrs ago) I'm glad he and my Mum decided to have me :)

I adored him, I dont think he was selfish in having me. My Mum was 13yrs his junior though so I had one young(ish) parent (until recently)

Matt

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 03:14 PM
LOL - Family Allowance on shoes and bags, plus a slave to carry the dive kit and rinse my Shewee! And parking right outside the supermarket!

NOW I see the attraction of having kiddiewinks :)

Hmm, now you put it like that my resolve is weakening..........

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 03:15 PM
LOL - Family Allowance on shoes and bags, plus a slave to carry the dive kit and rinse my Shewee! And parking right outside the supermarket!

NOW I see the attraction of having kiddiewinks :)

You just have SO much to learn!!!! ;)

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 03:17 PM
My Dad was 43 yrs older than me, he died when I was 10 (41 yrs ago) I'm glad he and my Mum decided to have me :)

I adored him, I dont think he was selfish in having me. My Mum was 13yrs his junior though so I had one young(ish) parent (until recently)

Matt

Lovely post Matt, have a greenie.

turbanator
10-01-06, 03:18 PM
LOL - Family Allowance on shoes and bags, plus a slave to carry the dive kit and rinse my Shewee! And parking right outside the supermarket!

NOW I see the attraction of having kiddiewinks :)
And you can lock 'em in the car to protect your kit if you have to use the top car park at Stoney. :)

turbanator
10-01-06, 03:19 PM
Hmm, now you put it like that my resolve is weakening..........

Mebbe you and Kirstie could share one :).

Kirstie
10-01-06, 03:19 PM
You just have SO much to learn!!!! ;)


You're probably right. In the meantime, Paul and I will just keep on practising for them! :D

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 03:20 PM
Mebbe you and Kirstie could share one :).

We'd neet to have twins so there'd be no arguments about kit carrying.

Kirstie
10-01-06, 03:21 PM
We'd neet to have twins so there'd be no arguments about kit carrying.


Or buy it a big trolley

chrisch
10-01-06, 03:24 PM
I'm sorry your Dad died when you were young Matt. And I'm pleased to be here too... (and I'm pleased you are here as well mate!)

Still he wasn't over 50 so I stick by my post.

My Mum died at 69 from smoking induced lung cancer and it cut my Dad up bad. I'm not sure he would be the miserable old git he is today if she were still alive :p

I just feel that such a big gap in your teenage years is unhelpful.

You didn't have that as your Dad had gone.

Just a view from behind my eyes.

Chris

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 03:25 PM
We'd neet to have twins so there'd be no arguments about kit carrying.

Then they would argue, listen this is also a very long term and expensive (money down the plug hole) type investment. My 18yr old still thinks I should carry his kit, have you ever seen those huge juvenile birds that are bigger than their parents still demanding food??? Yes, well you get the picture then. :)

Matt

Freeflow
10-01-06, 03:26 PM
Yep, I hate kids too.

"Children are allergic to me. If they get too close they come out in bruises"

Anthony Alouitious Hancock.

Kirstie
10-01-06, 03:27 PM
Then they would argue, listen this is also a very long term and expensive (money down the plug hole) type investment. My 18yr old still thinks I should carry his kit, have you ever seen those huge juvenile birds that are bigger than their parents still demanding food??? Yes, well you get the picture then. :)

Matt


Cheaper to get a trolley then, is what you're basically saying.

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 03:30 PM
I'm sorry your Dad died when you were young Matt. And I'm pleased to be here too... (and I'm pleased you are here as well mate!)

Still he wasn't over 50 so I stick by my post.

My Mum died at 69 from smoking induced lung cancer and it cut my Dad up bad. I'm not sure he would be the miserable old git he is today if she were still alive :p

I just feel that such a big gap in your teenage years is unhelpful.

You didn't have that as your Dad had gone.

Just a view from behind my eyes.

Chris

Chris I'm sure you are right, mine would probably have been a right old misery. My Mum re-married when I was 13 (he was 12yrs older than her and I doubt my age helped) he was a right PIA (hence my biased and jaundiced opinion about step parents and lone parents re-marrying). Having a Father die young also makes it very difficult as you have no role model to work on.

Nah ,everyone should have kids at 18 married or not, hang on I think that's already in force.

Matt

Dizzydiver
10-01-06, 03:31 PM
Nah ,everyone should have kids at 18 married or not, hang on I think that's already in force.

Matt

You never said you were in charge of Tony Blairs policies.

turbanator
10-01-06, 03:31 PM
, have you ever seen those huge juvenile birds that are bigger than their parents still demanding food??? Yes, well you get the picture then. :)

Matt

Hmmm, that's Cuckoos ;)

Buoyant Babe
10-01-06, 03:33 PM
Cheaper to get a trolley then, is what you're basically saying.

Yes, and start them young.....

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2/helen2525/Trolley.jpg

Mark Chase
10-01-06, 03:40 PM
The problem Paul and I have is that I'll be 40 this year and, while it's technically not too old to have kids, we'd have to think very carefully about it. We were both previously in relationships where having children wasn't possible for various reasons but now, suddenly, it's a possibility and it's a bit scarey!

The decision we've come to is, we aren't planning for them but if it happens, well, it's another person to carry the dive kit!


I consider my self very lucky to have managed to find a stable relationship before I was too old to have kids. I dont think i would have had children if this had not hapened before I hit 40 I realy realy wouldent want to be 50 with a 10 year old.

Lings views on what sort of controception we use have changed since having two little serprises so its unlikley to hapen again but if it did I would be devistated. Its a decision I pray I never have to make.

ATB

Mark Chase

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 03:43 PM
Lings views on what sort of controception we use have changed since having two little serprises

Mark Chase

Keep your thumbs clear!

Matt

chrisch
10-01-06, 03:46 PM
Yes, and start them young.....

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2/helen2525/Trolley.jpg

That's a nice start do you have a bigger one?

Chris

Kirstie
10-01-06, 03:49 PM
I consider my self very lucky to have managed to find a stable relationship before I was too old to have kids. I dont think i would have had children if this had not hapened before I hit 40 I realy realy wouldent want to be 50 with a 10 year old.

Lings views on what sort of controception we use have changed since having two little serprises so its unlikley to hapen again but if it did I would be devistated. Its a decision I pray I never have to make.

ATB

Mark Chase


You are very lucky, as you say. I just wish Paul and I had met 20 years ago.

To be honest, part of me hopes we never find ourselves with a little 'surprise'. However, every now and then I do find myself imagining what it would be like if Paul and I had a baby, and I have fluffy, 'wouldn't it be fun' thoughts. But the reality is that it would be a huge lifestyle change. We've only been together a year (we only see each other at weekends at the moment), and we're busily planning all the travelling/dive trips we're going to do over the next year or so, which is great fun. I know you can still do all those things with a baby, but it does make it a little more difficult.

turbanator
10-01-06, 03:49 PM
Lings views on what sort of controception we use have changed since having two little serprises so its unlikley to hapen again but if it did I would be devistated. Its a decision I pray I never have to make.


I dunno how I'd feel, I suppose we tend to try to look at it from the child's POV through our older eyes.

I think it was Matt that said his father was older, but he's glad that his parents had him, no matter what life threw at him and at what age he was when it happened.

Maybe having kids when you are older is a bit like that, as long as you can give them a good start, which you probably can when you a little later in life as you'll hopefully be financially secure and love them, then you'll always just be Mum and Dad regardless of age.

Parents are parents and kids are kids, worse still, they bcome teenagers at that age they argue with their parents whatever the age difference, even if there was some way the parents and kids could be teenagers together. :)

r
P

Wacker
10-01-06, 03:49 PM
I can't see why some of you are taking this to heart the issue is not children or pearents but it's all about bad pereanting!
Thous of you who are on the defencive should ask yourselfs why?

Woz
10-01-06, 03:51 PM
You are very lucky, as you say. I just wish Paul and I had met 20 years ago.

To be honest, part of me hopes we never find ourselves with a little 'surprise'. However, every now and then I do find myself imagining what it would be like if Paul and I had a baby, and I have fluffy, 'wouldn't it be fun' thoughts. But the reality is that it would be a huge lifestyle change. We've only been together a year (we only see each other at weekends at the moment), and we're busily planning all the travelling/dive trips we're going to do over the next year or so, which is great fun. I know you can still do all those things with a baby, but it does make it a little more difficult.Hahahahahahaha me and Missus Woz have a 9 yr old daughter and met 10 years ago.

Within 12 months of meeting we had:

Moved house
Changed jobs
Had a baby
Nursed me through a bad motorbike crash

Well we thought it would be a good idea to get life's most stressful things over and done with all in one go.

Kirstie
10-01-06, 03:54 PM
Hahahahahahaha me and Missus Woz have a 9 yr old daughter and met 10 years ago.

Within 12 months of meeting we had:

Moved house
Changed jobs
Had a baby
Nursed me through a bad motorbike crash

Well we thought it would be a good idea to get life's most stressful things over and done with all in one go.

Yeah, well, you're just insane. :) We've got better things to do than be changing nappies at this early stage in our relationship!

turbanator
10-01-06, 03:55 PM
I can't see why some of you are taking this to heart the issue is not children or pearents but it's all about bad pereanting!
Thous of you who are on the defencive should ask yourselfs why?

Yeah, but most people only get one go, and that's with no practice.
I imagine every one at some point says, "If I had a kid, I'd not treat it like my parents treated me.", then years later there that moment where your telling them off and you think, "Christ, I sound just like MY dad."

It's only really people in JB's position, with a big gap between kids that can apply any lessons learnt 1st time around.

nigelH
10-01-06, 03:55 PM
I realy realy wouldent want to be 50 with a 10 year old.It's called grandchildren.

All the fun and, when they begin to get a bit tiresome, you can give them back.

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 03:56 PM
Yeah, well, you're just insane. :) We've got better things to do than be changing nappies at this early stage in our relationship!

Give it time, you dont do Deco yet :)

turbanator
10-01-06, 03:58 PM
Well we thought it would be a good idea to get life's most stressful things over and done with all in one go.

Muahahaha, I make that 4 years to go, then Mini-Woz hits her teens.
You'll look back on the other stuff as mere hiccups :)

turbanator
10-01-06, 04:00 PM
Give it time, you dont do Deco yet :)

The amount I've done, I may be a jaffa now anyway :)

BJ
10-01-06, 04:10 PM
Why have children?
My eldest son answers his phone when I call with the words: Mac Support!
My youngest daughter was a coil-baby who did a lot of 50m deco-diving before she was born but is very glad we did not have her terminated. I am 53 years older than her. If you've got any argument with that I am prepared to go three rounds with you.
Am I selfish? Yes, I am. But not as selfish as you. If you do not procreate, what is the point of being on the planet? What great work are you doing that will improve the lot of mankind? Move over and make some room! The ground can do with the fertiliser.

Kirstie
10-01-06, 04:16 PM
My eldest son answers his phone when I call with the words: Mac Support!
My youngest daughter was a coil-baby who did a lot of 50m deco-diving before she was born but is very glad we did not have her terminated. I am 53 years older than her. If you've got any argument with that I am prepared to go three rounds with you.
Am I selfish? Yes, I am. But not as selfish as you. If you do not procreate, what is the point of being on the planet? What great work are you doing that will improve the lot of mankind? Move over and make some room! The ground can do with the fertiliser.


See that's the other thing. What would we do about my diving if I found out I was pregnant, given that we haven't planned babies? Do I stop as soon as I know? What if I don't know until nearer the time and have been diving in the meantime? Do I carry on diving anyway, and live with the consequences if anything happens?

turbanator
10-01-06, 04:16 PM
My eldest son answers his phone when I call with the words: Mac Support!

A curious choice of name!! ;)

That said, I dialled a '9' from home Saturday.

turbanator
10-01-06, 04:17 PM
See that's the other thing. What would we do about my diving if I found out I was pregnant, given that we haven't planned babies? Do I stop as soon as I know? What if I don't know until nearer the time and have been diving in the meantime? Do I carry on diving anyway, and live with the consequences if anything happens?

You stop as soon as we know and I'll book on twice as many trips :D :D

Kirstie
10-01-06, 04:19 PM
You stop as soon as we know and I'll book on twice as many trips :D :D


Yeah, that'd be right. In your dreams, mate!

MATTBIN
10-01-06, 04:25 PM
See that's the other thing. What would we do about my diving if I found out I was pregnant, given that we haven't planned babies? Do I stop as soon as I know? What if I don't know until nearer the time and have been diving in the meantime? Do I carry on diving anyway, and live with the consequences if anything happens?

Seriously, you stop as soon as you know. Now I know I'm no expert but from past experience you'll get a sort of inkling about a two days after certain things that should have happened dont happen. Then nip up Boots get a pregnancy kit and hey presto - information as required.
Then get ready to wave Turby off on his dive trips, scream a lot and put it down to your hormones.
:)
Matt

JAG
10-01-06, 04:28 PM
Thous of you who are on the defencive should ask yourselfs why?
Rather than bothering, how's about you enlighten us?

Jim Shaw
10-01-06, 04:29 PM
If you do not procreate, what is the point of being on the planet? What great work are you doing that will improve the lot of mankind? Move over and make some room! The ground can do with the fertiliser.
so in your view everyone who is childless for whatever reason is just wasting space on planet earth, well as one of the childless ( by choice ) ...... oh what's the point in debating this subject with a num nuts point of view like yours, I ain't wasting my time, I think your comments and point of view, is very poor :thumbsdow

BJ
10-01-06, 04:30 PM
The definitive reply!

Kirstie
10-01-06, 04:30 PM
Seriously, you stop as soon as you know. Now I know I'm no expert but from past experience you'll get a sort of inkling about a two days after certain things that should have happened dont happen. Then nip up Boots get a pregnancy kit and hey presto - information as required.
Then get ready to wave Turby off on his dive trips, scream a lot and put it down to your hormones.
:)
Matt


Don't you start!

I'd stop as soon as I knew, in spite of what I say. It's just too risky to do otherwise. Plus, once it's born, I get to do all the dive trips while Turbie is left holding the baby!

turbanator
10-01-06, 04:46 PM
Nice kids John, but I disagree that we have a 'duty' to procreate.

There are plenty of precidents in the animal kingdom where only a few animals in a herd or whatever get to pass on their genes, often these are matriachal societies where the mother's sisters are happy enough to look after/protect the offspring as some of their DNA is also being pased on to future generations.

Ok, I know that's survival of the fittest and we're talking about people choosing not to procreate, but they still serve society in other ways, i.e. paying taxes etc etc, in fact doing the things that Keith's rant was mainly about - see it's been going on for centuries and it's not unique to humans.

The thing that gets me is that it's rarely the chav classes that exercise the choice, chav girls tend to drop thie first bundle at 14 and carry on, probabloy with a selection of superb chav sperm doners to ensure the deepest possible chav geen pool.

Personally, though choices earlier in life, I've probably missed the boat now, and the national IQ will be bred down to 50ish and there will be no white, black or coloured people, just Burberry ones.

It's late, I'm ranting, but have enjoyed what for the most part has been a good discussion.

You people with kids, give them a big hug, make sure that they know you love them.

r
Paul

Pretty Flowers
10-01-06, 04:47 PM
Spare a thought too for those of us who aren't childless by choice.

I'd love to have the opportunity to have kids, but I'm pushing 36, so the old fertility isn't what it was 10 years ago, and HWMBO is the father to an 18 year old and a 17 year old, and isn't particularily all there with the idea of adding to his brood.

On the other hand, if I was really desperate to have children, I'd probably have done so by now anyway... I've never felt any great loss by not having my own, and given the choice of giving up the bloke to have kids, I'd choose the bloke over my own brood any day. And then there will be grandchildren *and* I still get to go diving....

I can't really get over the idea that childless people are selfish though... Children aren't some kind of perogative. They're a major responsibility. I'd rather not have kids than screw them up the way that some people manage to do. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with having them in your 40's or 50's. Life pans out the way that it pans out. If the ideal is to have kids young, then just why does society frown so much on 14 year old mothers. Touch of hypocracy there methinks.

Wacker
10-01-06, 04:51 PM
JOHN
http://www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1959&d=1136914179
Not teaching them very well are you!
Masks on the forehead how wrong is that?

JAG
10-01-06, 04:56 PM
Somewhere in all this dross someone wrote that people having kids at late in life were irresponsible (can't be bothered to find it).
My parents had me, despite my mum being told that at her age of 40 it was extremely dangerous for her to have me and that she should get rid of me. My dad was 60 at the time. They had both had marriages that failed, my dad never having the child that he longed for. I was 7 when my dad died and both my parents had died whilst I was young. For all you lucky ones that can remember having a christmas with your parents, I envy you. I don't. When my dad died my mum told me that for the 7 years I knew him, I was the most precious thing in my dads eyes. To this day I regret that I never got to know him and have a father/son relationship.

I now have 2 kids aged 14 and 11 by a previous marriage. My wife has always wanted a child and I can say that I'm so proud that I have been able to fulfill her dreams, with her expecting in April, but unfortunately this is irresponsible due to our ages. Jeez. You just don't get it. So please forgive me when I say that the irresponsible bad parenting brigade can shove it up their arses. Don't make unfounded insinuations and comments about stuff you know jack shit about.

Wacker
10-01-06, 05:11 PM
I say that the irresponsible bad parenting brigade can shove it up their arses. Don't make unfounded insinuations and comments about stuff you know jack shit about.
Blinkerd view Jag
I bet your kids never have done anything wrong as they have such a brilliant Dad!

BJ
10-01-06, 05:14 PM
Your children are the single chance you get to experience totally unconditional love. It beats photographing fishes by miles because it's in a class of its own! They also give you the benefit of unbiased criticism.

JAG
10-01-06, 05:15 PM
Blinkerd view Jag
I bet your kids never have done anything wrong as they have such a brilliant Dad!
Not blinkered, experienced.

purple vonny
10-01-06, 05:26 PM
You lot still at it? I have had a nice afternoon cuddling my friend's baby.

Shall we ring the bell?

Time for the cranky ones to take a nap I think.

dry suit diver
10-01-06, 05:52 PM
Because you choose to have kids, why should the rest of us subsidise you? Not having kids I pay more taxes (not getting any benefits from the allowances given to those with kids) and yet my household uses far less in public services, not having children using the education system or health service.

Because you choose to have kids why should you get first choice of holiday times; why should you be guaranteed to get Christmas off while the childless have to work? My wife and I have had just two Christmas days off together in 15 years! Are we not allowed to enjoy our life as well?

Because you choose to have kids why should you get the best parking spaces at the shopping centre, as though you had a disability? You've got a pram; they've got legs. You're both perfectly healthy. Why do you need to be nearer? If it's a bit of extra work, well that's what you've committed yourself to, isn't it?

I'm not against kids - don't get me wrong. But as Lou has mentioned, some people seem to go into parenthood without much thought, simply becasue it's what's done. We then make it easier for them by giving them all kinds of help and privilages. Why?





sorry mate you are talking bollox about getting first choice of holidays, this is the first Christmas that I have had all 2 weeks off for the last 5 years, all the others I have had to work through only having the bank holidays off and even then providing emergency call out cover.I get the holidays I want because I have the brains to do bit of planning and get my name on the holiday rota before anybody else thinks about it, i have already booked this years family holidays and booked the time off from work, I cannot book next Christmas yet as they come out of next yeras holidays and the dates are not opened up until the end of October but you can be guaranteeed that I will get my name down first and not because the others have no choice.

You lot without kids get to pay lower prices for holidays, flights etc as you can take them in the off peak season - usually when the best weather is but that cannot be blamed on you. We have it bad two ways as SWMBO is a teacher so we do have to pay grtossly inflated prices but hey thats business and if they can screw somebody for a few extra quid they will do.

A few years ago i would have said that the kids of today will be paying NI etc to pay for your pension but that was before Gordon Brown raided our pensions with more vengeance than Bob Maxwell.

I dont expect any favours or priveliges from having kids, the reward I get is the smile on my duaghters face/hugs and kisses/other way of exporessing delight when I/we do something that she really likes.

Lou
10-01-06, 06:13 PM
The definitive reply!

And just what does that define? That you can breed? Do you want a round of applause????

For heaven's sakes, we have folk getting pissed off because they seem to think their own parenting ability is being questioned, or someone is insulting their kids, we have people being truly offensive to childless people calling them morons, or suggesting that they are a waste of space on the planet (space that the planet doesn't have BTW), and this all started over a harmless "rant", in the "rants" section, over the cars which a badly parked and cause traffic chaos around schools.

Is it all worth it? Have kids, have dogs, have a pony, have a car, have three holidays a year, in or out of term time, feed the kids organic, feed them fruit shoots and MaccyD's, don't feed them at all!..... - just stop, read, think before you all take offence. Now, we need a bloody zen meditation forum to sit next to the rant forum for all the over-pressure valves popping off in here ..

722
10-01-06, 06:15 PM
I think everyone needs to go diving in a semi to cool off a bit. :D

Mark Davies
10-01-06, 07:47 PM
Mark I'm not hammering anyone here but just as people should think long and hard about having kids surely also they should think long and hard as to what career they want and if having time at home with family etc over Christmas is important dont go into a job that wont give you that flexibility.

Matt, you are missing the point in the same way that Andy did initially. It's not about whether we are police officers or nurses. It's all to do with not having kids. Sure, if we were not in the jobs we do and were not otherwise expected to work Christmas day it's an issue that would never arise.

The point is about being made to do more than our fair share while others in exactly the same job as us get away with it on the back of the excuse 'but we've got kids'. They took the job knowing they might have to work bank holidays, so why don't they have to work it? We expect that we might have to work some, but not all. As I said, my wife has been given only 1 Christmas off in 14 years while others have never had to work it - there's nothing like equality in that.

chrisch
10-01-06, 08:38 PM
Your children are the single chance you get to experience totally unconditional love.

Bollocks.

Go get a dog.

Chris

Janos
10-01-06, 08:47 PM
Bollocks.

Go get a dog.

Chris

Yes. It's amazing the way that a dog loves its bollocks.

Janos

divingniknaks
10-01-06, 09:10 PM
I agree...satchels, restraints...
I take it that's why Pauls quiet then :D

divingniknaks
10-01-06, 09:23 PM
My Dad was 43 yrs older than me, he died when I was 10 (41 yrs ago) I'm glad he and my Mum decided to have me :)

I adored him, I dont think he was selfish in having me. My Mum was 13yrs his junior though so I had one young(ish) parent (until recently)

Matt
Fabulous post mate.

I hope mine say the same about me. (doubt it , but there's always hope)

I was 42 when David arrived and went through all sorts of hell about my age. He keeps me young, along with his baby brother Jack. Amanda is 14 years my junior, she's the one who is killing me :D

Yeah, there's times when I think Aw god noooooooo, but they are few and far between. The majority of the time it feels like the best thing I ever did.

For the record I was married previuosly for 12 years to someone who didnt want kids and neither did I at that age. I would have been irresponsible then, I know, now I'm older, wiser (Ihope) and more ready for the commitment. They have changed my life totally, some good, some not so good (when I'm in selfish mode)

As for the original post, I hope our kids are well behaved in public (we try), we will not inflict them on people in pubs, restaurants etc. They are ours, why should you have to bear the brunt of them.

Don't have them if you can;t take the responsibility, and trust me it's a huge one. But very rewarding as well.

Sorry about this post but felt like sharing my views.

I love YD sometimes :)

.

JAG
10-01-06, 10:36 PM
this all started over a harmless "rant"
The first 11 words of the original posting suggest otherwise I think. He knew exactly what he was doing.

I regret responding now. I can't believe I fell for it and wasted time in hitting a keyboard. Must remember to be a lurker in future.

On a lighter note, this irresponsible 39 year old has just got back from anti natel class. I asked two other elderly sets of irresponsible parents what there opinions were on being classed as such. Opinions matched my own, unsurprisingly.

Keith L
10-01-06, 10:56 PM
As for the original post, I hope our kids are well behaved in public (we try), we will not inflict them on people in pubs, restaurants etc. They are ours, why should you have to bear the brunt of them.Good post! :thumbsup: If that was the common attitude then I wouldn't have posted the original rant :)

K

If you're going to have a rant, then make it a good one ;)

Frankie Price
10-01-06, 11:11 PM
And just what does that define? That you can breed? Do you want a round of applause????

For heaven's sakes, we have folk getting pissed off because they seem to think their own parenting ability is being questioned, or someone is insulting their kids, we have people being truly offensive to childless people calling them morons, or suggesting that they are a waste of space on the planet (space that the planet doesn't have BTW), and this all started over a harmless "rant", in the "rants" section, over the cars which a badly parked and cause traffic chaos around schools.

Is it all worth it? Have kids, have dogs, have a pony, have a car, have three holidays a year, in or out of term time, feed the kids organic, feed them fruit shoots and MaccyD's, don't feed them at all!..... - just stop, read, think before you all take offence. Now, we need a bloody zen meditation forum to sit next to the rant forum for all the over-pressure valves popping off in here ..

Nice one Lou:thumbsup:

Wacker
10-01-06, 11:11 PM
As for the original post, I hope our kids are well behaved in public (we try), we will not inflict them on people in pubs, restaurants etc. They are ours, why should you have to bear the brunt of them.

Don't have them if you can;t take the responsibility, and trust me it's a huge one. But very rewarding as well.

Sorry about this post but felt like sharing my views.

I love YD sometimes :)

. Good on you mate :thumbsup:

stewbie
11-01-06, 02:16 AM
.

BJ
11-01-06, 03:09 AM
It has been good fun. The argument for NOT having children has been both eloquent and persuasive. However I feel that those who make it might be hoist on their own petard in that they have singularly failed to explain their own parent's point-of-view.
The president of the Community of Owners at a development in Spain where I had property once had been a member of the SS during WW2. He hated young people because they are rude and noisy. I had to explain to him that if he put all the young people in gas-chambers there would never be any old people.
(And this post comes from someone who lives close to St.Mary's College. Will you PLEASE stop throwing your beer cans over my garden wall!)

aclivity
11-01-06, 07:18 AM
Matt, you are missing the point in the same way that Andy did initially.

Mark, I didn't miss the point ... I entirely got the point. I deleted my post as I decided it wasn't worth adding to the (ha!) debate. I couldn't possibly care less what anyone else thinks on this subject - but my point still stands about knowing both sides of a subject before ranting off on it.



we have people being truly offensive to childless people calling them morons

1. I took that statement away, the only reason it is still on this thread is because someone else quoted it.
2. So you don't think any of the parents reading some of the statements on here are not offended?
3. I notice that no-one has reacted to being called supercilious (arrogant, haughty, q.v. dictionary.com).

Kirstie
11-01-06, 07:47 AM
It has been good fun. The argument for NOT having children has been both eloquent and persuasive. However I feel that those who make it might be hoist on their own petard in that they have singularly failed to explain their own parent's point-of-view.




I think my parents' argument for deciding to have me would be much the same as my argument for not having children - we have minds of our own. Just because others choose to procreate, doesn't mean I have to.

Lou
11-01-06, 08:07 AM
1. I took that statement away, the only reason it is still on this thread is because someone else quoted it.
2. So you don't think any of the parents reading some of the statements on here are not offended?
3. I notice that no-one has reacted to being called supercilious (arrogant, haughty, q.v. dictionary.com).

1.. Yes, but it is still there - I have been guilty of posting and then regretting it, but if you post it at all you have to expect it will stay on. That is why I am trying really, really hard this year to read my stuff first. I am not 100% successful :D

2. I think you will find that is the first part fo the paragraph which contains the short bit you have quoted. However all the stuff against parents has been over poor parenting, certainly the way I have read it. The comments that I picked out were against all childless people.

3. Maybe folk would rather be supercilious than morons :D Although, technically we could argue that it would be somewhat tricky, or at least unusual, to be both supercilious and a moron. :p

Anyway...I think I now give up on "calm down everyone" posts as someone always ends up arguing over those too! Did you want the full argument or the 1/2 hour debate? LOL

chrisch
11-01-06, 08:17 AM
I couldn't possibly care less what anyone else thinks on this subject .

Fine,butt out.

Taking part in debate should broaden your views and enable you to see the other side of a point of view. Sadly, this thread has been a slagging match between two groups of people who have done nothing more than exercise their choice on one of the most basic acts of all biological organisms.

Keith's origanal post was provocative but raises points about the way that parents of young children are viewed in contrast to those who's kids have grown up, those who choose not to have kids or those who have not yet started their families. This aspect was lost long ago.

This has become a handbag.net debate.

Chris

calski
11-01-06, 08:29 AM
It all boils down to two camps with two completely different points of view: those who have kids and those who don't. However, speaking from personal experience, the two are not mutually exclusive or completely alien to one another. During the posts, we've had people commenting who have had step kids, no kids, grandkids and people who don't like kids, love kids couldn't eat whole kids and so on... it's been pretty broad and all encompassing.

As Lou pointed out, the "anti-kids" camp, as it has been perceived by some "pro-kids" posters haven't actually slated people for having kids or for wanting them. They've attacked the socially irresponsible "parents" who neglect to raise their children properly: not once have people at the YD table who have children been slagged for failing in their duties. Indeed, Woz and many others have been praised by the people with no children for their approach to parenting.

As far as I can tell, that's one of the points of the rant as it was initially. It also covered the fact that there are, and of course, you get this in all walks of life, those parents who feel that certain rules and obligations to others to not apply to them. We have all seen them, whether they are dropping kids off during the school run, allowing their kids to run riot through pubs, claiming "first dibs" on Christmas holidays, letting their kids tell teachers to F*** off. But we've also seen inconsiderate people on trains shoving people out of the way to get on / off or to get a seat. We've all been cut up by drivers, both lorry and car, who fail to look / indicate / give a monkeys about other road users.

The point I'm trying to make (albeit in a circumvented way) is that there are always those who fail to think of anyone but themselves. The rant, as I read it, addressed those who had children and then felt that they (children) were a license to selfish and inconsiderate behaviour. This rant could have been addressed to any of the other "inconsiderate" people I mention above ( a car doesn't give you a license to hog the middle lane etc...).

Anyway, that's my soapbox bit over with - going to have a nice cup of tea now. If nothing else, this has been an enlightening read in many instances (the thread, certainly not this post!).

Kind regards,

calski

p.s Lou, it is possible to be a supercilious moron - just look at most MPs for examples!

Dizzydiver
11-01-06, 08:30 AM
I think my parents' argument for deciding to have me would be much the same as my argument for not having children - we have minds of our own. Just because others choose to procreate, doesn't mean I have to.

Agree with the last line

My mum and dad were young when they had my brother, then me. My mum is one of those people that just adores kids, my father maybe has regrets about having us but has somewhere along the line become a doting grandfather to my brothers lad. Both of my parents would have made up their own minds.

I have made up mine.

1693
11-01-06, 08:35 AM
I personally do not like children...

For the record - although I am personally child free I do have a step son who I took responsibility for when he was a teenager. So don't whinge at me how difficult it is, I know!Keith, I feel truly sorry for the poor kid that you feel has been foisted on you. You sound like the worst sort of step-dad - one that begrudges the role.

The original post was an ill-conceived tirade that painted ALL parents as serial system-abusers and ALL kids as spoilt brats. I don't recognise myself, any of my friends who have children, or the children themselves anywhere in this trite piece of garbage.

Being a father is the most rewarding thing I've ever experienced. Nothing else in my life has come close. I was 37 when my son was born and he's the joy of my life and my best friend. From the other parents that have expressed an opinion here, I sense that I'm not alone in feeling this way.

Parenthood is NOT difficult, it's a privilege. To avoid any doubt, when I use the word parenthood, I mean the whole package; not just fathering children, but raising them, caring for them, teaching them discipline (without having to raise a hand to them) and helping them to become responsible adults who will hopefully feel able to do the same thing in their turn.

I couldn't give a monkey's about other people choosing not to have children and, frankly Keith, it sounds like you have have one too many. I learnt long ago that telling them they didn't know what they were missing was like pissing in the wind. Very few people like this, in my experience, reach old age without at least a little regret.

Woz
11-01-06, 08:38 AM
On a lighter note, this irresponsible 39 year old has just got back from anti natel class....When I went to them oooo 10 years ago, they got all the blokes in one group and all the ladies in another and asked them to discuss what their thoughts and fears about the birth was.

Everyone else said things along the lines of "healthy baby" or "no complications". I just piped up and said "I hope it's not ginger".

Oh and when you get to have a go on the gas and air, have a really good long hard puff on it. A couple of drags makes bugger all difference but huff it like hell and all of a sudden you feel completely battered. It's great.

turbanator
11-01-06, 08:40 AM
I couldn't possibly care less what anyone else thinks on this subject - but my point still stands about knowing both sides of a subject before ranting off on it.

Well as an ex-stepfather, i.e. when I met my wife, she had 2 kids 4 and 6 and we were together for 22 years and are now separated, I think that I probably have as much inisght, if not more than someone who has kids and claims to remember what life was like before they came along, after all you can never go back to a state of never having had kids, can you, and nor, you say, would you want to.

Unless people really want to give their full circumstances on a public list, you can hardly know exactly where they are coming from, but from the number of people contributing to the debate, it's pretty certain that many will have experienced a lot of what's being spoken about, having older parents, being a child of old or young parents, being a step-parent or child, choocing to have kids or not, having them come along unplanned, or those that have gone through years or trying to have a child, successful or not.
[/quote]



1. I took that statement away, the only reason it is still on this thread is because someone else quoted it.

Fair play, it is possible to hold strong opinions on a subject without becoming insulting.



2. So you don't think any of the parents reading some of the statements on here are not offended?

I would hope that as a resonably intellegent bunch, we can all get out POVs across without resorting to offending people.
Like you did, some people will 'shoot from the hip', I also could not care less whether you chose to have kids or not, though I might dress it up as saying that I respect your opinion, that way I get my point across without offending you.
[/quuote]



3. I notice that no-one has reacted to being called supercilious (arrogant, haughty, q.v. dictionary.com).
The true morons did not understand it - QED.

atb
Paul

Keith L
11-01-06, 08:52 AM
Keith's origanal post was provocative but raises points about the way that parents of young children are viewed in contrast to those who's kids have grown up, those who choose not to have kids or those who have not yet started their families. This aspect was lost long ago.I don't think it has been lost, it's just that some people never found it in the first place :)

The original rant was not about people having children, at no point have any of the child free supporters tried to deny that basic right and freedom to anybody. What this is all about is those parents who think that their "rights" take priority over everybody else's just because they've got kids, they think that everybody owes them a debt of gratitude and that they can force their little brats and their problems onto everybody else.

But as is usual, as soon as you dare to even mention it, the insults come flooding in. The people that are the problem are simply incapable of comprehending that other peoples universes do not revolve around their kids, so they attack the messenger. Were some parents upset by my rant? I hope so! Because if you're the type of parent who lets their little brats run riot and constantly throws sickies leaving others to sort out the mess - then your kids and your actions offend me. If you find me saying so offensive - TOUGH!

Keith L

chas49
11-01-06, 08:52 AM
Unless people really want to give their full circumstances on a public list, you can hardly know exactly where they are coming from, but from the number of people contributing to the debate, it's pretty certain that many will have experienced a lot of what's being spoken about, having older parents, being a child of old or young parents, being a step-parent or child, choocing to have kids or not, having them come along unplanned, or those that have gone through years or trying to have a child, successful or not.


which is why all the posts which say things along the lines of "all people with kids are....." or "all people without kids are....." are a waste of time. (and yes - all generalisations are false :) )

Jim Shaw
11-01-06, 08:53 AM
Not quite sure how this subject has gone on so long, it seems there are 2 different points of view,

Then childless, have made a desision that we do not want to have kids, ( for whatever reason, it's nobodys business but there own ) They have chosen that just because they are fertile, does'nt mean that they must reproduce, It's surley much better to have the intellegence, to not to have a child in the first place, rather than have one, then wish you had'nt, I'm sure no one would vote for that.

It's better that if people don't want children then they don't have them, the plannet is a busy enough place it's not as if mankinds numbers is in serious decline.


The Parents, they have chosen to have children, and those kids are without doubt the best thing in there lives, they all think that their children are the most precious thing alive, ( and they are )

End of topic, what's right for some is not right for others,

Peace and love to all :kiss2: :kiss2: :kiss2:

Kirstie
11-01-06, 08:53 AM
I couldn't give a monkey's about other people choosing not to have children and, frankly Keith, it sounds like you have have one too many. I learnt long ago that telling them they didn't know what they were missing was like pissing in the wind. Very few people like this, in my experience, reach old age without at least a little regret.

Regret about what? Not being argumentative, just curious to know. Or do you mean people regret not having had children as an insurance policy against a lonely old age? ;)

Allan Carr
11-01-06, 09:01 AM
I very much agree with what Nick has said. My elder son dropped around last night and we had a great evening. I feel privilged to have been a father of two fine young men and I have always tried to set a good example to them. I've never believed in letting kids have all their own way, as I have seen some parents do - children need to know boundaries and to understand that they can't have everything they want.

Bringing kids into the world is the easy bit - the parenting for the next 18 years is the real challenge. My kids haven't had it easy, my first wife and I divorced when they were 14 and 9 but our relationship survived that (she moved out expecting them to go with her but they chose to stay with me). Diving together helped bring us even closer. When their friends were off on expensive foreign holidays, we were camping up in the Farnes - it was all I couls afford, but I know who had more fun!

I re-married 10 years ago and a step-daughter and two grandchildren have come as part of the package. Again, I feel privileged to have them.

My kids are now grown up but I recognise the pressures on parents, particularly where both parents have to work to keep a roof over their heads. I don't resent them having 'privilges' of knocking off early to look after sick kids. Very few people that I know have abused this. As a single parent for several years, this was a major worry to me.

We need to realise that our children are the ones who will be supporting us in our old age. There have been comments made about people having made their own provision for retirement but that ignores the fact that they will still be relying on the younger generations to support the environment in which they live - it is not simply a matter of finances.

Dizzydiver
11-01-06, 09:04 AM
I adore my nephew, he is without doubt my brothers pride and joy. He is, on the whole, a well behaved, polite young lad (apart from those days when like all kids he wants his own way).

My brother had the right to father him and is justly proud of being what I consider a great dad. He would absolutely not expect me to have one too if I do not feel it is right.

Some kids are nice, some kids are naughty, some kids are adorable, some are a pain in the @rse. Not always due to parental choice or influence, we are human beings and we behave how we want to even when small.

Kelly

MATTBIN
11-01-06, 09:04 AM
2 ponits then hopefully I'm done.

1) Keith - children cannot behave like adults, they, the children, need to learn that skill, some never do. Sadly some UK adults are less tolerant of this process than others, sadly some parent dont put as much effort in to control their children as perhaps they should. I doubt though your rant on YD will do much to resolve the situation. I find it strange that you have ranted here but not on any other website, or am I being paranoid?

2) Kirstie, I doubt many parents look at their children as some sort of insurance policy against a lonely old age, it may happen that the children hang around or more likely they wont and I for one do not wish to prejudice my children's future by requesting they look after me when I'm old.

Matt

Jim Shaw
11-01-06, 09:07 AM
. My elder son dropped around last night and we had a great evening. I feel privilged to have been a father of two fine young men
What a good well balanced thought out post allan, have a green:thumbsup:

1693
11-01-06, 09:15 AM
Regret about what? Not being argumentative, just curious to know. Or do you mean people regret not having had children as an insurance policy against a lonely old age? ;)OK, as an example: my mum's older sister and her husband chose not to have kids. From my understanding this was out of a desire to be able to go out on the piss and generally 'have a good time' whenever they felt like it, not because they didn't feel able or willing to raise them.

When my mother would visit her, taking my sister and me along, covers would be placed on the chairs lest we make a mess and if we showed any interest in the various nick-nacks around the house, we would be told to keep our hands off. I need to stress that we were not out-of-control brats, just kids doing what kids do.

Needless to say, my mother tired of this, as did we kids and the visits grew more and more infrequent, to such and extent that my mum and her closest relative grew somewhat distant. My sister and I regarded our aunt as a miserable old git that hated kids.

When my uncle died, my aunt grew more and more bitter about being alone and resented us not visiting. She took to buying the affection of her next-door neighbours young kids by giving them money and presents and was right-royally taken to the cleaners by their mother who robbed her of a small fortune. We didn't give a toss.

Now, I am very aware that this is only one person's story, but it is not uncommon. Human beings are gregarious animals and we all (even an anti-social bastard like me) crave the company of others, especially those that love us unconditionally. This becomes even more desirable as one ages.

BJ
11-01-06, 09:17 AM
Children often behave childishly. They must be forgiven. Adults behaving childishly? That's another matter.
Since most people who post here are into conservation, may I pose a simple question? For whom are we conserving things?
If I only had to plan for the rest of my life (30 years at most) things would be quite simple. I could behave very irresponsibly indeed.
You spend the first ten years as a child.
The second ten years as a teenager.
The third ten years as a young person.
The fourth ten years in your prime.
And the rest (up to say another 40 or 50 if you are lucky) as an old git.
Childhood is just a quick passing phase on the way to being an old git.
I am an old git.

Kirstie
11-01-06, 09:18 AM
2) Kirstie, I doubt many parents look at their children as some sort of insurance policy against a lonely old age, it may happen that the children hang around or more likely they wont and I for one do not wish to prejudice my children's future by requesting they look after me when I'm old.

Matt


Well I, for one, sincerely hope my mother expects me to look after her in her old age. She's moving to Crete on Monday, so if she needs anyone to tend to her, Paul and I will just have to bite the bullet and move out there. Hard old life, isn't it? :)

What a good daughter I am.

Dizzydiver
11-01-06, 09:20 AM
Since most people who post here are into conservation, may I pose a simple question? For whom are we conserving things?



Good question. So far the next generation have a lot of mess to clear up.

Kirstie
11-01-06, 09:26 AM
OK, as an example: my mum's older sister and her husband chose not to have kids. From my understanding this was out of a desire to be able to go out on the piss and generally 'have a good time' whenever they felt like it, not because they didn't feel able or willing to raise them.

When my mother would visit her, taking my sister and me along, covers would be placed on the chairs lest we make a mess and if we showed any interest in the various nick-nacks around the house, we would be told to keep our hands off. I need to stress that we were not out-of-control brats, just kids doing what kids do.

Needless to say, my mother tired of this, as did we kids and the visits grew more and more infrequent, to such and extent that my mum and her closest relative grew somewhat distant. My sister and I regarded our aunt as a miserable old git that hated kids.

When my uncle died, my aunt grew more and more bitter about being alone and resented us not visiting. She took to buying the affection of her next-door neighbours young kids by giving them money and presents and was right-royally taken to the cleaners by their mother who robbed her of a small fortune. We didn't give a toss.

Now, I am very aware that this is only one person's story, but it is not uncommon. Human beings are gregarious animals and we all (even an anti-social bastard like me) crave the company of others, especially those that love us unconditionally. This becomes even more desirable as one ages.

That's a sad story.

Funny thing, though. My aunt and uncle are childless and live in a beautiful house filled with expensive ornaments. As a child, I was terrified of breaking something whenever we visited, but my aunt and uncle always stressed that the ornaments were only 'things' and it didn't matter if they got broken. On the other hand, I had my parents telling me, before every visit, 'Break something and we'll give you away!'

Incidentally, I don't think my aunt and uncle regret their decision for a minute. On a shallow note, my aunt is 75, looks 55, and has a fabulous figure. My mother always said it's because she never had kids!

Lou
11-01-06, 09:30 AM
Good question. So far the next generation have a lot of mess to clear up.

Wrong way round, John. Conservation is about reducing the damage done by too many nasty, horrible people impacting on the planet.

The best conservation would be cutting down the human population which is currently unsustainable.

Edit : - How topical.... Parenting Academy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4598722.stm)

BJ
11-01-06, 09:35 AM
What method do you prefer? Trench warfare, nuclear holocaust, genocide, chicken flu, or mass suicide? If it's the last, you go ahead. I'll be along some time later!

Kirstie
11-01-06, 09:40 AM
What method do you prefer? Trench warfare, nuclear holocaust, genocide, chicken flu, or mass suicide? If it's the last, you go ahead. I'll be along some time later!


How about just not bringing even more kids into a world which is already overpopulated?

turbanator
11-01-06, 09:48 AM
What method do you prefer? Trench warfare, nuclear holocaust, genocide, chicken flu, or mass suicide? If it's the last, you go ahead. I'll be along some time later!

Well we could use the poor people as food - Soylent Green anyone?
But then it's awfully un PC to suggest anything like what you say Lou is implying.

Eg.
Let people in countries where local farming can't sustain the population starve down to a level where the crops can support them - as happens with animals.

Not accept immigrants/refugees - similar to pack type animals

Introduce enforced child limiting progams China, Gattaca or that other film - Fortress? Also a bit like animals where only the Alphas of the pack get to breed.

None of the options are very palatable, because we judge our humanity by how we treat the weakest members of society.
Mebbe it's true, "The Weak Shall Inhibit The Earth".

chrisch
11-01-06, 09:56 AM
What method do you prefer? Trench warfare, nuclear holocaust, genocide, chicken flu, or mass suicide? If it's the last, you go ahead. I'll be along some time later!

Education and the availability of contraception are what is required.

Population growth in developed economies is sustainable the issue for the planet is over-population in less developed economies. Given the propensity of many people around the world to view women as little more than reproductive devices to continue the line of manhood its hardly surprising the way things are.

As an aside I think we can expect all of your methods to occur at some point John. As the planet warms up we can expect war over territory and water, the US would be happy to nuke Iran if the news is anything to go by, chicken flu is going to kill million - (c) Daily Mail - and mass suicide happens every so often when you get a load of religious nuts together...

Chris

Dr Dundee
11-01-06, 10:09 AM
How about just not bringing even more kids into a world which is already overpopulated?

Good idea! I know, lets stop producing children completely, or educating them to do better than we have done with the planet and allow Earth to recover by removing our pestilent human plague from its surface!

But then as we get old we will have nobody to grow crops to feed us or provide power to keep us warm, or medicine when we old gits get sick. We could be the last of the species.

I would be all for that! Oops too late, already have two handsome, intelligent, caring boys. Never mind.

C

1693
11-01-06, 10:10 AM
How about just not bringing even more kids into a world which is already overpopulated?That's a bit of an oversimplification. The working population of the UK is set to fall to an unsustainable level unless we 'open up the floodgates' as the Daily Mail might put it. It will be economic migrants from Eastern Europe that will be shovelling shit in order to pay the taxes that will keep you from starvation in your dotage unless you're one of the fortunate few that is able to save the couple of hundred grand you'll need to buy anything like a decent annuity.

Granted, the world is over-populated and is set to become even more so, but if it's the future viability of the planet Earth as a habitable place for human beings you desire, reducing the population by about 300 million would suffice - they all live in the United States of America.

Dizzydiver
11-01-06, 10:12 AM
Good idea! I know, lets stop producing children completely, or educating them to do better than we have done with the planet and allow Earth to recover by removing our pestilent human plague from its surface!

But then as we get old we will have nobody to grow crops to feed us or provide power to keep us warm, or medicine when we old gits get sick. We could be the last of the species.

I would be all for that! Oops too late, already have two handsome, intelligent, caring boys. Never mind.

C

But an excellent idea all the same.

You of course will have to accept that your children are the last members of our species and it will be them suffering at their lifes end and not you.

But the planet will be better off.

calski
11-01-06, 10:15 AM
they all live in the United States of America.

Hey come on now! Doesn't Chardy live there now! Surely you'd make an exception for him and his family???

ATB

calski

42
11-01-06, 10:23 AM
Introduce enforced child limiting progams China, Gattaca or that other film - Fortress? Also a bit like animals where only the Alphas of the pack get to breed.


Starship troopers - people have to earn the right to procreate.

its an often discussed topic in many sci-fi novels etc, which is often a good indicator of the way humanity is heading. The good novelist write with one foot in fact and one foot in conjecture.

Kirstie
11-01-06, 10:27 AM
Good idea! I know, lets stop producing children completely,


What an excellent suggestion :D

Alternatively, let's just stop producing kids that we can't provide for without a handout from the state. That'd be a start.

Dizzydiver
11-01-06, 10:30 AM
I think these are the lovely creatures we are discussing - not those from good homes with sensible, loving parents (before you ask, no I don't agree with Tonys suggestion.....):

Tony Blair stepped up his drive to restore a culture of respect in Britain yesterday with a raft of new summary justice powers that would extend compulsory parenting programmes and put the worst problem families into a national network of "sinbins".
The prime minister's third term push to deal with yob culture would impose financial sanctions, including cuts to housing benefit, on evicted problem families who refused to cooperate with compulsory rehabilitation programmes.

The Respect "action plan" published yesterday also includes the power to evict for the first time antisocial private householders, as well as social housing tenants. The police would be able to use existing powers to "shut and seal" homes for up to three months.

Vicky_scuba_chick
11-01-06, 10:30 AM
What an excellent suggestion :D

Alternatively, let's just stop producing kids that we can't provide for without a handout from the state. That'd be a start.


that would be a start. It might make some people think twice about bringing children into this world!

Woz
11-01-06, 10:33 AM
that would be a start. It might make some people think twice about bringing children into this world!Anyone remember that Wife Swap programme where the 'orrible loud woman and her husband with 6 kids had a total handout of 35 grand? The equivalent of a well over 50 grand job. And all he did was, er, nowt.

Now that makes my blood boil.

Vicky_scuba_chick
11-01-06, 10:34 AM
Anyone remember that Wife Swap programme where the 'orrible loud woman and her husband with 6 kids had a total handout of 35 grand? The equivalent of a well over 50 grand job. And all he did was, er, nowt.

Now that makes my blood boil.

it makes my blood boil too. grrrrr

calski
11-01-06, 10:35 AM
The Respect "action plan" published yesterday also includes the power to evict for the first time antisocial private householders, as well as social housing tenants. The police would be able to use existing powers to "shut and seal" homes for up to three months.

Sadly, and I know that this isn't your viewpoint DD, but this is another example of New Labours crap legislation / attention seeking. Has anyone thought about the consequences of this? I mean, evict someone: ok. But WHERE do they go? They don't just disappear do they?

As mentioned earlier, the key to this is education... I seem to remember a vague election promise that said "education education education" but apparently, it takes too long to see the results for New Labour to persevere...

Ho-hum...

calski

Dizzydiver
11-01-06, 10:38 AM
Sadly, and I know that this isn't your viewpoint DD, but this is another example of New Labours crap legislation / attention seeking. Has anyone thought about the consequences of this? I mean, evict someone: ok. But WHERE do they go? They don't just disappear do they?

As mentioned earlier, the key to this is education... I seem to remember a vague election promise that said "education education education" but apparently, it takes too long to see the results for New Labour to persevere...

Ho-hum...

calski

The New Conservatives as I like to call Tony and Co. seem to be well off the mark with the move people out of their homes idea. As you rightly say - where would they go then? What improvement has it made to society? What have the kids from these families learnt? Aah, USA here we come - let's just put everyone into Guantanamo and then we won't need to deal with the issue.

Jim Shaw
11-01-06, 10:46 AM
What an excellent suggestion :D

Alternatively, let's just stop producing kids that we can't provide for without a handout from the state. That'd be a start.damn I can't green you again, I wish all parents had that point of view, i'd save the rest of us a fortune

chrisch
11-01-06, 10:48 AM
Anyone remember that Wife Swap programme where the 'orrible loud woman and her husband with 6 kids had a total handout of 35 grand? The equivalent of a well over 50 grand job. And all he did was, er, nowt.

Now that makes my blood boil.

It pisses me off too, but what is your real world answer to the situation? You cannot force the guy to work, after all who wants to employ him. Even if he got a job the benefits would still be there so the comparision of the net income is not correct.

If you figure it out please let the government know. They, and their predecesors have been working on it for 40 years without an answer.

Chris

turbanator
11-01-06, 10:52 AM
Aah, USA here we come - let's just put everyone into Guantanamo and then we won't need to deal with the issue.

Well the sin bin idea only works if you 'purge' them every now and again.
IIRC it was tried in the early 40's, it was not very popular and what's more it did not work.

As Woz said just now and I mentioned earlier, it's the 'piss takers' that are annoying, but if we look to our animal roots, we're programmed to piss-take and bully, why waste time and energy hunting down food if you can take it from a weaker member of your own pack/tribe. Better still, let's get civillised and people will GIVE us food, shelter etc if we can't be assed to work or would rather spend our time reproducing.

I think Darwinism would support that, so in a way it's odd because the stronger members of society decide, 'Hmm, let's help the weaker ones' with aid, a welfare state etc etc, and then are surprised when the more feral members of them take advantage.

I think this whole debate has proved that we are still true to our animal roots and as someone choosing not to have kids (but spending 20 years raising another man's), and choosing not to evade taxes, then maybe my genes should be bred out of the race, after all who is really the stupid one?
r
Paul

chrisch
11-01-06, 10:53 AM
Stop talking sense Paul, you're spoiling the argument.

Chris

Dizzydiver
11-01-06, 10:57 AM
a) Well the sin bin idea only works if you 'purge' them every now and again.
IIRC it was tried in the early 40's, it was not very popular and what's more it did not work.

b) after all who is really the stupid one?
r
Paul

I'm not suggesting we put anyone in the sin bin - I'm implying (obviously very badly) that is the way Tonys mind seems to be going.

On point b) I'd have to say you are not stupid - you seem a very sorted individual who tries his best.

Woz
11-01-06, 11:00 AM
It pisses me off too, but what is your real world answer to the situation? You cannot force the guy to work, after all who wants to employ him. Even if he got a job the benefits would still be there so the comparision of the net income is not correct.

If you figure it out please let the government know. They, and their predecesors have been working on it for 40 years without an answer.

ChrisI dunno. But anything would do. Scraping dogshit off the paths in my local park would be a great start. You don't need any quals for that. Just so that he put something back into the system instead of spending it on Lambert and Butlers and widescreen TVs.

chrisch
11-01-06, 11:07 AM
I dunno. But anything would do. Scraping dogshit off the paths in my local park would be a great start. You don't need any quals for that. Just so that he put something back into the system instead of spending it on Lambert and Butlers and widescreen TVs.

Like yourself I feel that after a period of unemployment that job seekers should "put back" in some way. Even a day a week or something. However, the privatised companies that scrape dogshit off the park pavements will complain about "unfair competition".

The whole unemployment benefit system is so fucked up that for many people working is the dumbest thing they could do. It needs to be scrapped totally and replaced with a system that protects people as well as encouraging people to help themselves. As soon as you accept that we should help people we open the doors to abuse. But of course we must help people - even the best of us find ourselves without work from time to time.

Chris

turbanator
11-01-06, 11:08 AM
I'm not suggesting we put anyone in the sin bin - I'm implying (obviously very badly) that is the way Tonys mind seems to be going.


Well what can you expect from a labour leader who sends his kids to a private school? Just proving that whatever you say and how altruistic you make out to be, you want the best for your own offspring - I can't argue against that, we're the culmination of millions of years worth of programming to ensure that happens.



On point b) I'd have to say you are not stupid - you seem a very sorted individual who tries his best.

Well I suppose only time and a big enough sample will tell whether the strategy programmed into my genes is better than that programmed into some lazy chav's.
r
P