View Full Version : Meg MOD1 - Rip off?



Phoenix
08-11-06, 08:50 PM
I've just seen Meg MOD1 training advertised at 850, are ISC taking the piss or what? How can they justify this cost when you can be trained on other units such as Boris for 600?

Ian

onthetrain
08-11-06, 08:53 PM
does seem a lot.

I see Richie is offering cross over training from CCR to meg for 500. Seems Meg training is very expensive in omparison with other units. No idea why though

turbanator
08-11-06, 08:55 PM
does seem a lot.

I see Richie is offering cross over training from CCR to meg for 500. Seems Meg training is very expensive in omparison with other units. No idea why though

So if you did inspo, then Meg you'd still be in it for a grand.
Are other crossovers that much?

Phoenix
08-11-06, 09:02 PM
So if you did inspo, then Meg you'd still be in it for a grand.
Are other crossovers that much?

I don't know, there's no way I'd pay 850 for a MOD1 though, it can't be any more complex than a boris course, looks like they are just exploiting the limited availability of Instructors, utter bollocks.

Ian

turbanator
08-11-06, 09:10 PM
I don't know, there's no way I'd pay 850 for a MOD1 though, it can't be any more complex than a boris course, looks like they are just exploiting the limited availability of Instructors, utter bollocks.

Ian

Well in the UK there are only 2 Kiss (3 now?) instructors, I paid 500 for mod 1 here, so you're right, it's probably a pisstake.

This was my main query about BS-AC inspo courses. The first batch of instructors would probably be existing inspo instructors,. Why would any of them charge club rates for a BS-AC inspo course when they could earn 500 or so for example running an IANTD one?

If the BS-AC one was going to be 500 quid, then why choose it over an IANTD or TDI one?

I am a BSAC member btw, so its not an anti-BS-AC dig, just an observation.

Phoenix
08-11-06, 09:24 PM
Well in the UK there are only 2 Kiss (3 now?) instructors, I paid 500 for mod 1 here, so you're right, it's probably a pisstake.

This was my main query about BS-AC inspo courses. The first batch of instructors would probably be existing inspo instructors,. Why would any of them charge club rates for a BS-AC inspo course when they could earn 500 or so for example running an IANTD one?

If the BS-AC one was going to be 500 quid, then why choose it over an IANTD or TDI one?

I am a BSAC member btw, so its not an anti-BS-AC dig, just an observation.

I think BSAC needed to embrace CCR on a more formal footing hence the desire for an internal training module, I also wouldn't be too surprised to see the likes of Nick Jewison teaching it quite happily as he isn't dependent upon instructing fees for a living.

Ian

Morg_NZ
08-11-06, 09:31 PM
Well, I paid 850 for my MOD 1 course on a Meg and felt it worth every penny!!!!!!!!:)

You get what you pay for...quality instructors I think should be paid a suitable salary for quality training!!!!

If you were instuctor doing a full time course from 8am until about 8pm for 4 days...and did class room studies as well how much would you expect to get paid???

turbanator
08-11-06, 09:34 PM
Well, I paid 850 for my MOD 1 course on a Meg and felt it worth every penny!!!!!!!!:)

You get what you pay for...quality instructors I think should be paid a suitable salary for quality training!!!!

If you were instuctor doing a full time course from 8am until about 8pm for 4 days...and did class room studies as well how much would you expect to get paid???

I agree about the quality of instruction issue. Was your course 1:1?
Mine had between 2 and 4 students on any particular day - that was my fault though as I had no leave left and could only do weekends, my my instructo fitted me in with other courses.

r
Paul

Phoenix
08-11-06, 09:42 PM
Well, I paid 850 for my MOD 1 course on a Meg and felt it worth every penny!!!!!!!!:)

You get what you pay for...quality instructors I think should be paid a suitable salary for quality training!!!!

If you were instuctor doing a full time course from 8am until about 8pm for 4 days...and did class room studies as well how much would you expect to get paid???



I did the MOD1 boris course and from what I know about the Meg I can't see it as any more complex a unit, the price still seems excessive to me. I don't care how many hours your course took, ultimately it comes down to the quality of the instruction and the receptivness of the students, there is only so much to learn in order to meet the course standards after all.

As regards my personal remuneration requirements, this is an irrelevancy, surely the industry norm is more applicable?

Ian

petemes
08-11-06, 10:53 PM
Hi,
Just a little voice from the other part of the planet.
My take on all this is that people have been under valuing their training globally for decades. Shouldnt really matter what people charge for a course. Its whether you get value for it. If you paid 50 pounds for a course and thought it was crap then I am sure you would not think it worth it and want your money back. My take is there is no such thing as "industry norm" If someone wants to under value themselves then you cant stop that. But if someone can give you value in what you paid for, then who cares if you paid 1000 for the course.


Again I come back to the simple thing. If you get value out of the training then it was worth it.


Pete

Janos
09-11-06, 07:40 AM
Well in the UK there are only 2 Kiss (3 now?) instructors, I paid 500 for mod 1 here, so you're right, it's probably a pisstake.
There are three that I know of: Dave, Richie, and Martin. And there's another bloke too. [/QUOTE]



This was my main query about BS-AC inspo courses. The first batch of instructors would probably be existing inspo instructors,. Why would any of them charge club rates for a BS-AC inspo course when they could earn 500 or so for example running an IANTD one?

If the BS-AC one was going to be 500 quid, then why choose it over an IANTD or TDI one?

I am a BSAC member btw, so its not an anti-BS-AC dig, just an observation.

I agree, sort of. As with all technical courses - the thing is that it's the instructor that's important. Cut me and I bleed BSAC blood [1] but even I wouldn't do a course just because it was BSAC.

However, what I think will happen is that a lot of the professional instructors will start adding BSAC strings to their bow. For example, I think that Tekstreme in Egypt already offer BSAC courses, and my guess is that most of the BSAC tech courses will be run by professional instructors.

There are an awful lot of professional instructors who are members of clubs too.

Janos

[1] - BSAC has been really good for me - I do loads of diving now :D

Morg_NZ
09-11-06, 07:46 AM
Hi,
Just a little voice from the other part of the planet.
My take on all this is that people have been under valuing their training globally for decades. Shouldnt really matter what people charge for a course. Its whether you get value for it. If you paid 50 pounds for a course and thought it was crap then I am sure you would not think it worth it and want your money back. My take is there is no such thing as "industry norm" If someone wants to under value themselves then you cant stop that. But if someone can give you value in what you paid for, then who cares if you paid 1000 for the course.


Again I come back to the simple thing. If you get value out of the training then it was worth it.





Pete
:) Like I said..... I thought I got good value, I believe the instructor should be paid a reasonable salary, quality training is something worth paying for, and about and the ammount I paid for my training!!!!!....... well it was worth it :)

Dave Crampton
09-11-06, 07:48 AM
Sorry to hijack this thread but a local diver is doing an KISS Instructors course in December with Rich Stevenson. I'm hioping to get my MOD 1 with Rich in Feb 07. That will be 4 KISS instructors in the UK then. He's Ray Reeves and posts as Deepnark on RBW.

Odin
09-11-06, 07:51 AM
The BS-AC course I did was through a school.
1:1 and I paid the current (average) rate.

I had originally started on a course with another (EXCELLENT) instructor.
For many various reasons I had to stop before the course was completed.

I restarted (from scratch) the BS-AC course, with a more local and again EXCELLENT, instructor.
The course contains all the elements of the other agencies, but also has a lot of input in diving a unit in a branch environment.

I can see a time in the distant future when courses may be run in a branch, but not for a long, long time yet.

scribley
09-11-06, 12:29 PM
I'm heading off to Seattle in December to do a cross-over course to the COPIS Meg. I get to stay for free in the instructors house with the other students and meals are cooked for me every night for $5 a meal.
Silent Scuba Home (http://www.silentscuba.com)
I can highly reccommend them as I did my MOD 1 Inspo course with them.
Good dive sites too - I saw a 6-gill shark on one of my dives!

gibbon
09-11-06, 01:04 PM
I've just seen Meg MOD1 training advertised at £850, are ISC taking the piss or what? How can they justify this cost when you can be trained on other units such as Boris for £600?

Ian

As I understand it, Leon would like to personally train every Meg user at the ISC factory to ensure that only the best training is given.

Obviously this is not a feasible business model, but by keeping a fixed price for everyone globally, he still gets a lot of people going to him for training which I am sure is more of a passion and out of concern for the saftey of divers than for the revenue that he makes from the courses. He also ensures that people providing Meg training are not bickering over saving a few pounds and hence putting at risk the quality of the training a student gets as a result.

All Meg instructors have now been (will have been very soon) to the ISC factory and have been trained/shown the Leon way of doing things, this will I am sure create the most consistent training possible.

I am sure Leon would rather put the cost up by another 500USD if he thought that it would save a single life in the future.

If you are thinking of getting a Meg Ian you would be able to do a cross over course and the standard MOD 1 course charge would not be an issue to you anyway.

Phoenix
09-11-06, 01:17 PM
If you are thinking of getting a Meg Ian you would be able to do a cross over course and the standard MOD 1 course charge would not be an issue to you anyway.

Nope, I'm not thinking of getting a Meg and I wouldn't do another MOD1 in any case, I already have 2 as it is and that's enough card collecting. I only raised the post as I'd seen a link to a dive shop's new website and the cost was quite prominent.

As regards fixing the price of the training, isn't that practise illegal here?

Ian

Mary
09-11-06, 01:28 PM
Just a little voice from the other part of the planet.


Hi Pete, I would never describe you as "a little voice"! anyway I agree with what you're saying. My mod1 and adv nitrox combined cost me about £600 (I think) with Tekstreme in Sharm 1:1. I had an excellent instructor who made me do skills which talking to friends others were not made to do on their courses. (although I may have hated him at the time :teeth: ).

What I don't understand is why the Meg course is £250 more the Inspo when both are 5 days long.

Janos
09-11-06, 03:05 PM
IMHO training should be on an hourly or daily rate. It shouldn't depend on the course. So a 5 day course should cost the same irrespective of the unit, or indeed whether it's OC or CCR.

I don't know why it doesn't. Is Leon loading the costs?

Janos

PW1664
09-11-06, 03:32 PM
Surely it's down to the Instructors/Businesses to decide what they charge.

If they think they can add more value than someone else and the punters buy, good luck to them....

Get it wrong though and they won't be very busy!

Angleseyskipper
09-11-06, 05:26 PM
inspo course is the same price now as it was 6 years ago how many people can say that about their wages on here.
Good luck to the guy ,if people are happy to pay 4 to 8 grand for a rebreather just for sport don't think he'll have much to worry about.

petemes
10-11-06, 12:21 AM
Hi Pete, I would never describe you as "a little voice"! anyway I agree with what you're saying. My mod1 and adv nitrox combined cost me about 600 (I think) with Tekstreme in Sharm 1:1. I had an excellent instructor who made me do skills which talking to friends others were not made to do on their courses. (although I may have hated him at the time :teeth: ).

What I don't understand is why the Meg course is 250 more the Inspo when both are 5 days long.

Hi Mary,

Great to hear from you again and it was great diving with you again.


Looking forward to your next NZ leg!!

Pete

petemes
10-11-06, 12:36 AM
IMHO training should be on an hourly or daily rate. It shouldn't depend on the course. So a 5 day course should cost the same irrespective of the unit, or indeed whether it's OC or CCR.

I don't know why it doesn't. Is Leon loading the costs?

Janos

Hi Janos,

Interesting theory. I guess it now beggs the quandry. Does your hourly rate go up for those instructors who have more experience?

At the end of the day if someone wanted to charge a million pounds for a breather course and someone paid him the money for it, good on him I say.

At these levels I would want and seek out the most experienced person for the job that would teach me things I did not know. For that I would be prepared to pay for that.

Anyone want to do an inspo course? I am veeeeeeeeery reasonable??????

Janos
10-11-06, 07:27 AM
Hi Janos,

Interesting theory. I guess it now beggs the quandry. Does your hourly rate go up for those instructors who have more experience?

At the end of the day if someone wanted to charge a million pounds for a breather course and someone paid him the money for it, good on him I say.

At these levels I would want and seek out the most experienced person for the job that would teach me things I did not know. For that I would be prepared to pay for that.

Anyone want to do an inspo course? I am veeeeeeeeery reasonable??????

Sorry, but you misunderstand me.

Obviously different instructors will have different rates, but I don't understand why an Inspo course should have a different daily rate to a KISS / Boris / Meg course with the same instructor.

Mix courses might be a little different as you need to consider expenses, but I can't see the reason in variation between an Inspo course and a Meg course.

Janos

Simon TW
10-11-06, 07:27 AM
It's great to be a diver isn't it? we get to do a course for £850 and moan about the cost. If we really think about it it's cheap.

To be an Inspiration instructor, you need to have been diving one and know what it's about. You also need to already be an instructor possibly already a tech instructor. To get to this stage you have invested heavy.

The Inspiration instructor course can be done with one of many instructor trainers in the UK and there is fair competition and if you shop around and haggle you will get it cheaper. In my opinion it's better not to do this and go to an instructor trainer who is well known by reputation.

To be a Meg instructor you would have probobly already been an Inspiration or other CCR instructor. You would have paid to do a Meg diver crossover course and you would have been doing quite a few hours on the Meg. Next you have to fly to Seattle and take the instructor course. Accomodation gases and of course fee's.

Then you fly back to the UK as one of a select few. You plan a course and the course standards state only two students per instructor. So if you are really lucky you get two students if not you have the guy who is really wanting to do the course and you don't want to let him down. So you do the course with one student, you have your Certified Assistant also diving CCR and you have your shore cover. In addition to gas costs, transport possible accomodation you have other small cost that all mount up.

5 Days later you have made £850 gross and you have to start paying out. When you work out how much you receive net maybe you think "well I enjoy doing it" or maybe you think "I could have had an open water course with 8 students each paying £300 and in pack it in to 3 days why did I bother with investing my time and money to become a CCR instructor?"

If you want to do the Meg mod 1 I suggest you contact Dave Cooper. He comes over from France and spends a week away from his family to teach this. He's a good instructor but don't expect a discount :) You can find him on here as Decodiver.

scu8astu
10-11-06, 03:41 PM
I've just seen Meg MOD1 training advertised at 850, are ISC taking the piss or what? How can they justify this cost when you can be trained on other units such as Boris for 600?

Ian

My Ian you really have got a bee in your bonnet over this hav'nt you .... as i said on swm , how can someone who paid 8250 for his unit be moaning about extra costs of training,


lots of love stu:embarassed:

scu8astu
10-11-06, 03:47 PM
or on another note ian do you think that u secretly want a meg but can't afford the course cause you spent all your money on that boris.:spliff: :unlove:

Mal Bridgeman
10-11-06, 04:06 PM
The course must be expensive because the RB itself is so cheap....available for only $1 :) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110054088859&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:UK:1)

Not sure it's a completely genuine sale though!!

Mal

Janos
10-11-06, 04:09 PM
Not sure it's a completely genuine sale though!!

I dunno. I often ebay stuff for a 1 starting bid and let them find their own value. Of course some people get their friends to bump up the price a bit but I wouldn't because that's against ebay policies.

Although, it does beg the question: why are you looking for rebreathers on ebay?

Janos

scu8astu
10-11-06, 04:09 PM
The course must be expensive because the RB itself is so cheap....available for only $1 :) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110054088859&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:UK:1)

Not sure it's a completely genuine sale though!!

Mal

Quick ian get this one, you'r be able to afford the course then:spam:

Mal Bridgeman
10-11-06, 04:12 PM
Although, it does beg the question: why are you looking for rebreathers on ebay?


Why not?
Mal

petemes
10-11-06, 04:53 PM
It's great to be a diver isn't it? we get to do a course for 850 and moan about the cost. If we really think about it it's cheap.

To be an Inspiration instructor, you need to have been diving one and know what it's about. You also need to already be an instructor possibly already a tech instructor. To get to this stage you have invested heavy.

The Inspiration instructor course can be done with one of many instructor trainers in the UK and there is fair competition and if you shop around and haggle you will get it cheaper. In my opinion it's better not to do this and go to an instructor trainer who is well known by reputation.

To be a Meg instructor you would have probobly already been an Inspiration or other CCR instructor. You would have paid to do a Meg diver crossover course and you would have been doing quite a few hours on the Meg. Next you have to fly to Seattle and take the instructor course. Accomodation gases and of course fee's.

Then you fly back to the UK as one of a select few. You plan a course and the course standards state only two students per instructor. So if you are really lucky you get two students if not you have the guy who is really wanting to do the course and you don't want to let him down. So you do the course with one student, you have your Certified Assistant also diving CCR and you have your shore cover. In addition to gas costs, transport possible accomodation you have other small cost that all mount up.

5 Days later you have made 850 gross and you have to start paying out. When you work out how much you receive net maybe you think "well I enjoy doing it" or maybe you think "I could have had an open water course with 8 students each paying 300 and in pack it in to 3 days why did I bother with investing my time and money to become a CCR instructor?"

If you want to do the Meg mod 1 I suggest you contact Dave Cooper. He comes over from France and spends a week away from his family to teach this. He's a good instructor but don't expect a discount :) You can find him on here as Decodiver.


Nicely put Simon.

Decodiver
13-11-06, 06:58 PM
Ian,

If you were doing a Meg Mod 1 you would, with your experience, be doing a crossover so the Mod 1 of £850 would not apply.

I charge £550 for a crossover and those that know me will tell you that you earn it, and have lots of fun.

KISS Instructor-wise, I also teach KISS as an IT and as Simon kindly stated above I come to the UK for 2 to 3 weeks a year to teach back to back CCR courses, next courses are in January/February '07 and there are spaces for Meg Mod 1,2 +3, Inspo Mod 1, 2 +3 and Inspo Instructor courses, KISS Mod 1,2+ 3 and KISS Instructor courses for those suitably qualified.

cheers,

Dave Cooper.