View Full Version : Why not these?



adam f
26-11-07, 06:47 PM
I've been recommended Agir Brokk Fin straps for my Jetfins, however what's wrong with these? Are the Agir ones really worth another 35 quid?

Beaver Easy Fin Commercial Spring (http://www.divingshop.com/Shop/ShopProductDetail.asp?fdShopProductId=3011)

BSH
26-11-07, 06:54 PM
Someone better than me will say if the Beaver ones are compliant or not. However the Agir ones are very similar to the Halcyon ones and are very good, as with all Agir stuff.

My guess is it's something to do with the extra rubber loop on the back - but what do I know.


I have a pair of Large Manta spring straps doing nothing if you want to offer me about £23 :)

Marky Mark
26-11-07, 06:56 PM
I only know one guy who uses the Beaver straps, he hasn't had any problems. Beaver kit does get a bit of bad press for being poor quality, can't really comment myself.

MM

endoman
26-11-07, 07:01 PM
Just use some bungee and some clear plastic to cover it. B+Q less than a fiver for the whole lot,

I put two cable ties on each side and they have been spot on.

No idea if that is DIR compliant though.

John_C
26-11-07, 07:03 PM
Ive had both types on my fins and never had a problem (commercial and the normal clip in types).

I have the commercial type on my Turtle fins and there just fine.

adam f
26-11-07, 08:44 PM
Thanks all...

So I guess what I'm saying is are the rubber Beaver type ones compliant or not - if not, why not!?

Cheers

Adam

1138
26-11-07, 08:56 PM
Someone better than me will say if the Beaver ones are compliant or not. However the Agir ones are very similar to the Halcyon ones and are very good, as with all Agir stuff.

My guess is it's something to do with the extra rubber loop on the back - but what do I know.Actually it's got more to do with the quality of the springs and metal fittings that Beaver use (not to mention the over-engineered rubber bit that really isn't neccessary) - it seems that their definition of 'marine-grade' differs greatly from everyone elses! Personally I'd rather spend the extra money and get a decent set of AGIR or Halcyon spring straps - at least you know they're gonna last! I've had a set of Halcyon spring straps on my Frogs for about four years and they're still going strong...

ratcliffe
26-11-07, 10:15 PM
Now this is a serious question here... I just don't see what is wrong with the normal rubbery fin straps myself. I don't see the point of the hassle of fitting these spring based straps, as I don't have any problems with the normal pull on straps.
I use the ND jetfin clonies with the heavy duty rubber straps, with the metal pin which lifts to adjust.

Am I missing the point here, as I really don't see these spring straps as being so much easier to use.

stevechesh
26-11-07, 10:30 PM
Am I missing the point here, as I really don't see these spring straps as being so much easier to use.

I think so.....it's not about the quality or the necessity....it's about spending £££££ on certain products. . . .

ratcliffe
26-11-07, 10:36 PM
No, the Beaver straps, and the Woz ones etc, are used by large chunks of the diving population, and some also use the Halcyon and Agir Brock ones as well. But I personally just have never found a need for any of the spring straps, which is what I meant.
I'm just interested in why so many divers of all qualifications consider these such a necessity.

Clare
26-11-07, 10:59 PM
They don't break, they snug up on your foot, they are easy to put on - even in the water - and once on and correctly adjusted when fitted you can forget about them for ever more.

I've dived off recreational boats in the carribean and the spring straps are what always get people asking questions - mainly 'where do I get some of those'.

Oh and btw - I see no problem with the Beaver ones - apart from the fact that most beaver stuff rusts eventually.

Don't forget to put line in them though.... ;)

4823
26-11-07, 11:08 PM
Adam

I recently bought the Halcyon ones. The AGIR ones I couldn't be bothered with (the screw and ensuring the hole was big enough etc).

Initially I wasn't entirely happy (I'm still not completely) because the sleeving does not cover the entire spring (the reason for the sleeving is to protect against the spring getting caught in line).

I think if I had the choice to buy again I'd go for the V4tec ones at niknaks because the shield appears to cover the entire length of the spring......other than that....the Halcyon ones are fine....and cheaper than the AGIR

1373
27-11-07, 01:02 AM
I'm just interested in why so many divers of all qualifications consider these such a necessity.

In my case i'll first say i had my fins for 5 years, several hundred dives and not had a single strap break on a dive, pre dive or anywhere else. I replaced one when i noticed it getting a little worn as part of normal kit maintenance so my move to spring straps wasn't for that.

For me at least i find them easier to put on and take off than existing ones (Mares so have the push down lock clip thing), especially on a RIB. Teaching abroad i did a lot of beach diving with some surge and to just pull them on, no need to tighten a strap or push a lock was great.
Also i dont need to tighten or adjust the strap on a dive or when going from wetsuit to drysuit boots.

Thats my decision and feeling anyway.

The Beaver straps for some odd reason have a plastic connector between the spring part and fin mounted part and im not sure why - is this maybe why DIR dont like them as a possible failiure point?

BSH
27-11-07, 06:39 AM
Adam

The AGIR ones I couldn't be bothered with (the screw and ensuring the hole was big enough etc).



Just realised I have the Agir ones :) they were a bit tricky but I got there in the end.

tonhil
27-11-07, 02:02 PM
I'm just interested in why so many divers of all qualifications consider these such a necessity.

They look cool. They work well.

I have had rubber straps break on me exactly nonce but it would be a pain if it did happen and with proper spring ones it will not happen.

DIR circles used to circulate a catalogue number (I have long lost it)for the company McMaster Carr who could then provide you with ideal springs for about USD10 which could then be attached. That is good value if you are not in diving to clear out any extra cash that you have.

adam f
27-11-07, 02:12 PM
I went for the Beaver style in the end. I took the rubber bracket and faff off and have replaced with black nylon sleave like the Halycon ones. Job done.

Thanks all for your help.

Regards

1138
27-11-07, 02:36 PM
I went for the Beaver style in the end. I took the rubber bracket and faff off and have replaced with black nylon sleave like the Halycon ones. Job done.

Thanks all for your help.

RegardsSounds like a good modification to make. Nice one! :)

Darren555
27-11-07, 05:03 PM
I think spring straps are probably the single best bit of kit I have bought or used for all the reasons that Clare gives.
They are just faff free :)

adam f
27-11-07, 05:09 PM
Sounds like a good modification to make.


Thanks. If anyone is interested they now look like this:
http://www.pbsbac.co.uk/photoalbum/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSC01779.JPG

All for £15 - god, I'm so tight!!!

howellsn
27-11-07, 06:19 PM
Spring-Straps.com (http://www.spring-straps.com/)

Think the blokes name is scott (can't remember) - good quality.

lloydwatkin
27-11-07, 09:00 PM
I have a pair of Woz Spring straps on my scubapro twin jets (the split ones) I now have scubapro jets with crappy awkward rubber straps. Now Woz has stopped doing springs or he'd have my cash right now :( Wondering whether to put the Woz ones on my jets and sell the twins with the promise I'll buy whatever size springs the new owner needs.

Springs are definately worth it, just for the ease of getting them on and off :)

Oh and they look cool! Which at the end of the day is what its all about (I mean that seriously too).

Clare
28-11-07, 08:07 AM
Thanks. If anyone is interested they now look like this:
http://www.pbsbac.co.uk/photoalbum/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSC01779.JPG

All for £15 - god, I'm so tight!!!

Looks very good.

I realise that the cover over the end of the spring is plastic - but can you tell me what happens inside it - are all the connecting parts metal and is there any line tied through the spring?

adam f
28-11-07, 06:50 PM
Hi Claire,

They are actually very simple items once you remove the over complicated rubber boot ratainer. 1 spring, 2 plastic retainers and 2 'C' clips.

The spring runs into the plastic collar into a socket where it is intersected by the 'C' clip which passes at 90deg through the collar and through the spring. So even if the plastic breaks (it is softish, not brittle so little chance i'd guess) the spring is still retained.

There is no cave line on these, but I added some whilst I had them apart.

As for the springs, they are 316 S/steel - which is rust proof unless scratched, then all 316 will rust.

HTH

Adam

Prometheus
28-11-07, 08:18 PM
:)









Stainless Steels - Stainless 316 Properties, Fabrication and Applications, Supplier Data by Aalco

Topics Covered
Background

316 Stainless Steel

316L Stainless Steel

316Ti and 316H Stainless Steels

Background
Stainless steel types 1.4401 and 1.4404 are also known as grades 316 and 3164L respectively. Grade 316 is an austenitic grade second only to 304 in commercial importance.

316 Stainless Steel
316 stainless steel contains an addition of molybdenum that gives it improved corrosion resistance. This is particularly apparent for pitting and crevice corrosion in chloride environments.

316L Stainless Steel
316L, the low carbon version of 316 stainless steel, is immune to grain boundary carbide precipitation (sensitisation). This makes it suited to use in heavy gauge (over about 6mm) welded components.

316Ti and 316H Stainless Steels
For elevated temperature applications the high carbon variant, 316H stainless steel and the stabilised grade 316Ti stainless steel should be employed.

The austenitic structure of 316 stainless steel gives excellent toughness, even at cryogenic temperatures.

ASTM A240/A240M
Property data given in this document is typical for flat rolled products covered by ASTM A240/A240M. ASTM, EN or other standards may cover products sold by Aalco. It is reasonable to expect specifications in these standards to be similar but not necessarily identical to those given in this datasheet.

Corrosion Resistance
Grade 316 has excellent corrosion resistance when exposed to a range of corrosive environments and media. It is usually regarded as “marine grade” stainless steel but is not resistant to warm sea water. Warm chloride environments can cause pitting and crevice corrosion. Grade 316 is also subject to stress corrosion cracking above around 60°C.

Heat Resistance
316 has good resistance to oxidation in intermittent service to 870°C and in continuous service to 925°C. However, continuous use at 425-860°C is not recommended if corrosion resistance in water is required. In this instance 316L is recommended due to its resistance to carbide precipitation.

Where high strength is required at temperatures above 500°C, grade 316H is recommended.

Fabrication
Fabrication of all stainless steels should be done only with tools dedicated to stainless steel materials. Tooling and work surfaces must be thoroughly cleaned before use. These precautions are necessary to avoid cross contamination of stainless steel by easily corroded metals that may discolour the surface of the fabricated product.



Cold Working
Grade 316 is readily brake or roll formed into a variety of parts. It is also suited to stamping, heading and drawing but post work annealing is recommended to relieve internal stresses.

Cold working will increase both strength and hardness of 316 stainless steel.

Hot Working
All common hot working processes can be performed on 316 stainless steel. Hot working should be avoided below 927°C. The ideal temperature range for hot working is 1149-1260°C. Post-work annealing is recommended to ensure optimum corrosion resistance.

Heat Treatment
316 stainless steel cannot be hardened by heat treatment.

Solution treatment or annealing can be done by rapid cooling after heating to 1010-1120°C.

Machinability
316 stainless steel has good machinability. Machining can be enhanced using the following rules:

· Cutting edges must be kept sharp. Dull edges cause excess work hardening.

· Cuts should be light but deep enough to prevent work hardening by riding on the surface of the material.

· Chip breakers should be employed to assist in ensuring swarf remains clear of the work

· Low thermal conductivity of austenitic alloys results in heat concentrating at the cutting edges. This means coolants and lubricants are necessary and must be used in large quantities.

Welding
Fusion welding performance for 316 stainless steel is excellent both with and without fillers. Recommended filler rods and electrodes for 316 and 316L are the same as the base metal, 316 and 316L respectively. Heavy welded sections may require post-weld annealing. Grade 316Ti may be used as an alternative to 316 in heavy section welds.

Oxyacetylene welding has not been found to be successful for joining of 316 stainless steel.

pieater
29-11-07, 01:55 PM
As for the springs, they are 316 S/steel - which is rust proof unless scratched, then all 316 will rust.



Oh no it won't. Proper 316 is intrinsically corrosion resistant. The only things that will rust when scratched are plated or coated materials.

adam f
29-11-07, 03:29 PM
Hmmm, well the rails on my boat are 316 and when they get a ding they rust - when polished out they are fine.

I'm not an expert though - but I know 100% that it is 316.

trakrat
06-12-07, 01:58 PM
I've been recommended Agir Brokk Fin straps for my Jetfins, however what's wrong with these? Are the Agir ones really worth another 35 quid?

Beaver Easy Fin Commercial Spring (http://www.divingshop.com/Shop/ShopProductDetail.asp?fdShopProductId=3011)
my mate got the beaver type and has had no problems with them and yes the are compatable with jets just bought a set my self and they're easier than the agir ones to get your fin on but the mounting is nowhere near as strong as the agir type as its just a bit of wire ! but i'm gonna give em a go!
find em on ebay for around 16 quid

1138
06-12-07, 02:54 PM
my mate got the beaver type and has had no problems with them and yes the are compatable with jets just bought a set my self and they're easier than the agir ones to get your fin on but the mounting is nowhere near as strong as the agir type as its just a bit of wire ! but i'm gonna give em a go!
find em on ebay for around 16 quid...find 'em in just about any dive shop for £16 - that's normal retail price! ;)

You're right, though - for that sort of money they are a total no brainer!

Finless
06-12-07, 03:25 PM
No, the Beaver straps, and the Woz ones etc, are used by large chunks of the diving population, and some also use the Halcyon and Agir Brock ones as well. But I personally just have never found a need for any of the spring straps, which is what I meant.
I'm just interested in why so many divers of all qualifications consider these such a necessity.

Over the years I have broken several straps on both my Mares and Scubapro fins. Only once was I surprised as the rubber still looked good.

I think the main DIR beef about the rubber fin straps however is that the 'buckles/clip' are an entanglement hazard. I can see their POV as any line running down the side of your leg as you are finning is odds on going to pass over your ankle.

Having said that, I have seen lots of spring straps where the coiled spring is exposed where the plastic cover isn't long enough and that, to my mind, is an entanglement hazard as well (perhaps more difficult to get snagged in the first place).

Finless
06-12-07, 03:27 PM
Remember the spring heel straps come in diff sizes! :)