View Full Version : Long hose question



ShinyD
03-04-08, 07:17 PM
Ok. I hope this doesn't prove to be as contentious as my last question involving wings! Bear with me whilst I explain where the question comes from...

I have a long hose to go with the twinset and will be instructed in the correct use and deployment of it before pressing it into action, but I have a query that was brought to light the other night in the pub club meeting.

Again, it was on the back of the rescue scenario we'd done in the pool, and it was stated that in an OOA situation the donator wanted the OOA diver as close to him as possible 'as it was his [the donators] air and he wanted full control over what happened to it'. Basically the concern brought up was the OOA diver grabbing the Octo, stuffing it in their mouth and holding it there whilst bolting for the surface. It was also said that they wanted to be able to monitor the OOA diver via eye contact on the ascent.

Now, to a relatively inexperienced diver like myself this makes sense, other than there isn't enough hose length to keep a panicking diver at arms length comfortably should the situation require it.

My concern about a long hose is that suddenly you have this OOA diver up to 7 feet away and able to take what actions they like, effectively out of your control radius and easily out of eye contact.

I understand the long hose use in cave or wreck situations, but I'd like to hear the definitive argument for it's use in open water please?

MarkP
03-04-08, 07:21 PM
...It was also said that they wanted to be able to monitor the OOA diver via eye contact on the ascent.

Now, to a relatively inexperienced diver like myself this makes sense, other than there isn't enough hose length to keep a panicking diver at arms length comfortably should the situation require it.

That's about it. I've done it for real on a few occasions, once with a "standard" set up, once with me on and Auto Air and once deploying a long hose.

Guess which was the easiest, by a country mile.

SilvaFish
03-04-08, 07:22 PM
Take hose with right hand and pull if the OOA diver gets a bit greedy! No honestly, no matter what length of hose, I wouldn't have thought that you don't want OOA diver to be more than an arm's length away in open water situations. (Obviously if in a wreck or cave, and the divers need to go single file, then that's different, but have never done that myself or got the training. Phew, arse covered.)

johnkendall
03-04-08, 07:45 PM
Ok. I hope this doesn't prove to be as contentious as my last question involving wings! Bear with me whilst I explain where the question comes from...

I have a long hose to go with the twinset and will be instructed in the correct use and deployment of it before pressing it into action, but I have a query that was brought to light the other night in the pub club meeting.

Again, it was on the back of the rescue scenario we'd done in the pool, and it was stated that in an OOA situation the donator wanted the OOA diver as close to him as possible 'as it was his [the donators] air and he wanted full control over what happened to it'. Basically the concern brought up was the OOA diver grabbing the Octo, stuffing it in their mouth and holding it there whilst bolting for the surface. It was also said that they wanted to be able to monitor the OOA diver via eye contact on the ascent.

Now, to a relatively inexperienced diver like myself this makes sense, other than there isn't enough hose length to keep a panicking diver at arms length comfortably should the situation require it.

My concern about a long hose is that suddenly you have this OOA diver up to 7 feet away and able to take what actions they like, effectively out of your control radius and easily out of eye contact.

I understand the long hose use in cave or wreck situations, but I'd like to hear the definitive argument for it's use in open water please?

Just because you have a 7' hose doesn't mean the OOA diver has to be 7' away. You can still hold onto their BC/Harness to maintain control. Generally someone who is panicked and out of gas is going to be far more concerned about getting a reg and breathing than anything else, This should give you a few seconds to get a good hold, and take control of the situation.

HTH

John

ShinyD
03-04-08, 07:56 PM
Thanks for the reply John, but I have to confess to being a little more confused now. Doesn't the fact that you have the OOA diver within arms reach mean that you have a 7' hose loose and ready to entangle arms/legs and make things worse?

I'm not trying to be provocative in the slightest here, just trying to understand something that doesn't make sense to me in the DIR 'simple and streamlined' approach. As I say, it makes perfect sense in a cave or wreck situation, but I just can't see how it can fit with the general DIR ethos in open water.

IanDennis
03-04-08, 08:00 PM
Dave

Your on a roll now aren't you:)

Like John said once you have donated then you don't have 7ft immediately, the balance of the hose has to be deployed from under the light, bungee, harness- where the rest of the hose is stowed and can be deployed from to deal with the emergency. With any long hose drill or depolyment then there is a natural pause whilst both donor and receiver get sorted out. This gives an opportunity to establish contact if required, which for a panicked diver may be required.

The beauty of a long hose is that you have the space to move about and deal with things such as DSMBs without being in each other's way but whilst still maintaining visual contact. The easiest way to demonstrate this is to carry out an ascent on a standard octopus then on a long hose and compare the two against one another. Most people agree that its far more comfortable on the long hose and the space to move about is a huge advantages. There are a variety of ways that a hose of this length can be stowed - the important thing being that it can be deployed easily and is not hindered by other equipment. Personally I prefer a Hogarthian wrap but other methods can be used- I find the Hog wrap easier to practise with and to enable ease of restowing.

Most technical agencies encourage donation from the mouth for long hose deployment. :) - not doubt somebody will be along in a minute re the disadvantages of donation from the mouth- its been done to death before :)

Again the best way is to try it and see what works for you, under the direction of an instructor

Regards

Ian

deepestandy
03-04-08, 08:01 PM
Just because you have a 7' hose doesn't mean the OOA diver has to be 7' away. You can still hold onto their BC/Harness to maintain control. Generally someone who is panicked and out of gas is going to be far more concerned about getting a reg and breathing than anything else, This should give you a few seconds to get a good hold, and take control of the situation.

Also, given the fact that they have a source of gas in their mouth (your long hose), they now have plenty of room to calm down and compose themselves. I cant help but think on a shorter 'octopus' controlling buoyancy ascent rates and stops would be a bit cramped and confusing. The long hose also makes it much easier fro a OOG diver/donating diver pair to effectively deploy a DSMB.

Andy

ShinyD
03-04-08, 08:39 PM
Dave

Your on a roll now aren't you:)



Heh - sorry Ian. As we approach the time to get back into the water I just want to understand the pros and cons of what we're adopting. As I've said, we will be gtting more instruciton on both long hose and twinset shutdown drills, but I like to understand as much as I can about the theory before getting to the practical aspects.

I'm not one to blindly pick up a piece of kit and use it without understanding - as far as I can - why it's better or worse than the next piece of kit. Obviously I can only ask what occurs to me, which is why the question about OPH removal didn't appear until after trying it...it just didn't occur!

Thanks all for the replies :)

IanDennis
03-04-08, 09:03 PM
Dave

A competant technical instructor will be able to run through this with you.

There are many different articles that have been written about the long hoses and its benefits. If you search Hogarthian on the web then you should find many different reference points as to the theory and practice of using it.

Good luck

Ian

The Penguin
03-04-08, 10:00 PM
Have a look here (http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/longhose.htm) and here (http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/longhorror.htm).

This is what convinced me to use a long hose. Mine is 5', plenty long enough for open-water gas sharing and a handy size for RHIB diving.

Steve Summers
03-04-08, 10:08 PM
Most technical agencies encourage donation from the mouth for long hose deployment. :) - not doubt somebody will be along in a minute re the disadvantages of donation from the mouth- its been done to death before :)

Not from me, the 2 times I have been in the situation of an OOA buddy despite being shown where the AAS was, they both ripped the reg from my mouth [not at the same time obviously ;)] it was then I realised that it was best to assume that would happen and configure my kit accordingly, it was no fun trying to find an occy' with someone that close.

Safe diving,
Steve

Arfie
03-04-08, 10:26 PM
I've been OOA once and my buddy was on a standard hose, I took the AAS and it all went quite relaxed and as we were both trained to do by PADI.

I now dive with Endoman who has adopted the long hose (7' I think) and having done it for real with a standard hose and been relaxed I can see that being relaxed but having a bit more hose would be a benefit.

Not sure how things would go if I was scared shitless and panicing though, it'd be interesting to see if there is a reason to be concerned.

Arfie

1138
03-04-08, 11:26 PM
Have a look here (http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/longhose.htm) and here (http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/longhorror.htm). Generally some good info on there but the first page does have a real screamer on it.

Pop quiz, folks - what's wrong with this diagram? It's supposed to depict two divers (one of which has gone OOG) swimming out of a wreck through a confined space.

http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/longpassage.gif

No one who is either cave-trained or DIR is allowed to answer! ;)

Also, why does he have his backup routed *under* his arm if he's using a long hose?! How's he supposed to get that in his gob?!

http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/necklace.jpg

Diving Dude
03-04-08, 11:32 PM
Pop quiz, folks - what's wrong with this diagram?

The second diver's head has become detached. :D

What do l win?

broady
03-04-08, 11:33 PM
Donating diver should take up position No2 ?

G

.

Garf
04-04-08, 05:38 AM
Broady is correct, the out of gas diver should be at the front.

Prometheus
04-04-08, 06:36 AM
Broady is correct, the out of gas diver should be at the front.

Ah, but they may be back kicking out of a confined space?.:angel:

Ding Dang Doo
04-04-08, 06:37 AM
Just to put something else into the mixing pot...

I use a long primary hose on my set up. My main cylinder is a 15l, and I side sling a 3l pony.

My reasoning behind this is that in another diver diver being in an OOA situation, I can donate (or have my primary taken!), whilst I am in control of my secondary and redundant air source. The long hose excess is loosely bungeed to the side of my 15l, and my secondary hose and reg bungeed to my side slung.

It also gives me the option to hand over my secondary air source, if I feel it is required. I am in control of this.

It's the end of the dive, if having to make decisions like this IMO anyway.

Pete

chrisch
04-04-08, 08:24 AM
For open water diving a 1.5m hose is fine and to some extent solves the issue. If you are doing any exercises with BSAC (you said dive club) primary donation cannot be taught (though it is not banned) and so this can make things difficult across the team.

Personally I would try both the 1.5m and the 2m with a friend and get them to "panic" a little. See how you get on. The 1.5 is stowed under the arm so it is very like a standard octo if you want it to be.

The idea of primary donation and long hose diving is that the OOG diver asks for the reg (just like the proper BSAC training) and is given it (unlike the new DTP) This implies a lack of panic.

The issue is when another diver appears from nowhere and grabs the reg in your mouth. This, I'm told, can happen when in a big group of inexperienced divers. Not a situation I am in often TBH. Long hose use is Hogarthian and not just DIR. DIR protocols would suggest the other diver not panicking. BSAC encourage long hose octopus and frown on primary donation so you need a kind of work around. The usual one is breathe the backup reg and use the primary as octo. This is fine unless you have a diver grab the reg from your mouth. They are going to get nowhere with a short hose :)

The upshot therefore is you need to adapt your rig slightly to accommodate the team you are in. A good pre-dive brief and buddy check also helps a lot of course.

Chris

endoman
04-04-08, 08:28 AM
I've been OOA once and my buddy was on a standard hose, I took the AAS and it all went quite relaxed and as we were both trained to do by PADI.

I now dive with Endoman who has adopted the long hose (7' I think) and having done it for real with a standard hose and been relaxed I can see that being relaxed but having a bit more hose would be a benefit.

Not sure how things would go if I was scared shitless and panicing though, it'd be interesting to see if there is a reason to be concerned.

Arfie

That's why we are going to do some drills next time we dive.

Janos
04-04-08, 08:36 AM
For open water diving a 1.5m hose is fine and to some extent solves the issue. If you are doing any exercises with BSAC (you said dive club) primary donation cannot be taught (though it is not banned) and so this can make things difficult across the team.

Just a word on the official line, but HQ told me that primary donation should not be taught to inexperienced divers. I think people undergoing Ocean and Sports Diver training fall under this category, whereas Dive Leaders are 'experienced'. Qualified Sports Divers I think it depends on the individual.

We had a good chat about primary donation on my BSAC trimix instructor course, and with the BSAC Instructor Trainers we had a good debate about primary donatrion (one Instructor Trainer very much for, one Instructor Trainer very much anti.)

---

Going back to the Original Post. There are two separate issues - the long hose and primary donation.

I used to have a 2m hose and it was great. When I needed to put someone on it (a trainee was running low and panicking) I was able to maintain a firm grip, eye contact, and make it to the surface in a controlled way. The extra hose did not hinder this at all.

7ft is useful if you are ever going to need to be in single file. Do you ever go inside a wreck (even just a little bit?).

Janos

Tankbanger
04-04-08, 08:49 AM
Ok , this probably will sound dumb, but do you really want a panicked ooa diver leading you out of a wreck/cave??

Not qualified just curious, or is it better to be able to keep an eye on him, so he can't sneak up and mess with from behind (cue the dude)

MartyC
04-04-08, 09:10 AM
There are loads of variables you can add in to this but the upshot is if they are infront of you they wont swim off without the air source, but can get through confined spaces without you both jamming the opening :)

PBrown
04-04-08, 11:15 AM
As somebody who has wasted money on this, a 2m hose is a fraction too short, it should be a 2.1m (7 foot) hose. The extra 10cm does make a difference if you are hog wrapping, it lets you turn your head fully to the left.

cheers,
Paul

Tankbanger
04-04-08, 11:25 AM
Ah, I see, thanks for info Marty.

endoman
04-04-08, 11:28 AM
As somebody who has wasted money on this, a 2m hose is a fraction too short, it should be a 2.1m (7 foot) hose. The extra 10cm does make a difference if you are hog wrapping, it lets you turn your head fully to the left.

cheers,
Paul

won't this depend somewhat on your circumference? There are some who a seven foot hose would be enormous on, and others that even that may be too short.

nigelH
04-04-08, 11:38 AM
Ok. I hope this doesn't prove to be as contentious as my last question involving wings! Bear with me whilst I explain where the question comes from...The whole problem with the question is that it assumes you have neglected RULE ONE.

Rule one is 'Don't dive with Strokes'.

From then on the assumption is built in that your buddy is to be trusted.

Using a long hose with novice is using it as a fashion accessory. It is the wrong equipment at the wrong time in the wrong place. I have a nice 12L single on a BCD with a pony for diving with newbies. They watch me and copy me. Monkey see, monkey do. Diving my wonderful rebreather would be totally unfair and unhelpful. Ditto a long hose.

Mal Bridgeman
04-04-08, 04:25 PM
Ok , this probably will sound dumb, but do you really want a panicked ooa diver leading you out of a wreck/cave??

Not qualified just curious, or is it better to be able to keep an eye on him, so he can't sneak up and mess with from behind (cue the dude)

Panic should only be a short lived thing....when the gas source is re-established the panic should subside....then when it has then you are in a position to move off. In a team of three, the third team member who is not donating or receiving, leads out, followed by the OOG diver, followed by the donor who is in touch contact with the OOG diver.

In monitoing the gas usage you may decide to transfer the OOG diver onto No 1s long hose and re-order as appropriate ... but the "weakened" diver is always in the middle or in front.

HTH
Mal

Tankbanger
04-04-08, 04:49 PM
Panic should only be a short lived thing....when the gas source is re-established the panic should subside....then when it has then you are in a position to move off. In a team of three, the third team member who is not donating or receiving, leads out, followed by the OOG diver, followed by the donor who is in touch contact with the OOG diver.

In monitoing the gas usage you may decide to transfer the OOG diver onto No 1s long hose and re-order as appropriate ... but the "weakened" diver is always in the middle or in front.

HTH
Mal


Cheers Mal

NotDeadYet
04-04-08, 05:30 PM
Panic should only be a short lived thing....when the gas source is re-established the panic should subside....

Even if it doesn't the last thing you want is someone who isn't happy with nothing to breathe behind you where you can't see them.

TerryH
04-04-08, 05:43 PM
Even if it doesn't the last thing you want is someone who isn't happy with nothing to breathe behind you where you can't see them.

Its an absolutely known that in any stress situation people want
anybody else to make the decision. Surely sticking someone in front means
that he/she is leading and not exactly going to be A1 at doing it.

The other point is that the first rule of any rescue is self-preservation.
You are not going to be much help if you come a cropper as well.

So again being behind the person who is out of gas, potentialy pretty
stressed and who is making leading decisions etc. doesnt sound like much
of a good plan to me.

I can see how middle would work, but not up front.

Mal Bridgeman
04-04-08, 06:04 PM
Its an absolutely known that in any stress situation people want
anybody else to make the decision. Surely sticking someone in front means
that he/she is leading and not exactly going to be A1 at doing it.

The other point is that the first rule of any rescue is self-preservation.
You are not going to be much help if you come a cropper as well.

So again being behind the person who is out of gas, potentialy pretty
stressed and who is making leading decisions etc. doesnt sound like much
of a good plan to me.

I can see how middle would work, but not up front.

Terry you are perhaps reading too much into the "leading" piece. Firstly they lost their gas not their brain so they ought to function near normally ....as a donor you did not donate your brain so you still have a job to do as well ..in touch contact you are aslo guiding them home.... and in these cases you would probably be following a line anyway?
Mal

TerryH
04-04-08, 09:45 PM
Terry you are perhaps reading too much into the "leading" piece. Firstly they lost their gas not their brain so they ought to function near normally ....as a donor you did not donate your brain so you still have a job to do as well ..in touch contact you are aslo guiding them home.... and in these cases you would probably be following a line anyway?
Mal


Not sure of your logic there Mal. If there wasnt an issue then it shoudnt
make ANY difference as to the positions. The very fact that you actually
specify a pecking order, tends to lend weight to the possibility that things
may change. Cant have it both ways.

iainmsmith
04-04-08, 10:54 PM
Rule one is 'Don't dive with Strokes'.

From then on the assumption is built in that your buddy is to be trusted

Using a long hose with novice is using it as a fashion accessory. It is the wrong equipment at the wrong time in the wrong place. I have a nice 12L single on a BCD with a pony for diving with newbies. They watch me and copy me. Monkey see, monkey do. Diving my wonderful rebreather would be totally unfair and unhelpful. Ditto a long hose.

Got to disagree with you Nigel.

Firstly, "newbie" does not equal "stroke".

Secondly, if I'm in the water with an inexperienced buddy, why on earth would I sacrifice the practiced habit, speed and reliability of me donating my primary to them if they get into trouble. Ideally, I'd like them to give me the same courtesy, but on the sort of dive that I would do with a newbie, I'm pretty confident of my ability to sort myself out. Especially as I'll almost certainly be in a twinset.

A long hose lets one deal with an OOA situation without the horrible, tight, cramped feeling one gets with standard length hoses. As has been pointed out, you don't have to give the recipient the full 7' straight off, but the extra freedom adds significant comfort to the situation, irrespective of what else one can do with it.

As you know, I used to teach for a club where long hoses were actively encouraged and, I belive, are still used from day 1, albeit with the limitations of BSAC's limitations on not teaching primary donation. It works...

As for "monkey see, monkey do", I'd far rather encourage a newbie to go for long hose, primary donate and proper dive planning and execution than wasting money on a pony. Were you on the UKRS boat where I lifted someone out of 30m? Remember his peak SAC?

I.

iainmsmith
04-04-08, 11:05 PM
Not sure of your logic there Mal. If there wasnt an issue then it shoudnt
make ANY difference as to the positions. The very fact that you actually
specify a pecking order, tends to lend weight to the possibility that things
may change. Cant have it both ways.

Terry,

The reason the OOA diver goes in front is to avoid the long hose getting accidentally pulled out. There's no more to it than that.

If the OOA diver is behind and the donor swims ahead, the donated reg could get pulled out without the recipient knowing. The fact that we are talking one-ahead-of-the-other implies a restriction (or silt-out) , in other words, the lead diver cannot easily turn round to sort out the recipient. Hence they go in front where they are not going to outswim their breathing source.

Also, if you're in that sort of situation for more than the shortest possible time, you ought to be there with people trained for that situation, ie, cave divers. This implies a guideline - ie follow the white line home - not to mention training.

If you're not in the situation requiring cave training, you shouldn't be in a situation where extended linear exits are required. You can go side-by-side most of the time (where the donor is holding onto the recipient's elbow, guiding them), or even face-to-face on an ascent (not necessarily holding onto each other, provided both are sufficiently calm to be controlling their own buoyancy).

If you're worried about decision making, how much does it take to signal "That way. Go."? Or, in OW, "Up"?

Iain

TerryH
04-04-08, 11:20 PM
Yep I dont disagree with any of that, but it really does depend on the state
of the diver.

What you are talking about about is an assist and that means both divers
working together for a common aim.

It only becomes a bit iffy when it turns into a rescue and as you say, let's
hope that shoudnt be an issue with such trained divers.

In the end it comes down to an assessment of risk and somebody has done
the math that there is a greater chance of the reg being pulled out, then
there is the OOG diver freaking out because of the task loading of leading in
a stressed state.

Let's hope they are right.

Al_Star
05-04-08, 09:12 AM
Yep I dont disagree with any of that, but it really does depend on the state of the diver.

What you are talking about about is an assist and that means both divers
working together for a common aim.

It only becomes a bit iffy when it turns into a rescue and as you say, let's
hope that shoudnt be an issue with such trained divers.

In the end it comes down to an assessment of risk and somebody has done
the math that there is a greater chance of the reg being pulled out, then
there is the OOG diver freaking out because of the task loading of leading in
a stressed state.

Let's hope they are right.

As Iain points out a protracted exit where the OOG diver has to lead should only apply if you are penetrating a wreck, in a cave or lining off from a shot where you HAVE to ascend up the shotline. All three are 1/3's dives essentially using a guideline and are more involved than a standard open water bimble where everyone just bags off and ascends.

So we have divers swimming in single file because they are in a restriction, on a thirds dive with essentially an overhead (must return to shot is pretty much that requirement). If they are experienced enough for that sort of dive they should be able to follow the guideline. And the donating diver doesn't switch off their brain they can get into touch contact with the OOG diver and help guide them.

If however it is an open water dive then they just ascend face to face, no need to swim single file. If they have to work their way back to the start and it's not restricted then you can swim side by side.

Essentially for a couple of decades all the cave agencies have been teaching this. It's very much been tried and tested and is less stressful for the OOG diver than trying to keep up with their gas supply as it swims away from them!

Cheers
Al