View Full Version : OMS or flapping wing!



11800
29-04-08, 08:42 PM
Cant get my head around why a wing wrapping around your tanks creating a pinch point when you come into contact with a sharp or even blunt surface could be better and safer than an OMS type wing safely out of the way when empty and using dry suit for buoyancy control!
Been watching DIR dvd!
Easy on me!
Only new diver!

trakrat
29-04-08, 08:50 PM
Cant get my head around why a wing flapping around your tanks creating a pinch point when you come into contact with a sharp or even blunt surface could be better and safer than an OMS type wing safely out of the way when empty and using dry suit for boyancy control!
Been watching DIR dvd!
Easy on me!
Only new diver!
i'm with you i've got the oms and think its great
but the dir guys will tell you it has more chance of snaging on things but hey if i can't snap a rubber bugee cord then i wouldn't be able to lift the thing on to my back
a lot the things they say makes perfect sense but if its not halcyon its not dir
buy what you feel comfortable with your the diving in it

Sparky750
29-04-08, 08:52 PM
I've always wondered the same thing i love my CD TDB bungied wing:teeth:

dry suit diver
29-04-08, 08:54 PM
me too and chasey posted some pics illustrating the point.


I feel there may be a need for popcorn later on in this thread:)

Bantam
29-04-08, 08:55 PM
It's two things;

a) you have to remember where DIR evolved - the caves of Florida, where you'd normally dive with a semi-dry on. So your wing is your primary bouyancy. If you have a hole in your wing, the bungee will deflate it faster by pushing the air out.

b) It is an increased snag hazard. All the DIR kit is streamlined to remove all snag hazards.

The thing to remember when analysing the DIR system is what it's being used for - cave and wreck penetration was the overriding factor in the kit design.

I still have the bungee on my OMS wing BTW, just because I think it's neater. But I'm not a DIR diver so it doesn't count (yet).

trakrat
29-04-08, 08:56 PM
yeah you just know its going to get interesting

Sparky750
29-04-08, 09:08 PM
I If you have a hole in your wing, the bungee will deflate it faster by pushing the air out.


Has that actually been tested because surely water pressure acting on the wing would be far greater than anything the bungie does as for the snag hazard i don't buy it surely first stages with hoses or stage bottles pose more of a risk than some 2mm bungie? :popcorn: :teeth:

Clare
29-04-08, 09:10 PM
It's two things;

a) you have to remember where DIR evolved - the caves of Florida, where you'd normally dive with a semi-dry on. So your wing is your primary buoyancy. If you have a hole in your wing, the bungee will deflate it faster by pushing the air out.

b) It is an increased snag hazard. All the DIR kit is streamlined to remove all snag hazards.

The thing to remember when analyzing the DIR system is what it's being used for - cave and wreck penetration was the overriding factor in the kit design.

I still have the bungee on my OMS wing BTW, just because I think it's neater. But I'm not a DIR diver so it doesn't count (yet).

Thank you Bantam - but it's neither of those things. I can't remember when I last saw a DIR diver in Florida in a semi dry suit. We certainly don't permit them on cave courses there as exposures times are too long.

I love the fact that most UK wreck divers feel that they face much harder, tougher on kit, colder etc here than in caves in Florida. Face it, other face reasonably difficult conditions at times - I've holed my drysuit ten times in one trip to Florida when using my legs to stop me being blown out of the cave.

We wouldn't as the original poster suggest use a dry suit for buoyancy. If you do a dive using heavy back gas cylinders and lots of stages you simply cannot support this on a dry suit without becoming very unstable. Those who cry that they do this here already don't understand the meaning of heavy back gas cylinders - fabers are lightweight steels. Even if you can hold enough gas, this amount of gas moving around in your suit would be difficult if you had to go heads down in a wreck or cave.

A good sized wing should not be "flapping" around as you emotively suggest. Mark did post a picture some time back of an inappropriately sized wing. 55lb wings were not designed for Faber tanks and looking at pictures like that tells us why.

Here is a picture of a correctly sized wing - it's not that big a deal is it?

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060187.jpg

I'm not going to go into it any more than that - but as this is the DIR forum I guess you wanted a DIR answer rather than merely seek to kick off Friday three days early.

Bantam
29-04-08, 09:11 PM
Has that actually been tested because surely water pressure acting on the wing would be far greater than anything the bungie does as for the snag hazard i don't buy it surely first stages with hoses or stage bottles pose more of a risk than some 2mm bungie? :popcorn: :teeth:

I didn't say I agreed with the reasoning :D After all, I still have my bungie firmly on my wing.

However, I also know my OMS is bloody good as I tend to leave it inflated - a sort of positive pressure test - and it stays solid as a rock for weeks sometimes!

Mal Bridgeman
29-04-08, 09:20 PM
Has that actually been tested because surely water pressure acting on the wing would be far greater than anything the bungie does as for the snag hazard i don't buy it surely first stages with hoses or stage bottles pose more of a risk than some 2mm bungie? :popcorn: :teeth:

People have suggested this before but only gas below a hole will exit. The gas above the hole can't go down to find the hole unless otherwise assisted .... by bungees for example.

The gas in the wing is at ambient pressure so does not get squeezed out by the water pressure.

Hope that clarifies.
Mal

Leg Of Salmon
29-04-08, 09:21 PM
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060187.jpg

Does anyone know what the thing under the lamp on the gold line is? Ta.

Clare
29-04-08, 09:31 PM
Does anyone know what the thing under the lamp on the gold line is? Ta.

It's not on the gold line. It's a sensor which I'm holding under my goodman handle to trigger the flashes behind me to light up the cave. It picks up the flash on the camera and sends singlas to the strobe I'm wearing on my back which in turn firs more that my buddy (who is hiding) is carrying.

Hope this helps :)

1138
29-04-08, 09:32 PM
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060187.jpg

Does anyone know what the thing under the lamp on the gold line is? Ta.It's not on the gold line - Clare is holding it. It's a strobe slave sensor designed to allow a strobe that's she's carrying with her to be fired to provide 'back fill' illumination. It's a jolly clever peice of kit, to be honest - wouldn't mind getting one myself so my 'models' can make themselves useful too! :)

BTW Clare - stunning photo!!!!!!!! Is it a David Rhea photo?

Leg Of Salmon
29-04-08, 09:35 PM
That is VERY cool! :teeth:

Clare
29-04-08, 09:35 PM
Sorry for the hijack but here is another photo which shows the slaves working much better....

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060081-1.jpg

No Jason - although David does equally fine photos, as does Anthony Rue. These particular shots are from Danny in Mexico.

Bantam
29-04-08, 09:44 PM
.

Leg Of Salmon
29-04-08, 09:47 PM
.

Sparky750
29-04-08, 09:49 PM
Sorry for the hijack but here is another photo which shows the slaves working much better....

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060081-1.jpg

No Jason - although David does equally fine photos, as does Anthony Rue. These particular shots are from Danny in Mexico.

They are bloody fantastic photos Clare

11800
29-04-08, 09:50 PM
Cant get my head around why a wing flapping around your tanks creating a pinch point when you come into contact with a sharp or even blunt surface could be better and safer than an OMS type wing safely out of the way when empty and using dry suit for boyancy control!
Been watching DIR dvd!
Easy on me!
Only new diver!
Cant be true!
Just had PM, that George Irvine!
Wanted to use OMS!
But was knocked back by them!
Noooooo! Way!

Clare
29-04-08, 09:53 PM
The main reason is streamlining, if you dive in flow this becomes a real issue albeit a bit of a non issue on most wreck dives.
Restraining a wing does mean that holding gas in it is harder if it is holed, just as Mal said. It is also much much harder to orally inflate can lead to unstable iunflation and, yes of course, can snag on stuff. I'm trying to put the reasons in order of my own priority.

Put simply, there is no need for bungies. Just have a wing which is correctly sized. If you want one however, do whatever floats your boat (I understand that moist OMS wings will ;) ) But the poster asked why DIR divers don't do it.

If this must descend into popcorn like most DIR threads, so be it. But given it's a question on a diving forum I thought I'd give it the benefit of the doubt. Do remember guys that there are many other divers who looking at the alternatives don't dive bondage wings either.

Oh and George? Well your anonymous PMer is right that the WKPP did approach existing manufacturers to see if they would make suitable equipment. Divers on the project didn't want to manufacture kit, they wanted to dive. OMS, Diverite and others refused to make what the guys wanted so Halcyon was indirectly created to support the manufacture of suitable kit. Disappointing isn't it when the truth is nowhere near as exciting as the rumour mill ;)

Sparky750
29-04-08, 09:59 PM
The main reason is streamlining, if you dive in flow this becomes a real issue albeit a bit of a non issue on most wreck dives.
Restraining a wing does mean that holding gas in it is harder if it is holed, just as Mal said. It is also much much harder to orally inflate can lead to unstable iunflation and, yes of course, can snag on stuff. I'm trying to put the reasons in order of my own priority.

Put simply, there is no need for bungies. Just have a wing which is correctly sized. If you want one however, do whatever floats your boat (I understand that moist OMS wings will ;) ) But the poster asked why DIR divers don't do it.

If this must descend into popcorn like most DIR threads, so be it. But given it's a question on a diving forum I thought I'd give it the benefit of the doubt. Do remember guys that there are many other divers who looking at the alternatives don't dive bondage wings either.

Oh and George? Well your anonymous PMer is right that the WKPP did approach existing manufacturers to see if they would make suitable equipment. Divers on the project didn't want to manufacture kit, they wanted to dive. OMS, Diverite and others refused to make what the guys wanted so Halcyon was indirectly created to support the manufacture of suitable kit. Disappointing isn't it when the truth is nowhere near as exciting as the rumour mill ;)

Fair points can't really argue with them. Anyway just show more photos :teeth:

Clare
29-04-08, 10:02 PM
Fair points can't really argue with them. Anyway just show more photos :teeth:

A few more then :)

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060122.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060131.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060095.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060005-1.jpg

Moz
29-04-08, 10:03 PM
Fair points can't really argue with them. Anyway just show more photos :teeth:

Youv'e been seduced by Clare's "come to fundies" eyes then?:popcorn:

Mal Bridgeman
29-04-08, 10:06 PM
Clare,

Enough already ..... :D

I have too much on my plate and if you carry on I'll be diverted !!

Mal

BTW anyone fancy Mexico in 2009 ....?

gwilson
29-04-08, 10:06 PM
Youv'e been seduced by Clare's "come to fundies" eyes then?:popcorn:

Theres always one that has to suggest fundies :angel:

Clare
29-04-08, 10:08 PM
Youv'e been seduced by Clare's "come to fundies" eyes then?:popcorn:

Sssh - let the man enjoy the caves. God forbid we have a thread about going diving rather than training or buying kit!

Diving Dude
29-04-08, 10:13 PM
BTW anyone fancy Mexico in 2009 ....?

:)

Whoji
29-04-08, 10:14 PM
Stunning photos Claire.

Which cenotes were they taken in?

Mal Bridgeman
29-04-08, 10:17 PM
:)

A YD gig par excellence !

Clare
29-04-08, 10:17 PM
All in Dos Ojos - not that far in really, max 1500 or so feet or so I'd guess. Stunning dive, about three hours long with no deco as average depth is about 5 metres.

How you feeling now Mal? ;) Florida is nice too :D

Whoji
29-04-08, 10:19 PM
All in Dos Ojos - not that far in really, max 1500 or so feet or so I'd guess. Stunning dive, about three hours long with no deco as average depth is about 5 metres.

How you feeling now Mal? ;) Florida is nice too :D


Dos Ojos, thats same complex as Chaak Mool. Shares some of the same system.
Thought it looked kind of familiar!

Sparky750
29-04-08, 10:22 PM
A few more then :)

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060122.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060131.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060095.jpg

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p175/gledhillc/PA060005-1.jpg

WOW I'll publicly admit i had never seen the attraction of caves but with those pictures stunning


Youv'e been seduced by Clare's "come to fundies" eyes then?:popcorn:

Mate she wouldn't have me even if i wanted to go:embarassed: :teeth:


Sssh - let the man enjoy the caves. God forbid we have a thread about going diving rather than training or buying kit!

:thumbs_up:

Bantam
29-04-08, 10:22 PM
Florida is nice too :D

Really enjoyed the little bit I got to see of Ginnie Springs last year. Strange to see such stunning viz, although I do believe the Cenote's are ultimately better.

I do fancy going back sometime and doing it properly :eek: Am potentially back there in December although are there dive seasons in Fl?

eey_ore_9
29-04-08, 10:24 PM
I have just started using my halcyon 55 explorer with faber 12s and although it feels a tad too big for the rig it was fantastic under water.Just had weekend at plymouth diving the LANE,HMS SYCLA AND PERSIA. REALLY NICE TO TRIM OUT IF YOU USE THE WING. swimthroughs on the frame left on the lane which are quite tight but no snagging but buddy with OMS got snagged twice and ripped bungy!Possibly coincidence but there you go..!Only one thing i found a chore as i was trying to dump from dump valve on bottom of wing i wasnt very succesful having to upright myself and use the power inflate end to dump. Best thing to do is borrow a few kits and try both you might be surprised at what you choose.

63322
29-04-08, 10:30 PM
a lot of people seem to think that oms wings are always massive, double bladdered monstrosities. they do a 45lb wing and very nice it is too. i have one :)

Leg Of Salmon
29-04-08, 10:32 PM
BTW anyone fancy Mexico in 2009 ....?


:)

"It's pretty cheap" they said.
"Once you have your kit all you pay for is the gas" they said.

...

neilh
29-04-08, 10:34 PM
Mark did post a picture some time back of an inappropriately sized wing. 55lb wings were not designed for Faber tanks and looking at pictures like that tells us why.


I'm surprised he hasn't been along with it yet, but as Clare is showing off her modelling skills I feel compelled to jump in to say that when he does post his pics - it's me in the inappropriately sized wing :D

It was taken on a DIR gig at Stoney and at the time I was diving a single. I wanted to try some twin 12s and borrowed a set from Rich. Unfortunately the only spare wing he had was his 55lb Halcyon Explorer which we put on the set with him commenting "this is gonna be way too big, it'll be like a life raft".

If you compare the photo with the one Clare posted I think it's pretty evident that the 40lb wings are far more suited to twin 12s :)


I have just started using my halcyon 55 explorer with faber 12s and although it feels a tad too big for the rig it was fantastic under water.

Ah :embarassed:
Personally I think it is too big - is this your first wing, in which case that might explain part of why you liked it in the water. To be honest though it'll work fine. It's just bigger than it needs to be!

Mr_Brown
29-04-08, 10:35 PM
I use an OMS wing and have done for the last two years. i have never had any problem squeezing through the smallest swimthroughs you can find on a wreck.

as mentioned earlier "it's what YOU feel comfortable using"

what was your buddy doing so wrong, to get caught up twice in one dive? you might want to get a new one.

anyhow, the bungees work for me. nice and compact, twin bag with redundant bouyancy and streamlined.

neilh
29-04-08, 10:37 PM
BTW anyone fancy Mexico in 2009 ....?

When you thinking? Overlapping a cave1 course with a day or so's diving with some experienced divers for fun could be tempting...

Gah! Damn you two - I don't need to do cave1. I don't need to do cave1...

:frown:

Sparky750
29-04-08, 10:41 PM
"It's pretty cheap" they said.
"Once you have your kit all you pay for is the gas" they said.

...

They where the exact words said to me i'm now looking at spending a bloody fortune on a box of death:eek:

JasonP
29-04-08, 11:12 PM
I love the fact that most UK wreck divers feel that they face much harder, tougher on kit, colder etc here than in caves in Florida. Face it, other face reasonably difficult conditions at times - I've holed my drysuit ten times in one trip to Florida when using my legs to stop me being blown out of the cave.

In a UK or American made drysuit?

Jason

JasonP
29-04-08, 11:16 PM
WOW I'll publicly admit i had never seen the attraction of caves but with those pictures stunning

Dos Ojos is better than those pictures. Taking pics in that environment is very difficult. They never do it justice. And Maya Blue, especially the Death Arrow Passage, is better than Dos Ojos.

Jason

1138
29-04-08, 11:17 PM
In a UK or American made drysuit?

JasonHehe. Now there's a loaded question if ever I heard one! ;)

JasonP
29-04-08, 11:22 PM
Hehe. Now there's a loaded question if ever I heard one! ;)

But fair, I think. You can't claim that cave diving is harder on suits than UK wreck diving if you're using a thinner suit than most UK divers use.

My dive guide in Mexico was complaining after sending back his (non-DUI but American) suit about 3 times. And it was thin. I'm not surprised it leaked. They don't sell those suits in the UK despite their other products being widely available.

Mind you, you don't really need a drysuit in Mexico unless you're doing multiple stage dives IMNVHO.

Jason

BSH
30-04-08, 05:36 PM
BTW anyone fancy Mexico in 2009 ....?

If you are serious - ME, I don't think I am going anywhere this year.