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Yearly fitness for instructors

10K views 104 replies 18 participants last post by  bowe310s 
#1 · (Edited)
Many moons ago I passed managed to pass my DM watermanship skills (I was backpacking in Oz and my blood was 90% Coolabah Fruity Lexia wine)

800m fin/snorkel swim
400m swim
15 tread float
100m Tired diver tow

Then a few years and many beers later I did the crossover to IANTD and had to do their watermanship skills

360 m swim
720m fin/snorkel
240m snorkel while wearing full equipment
540m underwater swim (full equipment)
360m Air Sharing swim

(all of the IANTD stuff was done back to back)

I completed it but it near killed me.

Question is 3 years on could I still pass muster?

All the watermanship skills above were timed. If instructors had to pass these type of watermanship skills annually or biennially (?) would we see a high drop-out rate of instructors?
 
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#2 ·
Every time I do my HSE Medical I seem to get better at the Harvard Step Test. They tell me my performance is average for a 30-year-old. The question is, Who ARE these really unfit 30-year-olds?...and should they be instructing?
 
#7 ·
Wouldn't they be better weeding out instructors based on ability rather than something arbitrary like fitness?

I'd rather do a course with a chain smoking, heavy drinking gymaphobic who knew their stuff than someone that can swim up and down a pool in the best time. In fact, that's what I did do and the course was brilliant although having to keep the instructor's **** inside my light canister was a bit cheeky.

Being fit doesn't stop an instructor talking shite, concentrate on QA rather than cobblers like fitness.
 
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#14 ·
I have a young pal who chain smokes and wakes up in the night for a ***. He uses exactly half the gas that I use on any comparative dive. I believe that is because he has developed a high tolerance to CO2/CO. Does that make him a good diver? He always has a bad head after a dive. I think the test will come if he gets ill when he is older. Most of my heavy smoking contemporaries are now dead - but when you are young you don't consider these things.

I was on the top of a mountain last week and was surrounded by so many young skiers smoking that I couldn't stay there. When you are young you don't want to live past 50. When you are 65, you'd quite like another 30 years!
 
#23 ·
My skills are as a good as they need to be for the diving I do but I can just about swim to save myself. The only reason I passed my PADI DM swim test was that I was left to count the lengths myself and, ahem, lost count so had to make an estimate :)

Fitness isn't arbitrary.
Isn't it? How good an instructor does it make you that you can pass a swim test? It makes fook all difference that I've seen. I've seen plenty of so called tech instructors with badges up their arms, presumably fresh from this great fitness check, that I wouldn't let teach me to eat soup without slurping. When you read some of the shite written on here by some of these gurus, it isn't particularly reassuring.

It is great that IANTD put an emphasis on fitness but I'd rather they put an emphasis on quality. I got my rebreather cert from one of Mr Mount's well known pet gurus from doing 15min in the pool on a unit and my trimix cert from a past director of IANTD without even getting in the water. I'd rather have someone that can teach than someone that can swim an arbitrary distance in a set time.

The guy I was referring to in my previous post was John Orlowski. John lives off a diet of coffee, beer and cigarettes, interspersed with the occasional hot dog just for the vitamins. On the other hand, he is one of the most experienced cave divers on the planet and one of the best instructors I've ever trained with (as well as being a very nice guy). He discovered Zacaton, he was a dive partner of Sheck Exley, he travels all over the US and the rest of the world doing body recoveries that no-one else will touch... Do you want to tell him he can't teach any more because of some arbitrary pool exercise?

I'm no expert but swimming up and down a pool doesn't tell you much about anything other than their ability to swim up and down a pool.

Dick Rutkowski has written some very good stuff on dive fitness assessments over the years and swimming never figured very highly in it. Though as an 80 year old beer swilling ex-Marine he probably shouldn't be teaching...

So to answer your question... yes I think a lot of instructors might be put off but not for the reasons you might think. If I was an instructor and the agency was stupid enough to make that the factor that decides whether I teach or not then I think I'd be finding another agency.
 
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#25 ·
It's the swim test that's done without fins that I struggle with the reasoning of! Why do it?! If I was by the water and needed to rescue someone I'd be damn sure to jam a pair of fins on first! I certainly wouldn't strip to my swiming trunks to leap into UK waters... swimming in a drysuit without fins is like watching a small baby learning to swim - all flailing limbs and no movement!
 
#27 ·
Its a test of fitness and stamina, simples.
 
#26 ·
Fitness certainly isn't arbitrary! Having an efficient cardiovascular system and the required muscular skeletal strength to move stages around and do the sort of lifting required in tech diving has obvious and very real benefits to a diver. That said a swim test as a measure of dive fitness certainly is arbitrary! Swimming fast in a pool is all about technique and upper body strength endurance. I have worked with a lot of triathletes in my time, many of whom were some of the fittest guys you will ever meet and could run and cycle all day long but when they first started Triathlon they couldn't swim for toffee. Give them some some technique coaching and they improve overnight, have they got any fitter, no way, if they were dive instructors would they have improved as instructors, no way.

You can look at fitness for dive instructors in two ways. For instructors teaching groups of new open water students, and for instructors teaching experienced, competent tech divers. Would I let an eighty year old wheezing dive legend take responsibility for my 10 year old in an open water environment, no chance, would I sit in a classroom with him and hang on every word he said, hell yes!

I do think dive professionals have a responsibility to keep themselves in shape, and I think there should be instructor reevaluations on a regular basis(perhaps not annually but every two or three years) that should include both a fitness test and an evaluation of their instruction skills. This is the only way to keep the quality of instructor high across the board.
 
#28 ·
Should instructors refuse to certify divers that don't meet the same levels of fitness they do?

There's nothing wrong with a CV fitness test, it's part of the annual HSE medical. Swimming up and down a pool tells you nothing about an instructor's ability other than to swim up and down a pool on that day. Suspending an instructor's status because of bad swimming technique is a joke.

Besides, when they are happy to bend the rules for particular instructors do you really think they'll play it straight on fitness? Yeah, right...
 
#29 ·
Yes instructors should refuse to certify divers that don't meet a prerequisite level of fitness! However within any given agency course structure the prerequisite level of fitness for an instructor should be higher than that of a student. I do agree with you on the use of a CV test rather than a swim test, perhaps the bleep test with differing pass levels for different courses?
 
#31 ·
swimming isn't a great measure of fitness yet it seems (quite logically) to carry a lot of importance in the diving world.

I'm a crap (surface) swimmer the MD can show me a clean pair of heels in the pool yet her general fitness is certainly not great. My own fitness is far and above that expected of a 47 year old and is above that of the average 30 year old. I'd hate for it to be measured by swimming skill alone.

There will be plenty of in water exercises that could demonstrate a persons aquatic skills which may or may not be related to fitness. I'd rather know if a person was likely to be able to execute an in water rescue rather than how well they can swim.
 
#32 ·
Among the armed police at Gatwick Airport, there used to be one big, old, fat guy. I met him later on a diving trip and typical of me, I asked him what he was doing in the company of those young fit men. He pointed out that they were fit and well-trained but should the unthinkable happen, they'd need among them someone who was prepared to let off a round in the required direction. That comes only with practice and maturity. It's the same with scuba diving. When the chips ate down you need someone that has had the experience. The young fit guys can take over once the initial reactive manoeuvres have been taken care of.
 
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#34 · (Edited)
Any type of CV test would be fine, i am not too good at running though, flatish feet, sometimes called hobbit feet, so i would not vote for any type of running test.

My swimming ability is one of the reasons i dive and dont hill climb.

Lots of posters dont seem to be able to seperate the ability to teach, from a required level of fitness. Its does not need to be one or the other.

I have always thought that the swim test was a good thing, it has proved to be a brick wall to a few of my leadership candidates over the years, and it was an easy way for me to gauge fitness. If you can swim well your time will be less, and if you want a better time you can get lessons, if it matters to you.

Its hardly the iron man test, my daughter aged 12 swam against three DMC and beat them.

Of course it would always come down to how it would be policed, and that is an other issue.

Bottom line for me is students should be able to expect that their instructor would have an above average level of fitness.
 
#36 ·
NotDeadYet;1851155 There's nothing wrong with fitness but diving has bigger problems.[/QUOTE said:
I completely agree! I do however think that the general level of fitness within the dive industry is indicative of a lot of other areas within the Industry where the bar needs to be raised a lot higher. Biannual re evaluations for instructors would go a long way towards ensuring that quality of instruction is kept to a high level. I would add to this that there are an awful lot of competent conscientious instructors out there, but IMHO there is way too much latitude between the good ones and the bad ones. Fitness tests per se would do nothing to address this, (as i say above, there needs to be a more holistic method of instructor quality control)but they would separate those instructors who are prepared to put in the hard work for their trade, versus those that can't be arsed!
 
#38 · (Edited)
In the UK at least, to work as a paid instructor you have to undergo a step test as part of the required medical do you not? Now I may be wrong but is this not a fitness test?

As and aside if I need to be rescued on a club dive the guy I hope is doing the rescuing is a mid sixties fat bloke, he is reasonably fit but the reason is that I know he will keep his shit together and do the best he can for as long as he needs to, he will also mobilise all the stunned spectators....
 
#44 · (Edited)
There is a possible solution on a personal level, only train with UK registered professional instructors...

I have noticed people mention the HSE, not noticed any arguing going on about it though? Which posts are you referring to?

I am interesting in you claim to be able to spot a pending lifestyle cause heart attack, how can you be sure just by looking at someone?

IIRC the guy who popularised jogging died of a heart attack... while out jogging....

This is the thing with heart attacks, they don't follow our rules, I know lots of people who should have had one but haven't and a few people who shouldn't but have.... what is your secret?
 
#41 ·
Ive seen plenty of instructors abroad who in my view weren't physically fit enough to be teaching. A lot presumably lie on the self cert form or just get a useless doctor to sign them up. I know of one who is so round she is unable to put her own fins on and cant do a weight belt remove/replace due to the amount needed in a 2mm wetsuit! Ive seen others that go bright red, breathe like a train and suck a tank down in minutes the second they're confronted with a current or any form of exertion on a dive.

Even within the realms of HSE the exercise standard itself is relatively low, ive seen some very unfit people pass it and again these people struggle walking up short hills at inland sites and get out of breath after a short dive in a slight current.

You don't need to be a gym monkey to teach but you do need a minimum standard that at least means you can aid a student or a diver for example lifting and helping kitting up, helping them in/out of the water or controlling them and dealing with currents and/or surface swims in the water. That does require some degree of aerobic fitness! If you look like a heart attack waiting to happen the second conditions deteriorate you shouldn't really be supervising anyone.

...and on the flip side of thing the students and qualified divers that also lack the above some of which blatantly lie on the self-cert forms too.....
 
#43 ·
If you are a heart attack waiting to happen, the second conditions deteriorate you shouldn't really be supervising anyone.
Fixed that for you
 
#42 ·
If instructors had to pass these type of watermanship skills annually or biennially (?) would we see a high drop-out rate of instructors?
I just realised i hadnt answered the question, and i would say that we would see an increased dropout rate.
 
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#49 ·
I agree two or three hours of fitness testing would be ridiculous. However a multistage fitness test (or more commonly known as the bleep test) takes no more than five mins to set up and even a very very fit person will struggle to get past level 15. Each level is a minute long so max test gonna take is 20 mins, and everyone on the requal course could take the test together so very time efficient way of doing it.
 
#53 ·
He is not the only doctor to say things like that :)
 
#54 · (Edited)
I'm in agreement with Darth.

I'm not talking about the requirements of the HSE. I'm talking about performance in the water, a combination of timed swimming and scuba distances to prove your dive fitness.

This is a physical job.
 
#58 ·
I'm in agreement with Darth.

I'm not talking about the requirements of the HSE. I'm talking about performance in the water, a combination of timed swimming and scuba distances to prove your dive fitness.
Let's forget about the HSE test, it is the Chester Step Test and is a sub maximal fitness test that is about as useful as a BMI test. Besides does anyone know anyone who has ever failed their HSE medical as a result of the Step test, the bar is set rather low on it. It is more used as a health test than a fitness test.

Also let's look at swimming as a dive fitness test. When designing a fitness programme one of the guiding principles is that of the Principle of Specificity. This states that for a programme to be effective it must as closely as possible mirror the activity one is training for. Therefore if you are training for a marathon it is best to run slowly for a long time, and if you are training for the London to Brighton bike ride it is best to ride a bike a long way. This may sound obvious but the reason behind it are that the physiological adaptations that are brought about by training are then those that are most appropriate for your chosen activity. If we apply this to swimming quickly in a pool we can see that by far the quickest method is front crawl, and if we look at front crawl 90% of the propulsion comes from the upper body, the arms the shoulders and the back muscles. Now go watch any truly competent scuba diver and you will notice that they seem to only move their fins and that their upper body remains steady as a rock.

Swimming fast in a pool is NOT a good indication of dive fitness.
 
#82 ·
The whole thing of 'an instructor who is as fit as a fiddle'... don't see any premiership coaches that can outrun and outplay their players.
So if its not the fitness side of things...
HSE and assistants take care of the instructor dropping dead...students would be looked after - the odds would be better if HSE or governing bodies insisted on loads of unfit buggers than one superhero.
so if its not that...
wtf is the problem?
Need a hero to worship and will feel cheated when you find out you are physically superior?

So - a basic "they won't drop dead tomorrow" is all that's needed.
 
#84 ·
HELLO.............. You are not a premiership coach, and to be honest i am suprised you dont see the diferance.
 
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#90 ·
If you want to be good at something, you need to practise a lot. I see that most of those discussing this subject have made thousands of posts on YD. That makes you all good at Internet forum discussions.
I would humbly offer that if you want to be a good instructor/diver you need to do at least 500 dives per year. I do a lot but little more than half that figure. It's all about in-water experience - and that means in the ocean. I have seen some very fit people (such as a TV Galadiator) be quite out of their element in the sea. On the other hand, Stan Waterman (90 this year) lives up to his name!
 
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