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The Artist formerly known as 'Kirky'
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My weezle undersuit has become a little tight so I`m looking to change it. What would you recommend, where from and would alternatives require more lead to be worn
 

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A bigger Weezle

The DIR mob will recommend C4 thinsulate..
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>I've got a Body-Glove Thinsulate, dunno about any C4 malarkey, it's fine but unlike some macho 'septics' I wear layers under mine  
 

Dunno how it compares to a Weezle as I've never tried one
Sorry, not much help methinks
Steve
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dominic @ June 10 2003,19:40)]A bigger Weezle

The DIR mob will recommend C4 thinsulate..

Well I'd hate to disapoint anyone so I'm here to recommend C4 Thinsulate  


Actually it's called DUI G400 now but it's the same stuff.

Now I have a Weezle extreme and I find it doesn't work for me. I don't dive with enough gas in the suit to give it enough loft (and yes I can reach my valves before anyone says 'shrink wrapped chicken') so I get cold.

With the G400 I don't get cold. It's really, really warm and I like it.

YMMV etc, etc

Rob.

PS Anyone want to buy a Weezle?
 

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<font color='#FF00FF'>Yeah, they don't shrink do they!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
 
 

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Kirky

I have been getting some really good feedback on the Oceanic Uggi.  E-mail me if you want some specifications sending.

Keep warm, keep cool and dive safely

Kev
 

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[Or get a neoprene drysuit and dive in the nuddy![/quote]


yep - O'three neo and Matalan's finest jogging in winter £15ish

You can do the same under membrane too. None too cool though and a leak is seriously soggy
 
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Kev Martin @ June 12 2003,13:46)]I have been getting some really good feedback on the Oceanic Uggi.  E-mail me if you want some specifications sending.
I also have one of those - I now use it during the summer as I found it wasn't warm enough (for me anyway) in the depths of winter. Nicely made suit (if a little more expensive than other options).

TOP TIP though - NEVER wash your undersuit (especially in the washing machine) - it knackers them!
 

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One or two washes should be ok but many more and the fibres inside get knackered. Why wash it? You only wear it under a dry suit. Have a shower after your dives and stick the undersuit in the garage!!

Alternatively, leave it inside out in the sun and the ultra violet should help kill any nasties in it and reduce the pong a little.
 

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The Artist formerly known as 'Kirky'
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Thanks for the feedback. I really like the Weezle so I will probably get a bigger size - sod the diet !!!!!
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

Received this today from Quest list.

Fellow thinsulate lovers;

I wanted to keep you informed on the latest testing info. Given the popularity of Weezel insulation, we decided to send some samples to 3M's testing lab to have them compare the insulation to the thinsulate we use. While we now need to send them to an independent lab to have them certified, I thought you would be interested in the results.

All samples were tested using a clometer, which uses a heat flow meter to measure heat transfer from a hot plate through the sample into a cold environment. Ther thermal resistance is determined under equilibrium in still air. This apparatus is equivalent to the ASTM D1518 standards. The clo factor of the boundary air layer has been subtracted.

Weezel polyester- Weight 200g/sq. meter    Thickness on surface(not in suit)
1.6cm.
                           Clo at surface 2.0    Clo at 2 psi is .3

400 Ultra Type B thinsulate- Weight 400g/sq. meter     Thickness .8cm
                           Clo at surface 1.8    Clo at 2 psi is .66

Okay, what does this mean? First, 90% of the compression of insulation occurs within 1/2psi. Clo at 1/2 psi and 2 psi is virtually identical. A diver swimming prefectly horizontal and flutter kicking is at 1/2 psi of pressure on the underside of the body due to the difference in depth (about 1 foot) between the top an dunderside of the body. A diver who has their legs bent up and is sculling will be at a higher pressure, closer to 2psi, depending on the exact angle of the trim. A diver vertical in the water will have up to 3psi of pressure differential.

The science says that the 400g thinsulate is twice as warm under compression as the Weezel wear. That does not address perceptions. Also, there is a place for high loft insulation- such as places where the surface conditions are very cold and windy and heat loss prior to the dive is high. We just want to make sure the limitations are understood.

What do you think of this info?

Faith


And so the weezel is perfect if you are sleeping on a mountain in your surface interval but no good (correction: not as good as thinsulate) underwater under compression.
DUI G400 costs £188 or so from SDS

Hope that helps

WL
 

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I'd recommend a bigger Weezle too. My DUI C400 has been relegated to the depths of the cupboard as I find the Weezle warmer and more comfortable, both in and out of the water, and very effective if your drysuit springs a leak. For washing your undersuit you could try some of the Granger products, I think they do something called 'tech-wash' designed for sleeping bags, which supposedly reduces the loft lost when washed.
And aren't these industry/scientific tests great, my favourite is still the one on the OMS web-site where they describe the problems with Halcyon backplates.

Robert
 

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BZZT! WRONG conclusion!

Have you noticed that they have compared a 200g weezle to a 400g thinsulate? Double the thickness of thinsulate gives double the warmth of a weezle. That doesn't sound like a worthwhile difference to me. Is an EQUAL amount of weezle EQUAL to a thinsulate in insulating properties? We don't know - they haven't compared like with like.

Which weight of weezle was tested? Compact, extreme or extreme+ ? Three totally different suits, how can we make a conclusion about efficacy without knowing? If it was the plus, then they may be able to make a case for saying that a Weezle is never as warm as a C4. If it wasn't, then they've got no case at all.

Given that undersuits tend to perform differently when bone dry to when they're wet due to absorbing sweat etc, did they bother to test them in a damp state to find out how they'll perform under the conditions they actually get used in? Weezle and GI3 both make a big deal about how the suits they push are superb performers when wet/flooded, unlike other suits which are useless when wet - so surely they need to test these claims as well?

What temperatures were used for the hot plate & surrounding cold water? A high temperature gradient may show a big difference, that difference might be irrelevant with a smaller gradient. A 50c plate in 2c water is VERY different to a 37c diver in 17c water.

Was the insulating gas normal air? How do the suits work when there's elevated CO2 in the mix, such as is found in a drysuit when it's in use? GI3 is very fond of explaining how Argon in a suit makes a huge difference ("A flooded thinsulate with argon is warmer than a dry air-filled one" etc) so the composition of gas in the tests MUST be an important factor, especially when CO2 is such a good insulator.

In making the "twice as effective" claim they're also making the assumption that when any part of a high pressure situation is encountered, the entire suit will compress. This is patently not true - the lowest part of the suit will compress, the highest part will not. And the weezle would appear to out-perform the thinsulate when uncompressed. So if the diver's lower half is 0.36clo colder but the upper half is 0.2clo warmer, what is his overall status? We don't know! They haven't tested this!

etc etc - as it stands, the stated tests are less than worthless: A hot plate and a diver give totally different environments in which the material has to function, there's no contextual information, it's 100% propaganda - these tests are more full of holes than a fisherman's net.

The only way to truly prove efficacy in this kind of situation is to put a bunch of divers in the two different suits, chuck them in the water and measure their body temperature. And then do it again and again to get a significant number of results to rule out freak occurences. This is not a situation in which a simple machine can give meaningful conclusions.

I hope you'll excuse me for not immediately selling my Weezle (in which I have never been cold even in 6c water or too warm even on blisteringly hot summer days) and buying a thinsulate which would cost me nearly twice as much for no apparent gain.

If these objections get raised on Quest, please keep us informed of what the rebuttals are- the tests MIGHT be worthwhile, but the information given does not suggest this.

(As an aside, ever noticed that when 'scientific tests' show what they want them to, DIR wallahs parade them loudly, but when you get something like bungeed wings shown by tests to be more streamlined than non-bungeed ones, or split fins to out-perform normal ones, they proclaim loudly that tests are irrelevant and it's real life that counts?  
)
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

I didn't know the weezel came in different thicknesses. Apologies. Bad marketing on their part, all these rubbish model names, tell the customers the truth thats what I say!

3M did the tests, not a DIR wallah. It was a DIR wallah who sent the sample for testing. It was 3M who tested and published the results. Ask weezel to do a test. That should even the score somewhat.

But for now this is the only objective (ish) test I know of which compares the two, other than the personal opinions of many outspoken folk on both sides of this debate!

Personally I've never been cold on a dive with a Xerotherm and Northern Diver Flectalon, because the dives have only been for less than an hour. My hands get cold well before I feel uncomfortable. Perhaps longer exposures make a difference. My G400 arrives in July with my new drysuit Yippeeee!

Kindest Regards

WL
 
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