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Dive tart, just can't say no :-)
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I spent an hour yesterday photographing 4 students and their instructor. Had some interesting challenges mainly due to variable vis :)
This is the only shot I'll share on here because the only person identifiable is the instructor herself. Although I do have model release in place.

 

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Why do recreational agencies still teach students to kneel? Beyond breathing, buoyancy is the most critical skill and yet in recreational training it is mentioned almost as an after thought.

We teach how to remove and replace your kit underwater before we teach anything close to proper buoyancy...

Nice photo BTW. Shame about the 'fog'!
 

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a stroke of good looks
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I guess that because at the point in a new divers career where you are going through the skills of the OW course, getting them planted on their knees is slightly more practical than trying to get them to hover perfectly neutral. Buoyancy is important, but it would be pointless IMO wasting too much of the course on it at the expense of other stuff, because it's something people (on the whole) get better at the more they dive.
 

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I guess that because at the point in a new divers career where you are going through the skills of the OW course, getting them planted on their knees is slightly more practical than trying to get them to hover perfectly neutral. Buoyancy is important, but it would be pointless IMO wasting too much of the course on it at the expense of other stuff, because it's something people (on the whole) get better at the more they dive.
Let me rephrase that for you: It's not commercially viable to spend the time required to teach people properly.
 

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Why do recreational agencies still teach students to kneel?
Probably the same reason tech agencies teach on a 6 metre platform in a quarry rather than mid water in the sea - it's easier and less stressful for those learning new skills for the first time

Beyond breathing, buoyancy is the most critical skill and yet in recreational training it is mentioned almost as an after thought.
Absolutely untrue. It's hammered into our students from day one and at the end of OW dive 3, we expect students to perform all skills neutrally buoyant. But not on dive 1. For most students, this is too difficult.
 

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a stroke of good looks
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Let me rephrase that for you: It's not commercially viable to spend the time required to teach people properly.
rephrase it all you like, but news flash!!!: the majority of people learning to dive do so for fun, so they can go out and dive and enjoy themselves, they probably wouldn't bother if the beginners course was a 2 week intensive masterclass designed so they can nail their drills and skills.

Shocking I know, but some people actually scuba dive for fun and have no intention of being the best of the best, they just want to be safe divers.
 

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Dive tart, just can't say no :-)
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have one opinion on teaching complete newbies to dive, I couldn't/wouldn't do it and anyone who does must be a saint. Rob it's easy to criticise but the statistics speak for themselves. Every year PADI turns out thousands of happy holiday divers, a small percentage of whom go on to deeper/better/more accomplished diving etc. But the holiday divers in the main remain safe and able to enjoy the underwater world. Yes we could train to "higher" standards but look at the cost/effort needed if you go the GUE intro to diving course (can't remember what it's called) the cost is prohibitive for the vast majority of people. That might suit a few of the more snobbish experts who feel that no one should be allowed in the sea unless they are perfectly neutral at all times, in perfect trim and constantly buddy aware but it aint going to happen and I don't see why it should.
 

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Absolutely untrue. It's hammered into our students from day one and at the end of OW dive 3, we expect students to perform all skills neutrally buoyant. But not on dive 1. For most students, this is too difficult.
I refer you to the OP. Yes, that is exactly what every OW course I have ever witnessed looks like and there is no evidence of buoyancy being "hammered in" to anyone. Seeing as that image clearly shows divers in open water I assume that's not day one. You may do things differently from every OW course I have ever witnessed (I have worked at several different dive centres BTW so I have seen several hundred OW courses), but the vast majority of OW courses seem to have the 30 second hover as the sole buoyancy session.

In a world divorced of commercial pressures I would like to see buoyancy taught and mastered before any other skills. If that means an OW course takes a month then so be it.
 

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Team HPDW - 10/90 for the Boys
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The easiest way to achieve this would be to set up your own training school then Rob. Much better than asking everyone else to meet your standards I think

In a world divorced of commercial pressures I would like to see buoyancy taught and mastered before any other skills. If that means an OW course takes a month then so be it.
 

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Why do recreational agencies still teach students to kneel?
Two words spring to mind - control and safety. Whilst us 'rufty tufty' techie types may frown upon the practice, very few OW students have their buoyancy control nailed to such an extent that they can hover motionless in the same spot for a long period of time so getting them to kneel does at least ensure that the instructor isn't constantly herding cats...

We were all beginners once ;)
 

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Dive tart, just can't say no :-)
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I refer you to the OP. Yes, that is exactly what every OW course I have ever witnessed looks like and there is no evidence of buoyancy being "hammered in" to anyone. Seeing as that image clearly shows divers in open water I assume that's not day one. You may do things differently from every OW course I have ever witnessed (I have worked at several different dive centres BTW so I have seen several hundred OW courses), but the vast majority of OW courses seem to have the 30 second hover as the sole buoyancy session.

In a world divorced of commercial pressures I would like to see buoyancy taught and mastered before any other skills. If that means an OW course takes a month then so be it.
Rob I'm not as experienced as you but on the evidence of yesterday's observing/photography dive, the students were all a little nervous and took a while to get their buoyancy nailed but within a few minutes they were close to flat, neutral and the arms had stopped flapping. You were a baby diver at some point and I'm sure you benefited from the baby steps approach to learning just as these have. Yes you are a cracking diver nowadays (I've dived with you and can attest to your inwater skills) but I bet you kicked up the vis a few times too when you were learning.
 

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Dive without politics
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You may do things differently from every OW course I have ever witnessed (I have worked at several different dive centres BTW so I have seen several hundred OW courses), but the vast majority of OW courses seem to have the 30 second hover as the sole buoyancy session.

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This may be a case of a little knowledge, being a dangerous thing, as on any initial SCUBA trianing course i am aware of, the student has to display bouyancy control as they swim around, and that adds up to a lot more than 30 seconds worth of practice.
 

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Seeing as that image clearly shows divers in open water I assume that's not day one.
That could well be confined open water.

padi said:
Confined open water is an open water site that offers swimming pool-like conditions with respect to clarity, calmness, and depth.
It has both shallow water and water suffi ciently deep to allow student divers to meet all skill performance requirements
 

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Rob - this may well be their first ever open water dive. Your arrogance is really annoying me. I am heartily fed up of a few YDers thinking they know better than everyone else and this superior attitude stinks. I don't think that any post on YD has ever got me as cross as yours.

After teaching PADI and BSAC for a few years now, I'm not talking out of my arse and I feel there a is a constant belittling of those of us who are not technical and simply strive to train good divers. Someone like the lady in the photo taught you to dive in the first place.

I've seen many of YD's "Expert" technical divers rise up from humble OW diver training, rush to get fancy gear, do lots of courses and then .....I've seen lots of YDers making huge cock ups, uncontrolled ascents and generally not diving as well as they talk about their diving.

FFS it's a photo of new divers learning skills. Get of your bloody high horse.
 

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Rob - this may well be their first ever open water dive. Your arrogance is really annoying me. I am heartily fed up of a few YDers thinking they know better than everyone else and this superior attitude stinks. I don't think that any post on YD has ever got me as cross as yours.

After teaching PADI and BSAC for a few years now, I'm not talking out of my arse and I feel there a is a constant belittling of those of us who are not technical and simply strive to train good divers. Someone like the lady in the photo taught you to dive in the first place.

I've seen many of YD's "Expert" technical divers rise up from humble OW diver training, rush to get fancy gear, do lots of courses and then .....I've seen lots of YDers making huge cock ups, uncontrolled ascents and generally not diving as well as they talk about their diving.

FFS it's a photo of new divers learning skills. Get of your bloody high horse.
Yep, stinks of Elitism :(
 

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Dive tart, just can't say no :-)
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm sorry my original post set this off, I was expecting the same kind of banter about me having kicked up the silt whilst trying to get the shot not this vitriol.

Come on guys, lighten up FFS we all had to start somewhere, give it a break, it may be raining over here but we'll all be in the water soon. :D
 

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Pete: Cracking photo, love the way you have captured the students concentrating on the instructor in what looks like serene peacefulness of the first underwater moments, I actually think that the silt cloud is typical of everybodys first underwater memories and it really does show this, you coudl say the silt cloud is clouding the first feelings of uncomfortableness the students are probably feeling going through some drills and skills that are not natural to them.

Davie
 

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Rob - this may well be their first ever open water dive. Your arrogance is really annoying me. I am heartily fed up of a few YDers thinking they know better than everyone else and this superior attitude stinks. I don't think that any post on YD has ever got me as cross as yours.

After teaching PADI and BSAC for a few years now, I'm not talking out of my arse and I feel there a is a constant belittling of those of us who are not technical and simply strive to train good divers. Someone like the lady in the photo taught you to dive in the first place.

I've seen many of YD's "Expert" technical divers rise up from humble OW diver training, rush to get fancy gear, do lots of courses and then .....I've seen lots of YDers making huge cock ups, uncontrolled ascents and generally not diving as well as they talk about their diving.

FFS it's a photo of new divers learning skills. Get of your bloody high horse.
I've not been on here very long, but one of the best posts I've read on here....

Well said Vonny
 
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