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Member - that's what they tell me!
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The scenario is:
I need to get my A clamp regs serviced (main reg and pony).
I’m going to get a twin set in the next few months and want to change my regs to DIN.
Agreed a good deal with LDS to part exchange my regs for new DINs therefore saving me the cost of a service.
Trouble is I don’t know what to get, M26 or 5/8ths BSP (I hope I’ve got the sizes correct or WOZ will be along to red blob me).
If I buy 5/8ths BSP it may be obsolete within the year.
If I buy M26 the thing may never happen, they won’t fit my existing singles and I won’t be able to use them on the Red Sea trips I do annually.
My current thinking is that I will buy 5/8ths DIN first stages and then when, in a couple of months, I buy a manifold I’ll get M26 and stick M26-5/8ths adaptors in them.
Therefore I should be able to get nitrox fills next year if the M26 is enforced and then stick my 5/8ths regs in. I will also be able to use them on holiday.
Trouble is I can’t help thinking sticking adaptors in my kit is a bad idea.
What would you do?
 

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PADI Internet Specialty Diver
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Tough one. 1st point the M26 has happened and is here, its just no-one seems to have figured out what the UK dive shops are going to do about it.

So. Why do you need the service now? Are you on one of those free parts things? If not you could wait a bit longer and see if things become clearer.

If you must service them why change to DIN at this stage? Change them to match the twinset manifold when you buy it.

I think only ScubaPro and Apeks have the M26 thumbwheels, if your regs are any other make you might find the new fittings are not yet available.

Adaptors are a bad idea - they should be used for filling only IMO.

And finally, why don't the Red Sea guys have M26 tanks? Are there no German divers there?

I think you're in a big group of people who are waiting to see what happens (inc a lot of dive shops). Not much help really. Sorry.

Chris

PS you can swap valves on your singles if you do go M26 later...
 

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blob me).[/SIZE][/FONT]
If I buy 5/8ths BSP it may be obsolete within the year.
If I buy M26 the thing may never happen, they won’t fit my existing singles and I won’t be able to use them on the Red Sea trips I do annually.
My current thinking is that I will buy 5/8ths DIN first stages and then when, in a couple of months, I buy a manifold I’ll get M26 and stick M26-5/8ths adaptors in themSIZE]



If you go for Apeks regs in 5/8bsp, the handwheels are available in M26 too. The central spindle is the same on both so you will be able to swap them about very easily and cheaply if and when M26 turns up.

Best regards

Steve
 

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South African - and proud of it!
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I've spoken to a number of Manufacturers/Suppliers of the last few months on this issue. All of those I've discussed this with have confirmed that M26 DIN wheels will be available come D-Day (D for Dumbass) next year. Indeed, some of them (like Apeks) have them already.

These shouldn't be overly expensive which means you can buy with confidence knowing that standard DIN can easily be upgraded should you want to.

Upgrading is only an issue when it comes to your cylinders. Pump your own and you can stay standard DIN. Go to your LDC after D-Day and you'll need to have M26 valves in your 'trox cylinder or have a CE approved adaptor.

I've recently received written confirmation from one of the big international training agencies (who were involved in the discussions with the HSE on this subject) that adaptors are OK, provided they are CE approved and the LDC has covered their use in their HSE risk assessment.

I have therefore recently "come out of the closet" and confirmed that I for one will be offering 'trox fills to anyone with a compliant cylinder - which includes those with standard DIN and CE adaptors. I even have an appropriate adaptor for people to "hire" during the filling process.:teeth:

All I've got to do now is re-write my risk assessment and wait for the first M26 customer to come in!
 

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....
I have therefore recently "come out of the closet" and confirmed that I for one will be offering 'trox fills to anyone with a compliant cylinder - which includes those with standard DIN and CE adaptors. I even have an appropriate adaptor for people to "hire" during the filling process.:teeth:

All I've got to do now is re-write my risk assessment and wait for the first M26 customer to come in!
Andy, are you proposing to change the filling whips to M26 or suggesting that you will use an adaptor to cope with whatever valve is presented?

It seems to me that after 1st November 2008 all tanks sold in the EU for use with EAN23 and greater will need to be M26 valves to be CE compliant. Most filling stations would therefore simply use an adaptor when adding the air to an M26 valve and all new O2 filling kit will terminate in M26 (male). In other words add O2 with a direct M26/M26 connection and then air top up with an adaptor. This also would seem to be the most intelligent route in terms of adaptor hydrocarbon contaminations (only the adaptor gets contaminated and it only ever carries air)

The turd in the punchbowl is trimix. This needs pure O2 to be added to the tank through a G5/8 valve. Therefore it will be necessary to have CE approved O2 filling whips that terminate in G5/8. Therefore a dive shop can use that without any additional risk assessment.

So the dive shop can fill a G5/8 tank with nitrox/trimix using PP blending without adaptors and without use of any non CE equipment. In other words no change.

So the only issue is that if a dive shop sells a tank with a nitrox sticker and an O2 clean sticker its not CE but the same tank with a trimix sticker is CE? (This applies to rental tanks too so you will not be able to rent a nitrox tank unless its M26..)

Cobblers innit :D

Chris

PS Apeks M26 thumbwheel is 40 quid (Apeks 1. Stufe Anschluss M26x2 Nitrox/O2)
 

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PS Apeks M26 thumbwheel is 40 quid (Apeks 1. Stufe Anschluss M26x2 Nitrox/O2)
As a thought, given that the two threads are very similar in size, wouldn't it be possible to just replace the actual bit with the DIN / M26 threads on (ie the bit that spins), rather than the whole DIN assembly? Even accounting for their profit margin and everything, shouldn't cost more than £5 per reg.

Or have they specifically chosen a thread size that makes that impossible and so requires much more expensive conversion kits? :sad:

David
 

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The smell of freshly turned delrin is more powerfu
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you can also get a M26 insert to change back to 5/8 bsp. I dont see why you could not just put one of these on all your old regs ?

David
 

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.. shouldn't cost more than £5 per reg.
...
HA HA HA HA HA HA..........

Dude we are talking dive kit here.............

5 quid :) haaaaaaaaaaahhhhahaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Chris
 

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Andy, are you proposing to change the filling whips to M26 or suggesting that you will use an adaptor to cope with whatever valve is presented?

It seems to me that after 1st November 2008 all tanks sold in the EU for use with EAN23 and greater will need to be M26 valves to be CE compliant. Most filling stations would therefore simply use an adaptor when adding the air to an M26 valve and all new O2 filling kit will terminate in M26 (male). In other words add O2 with a direct M26/M26 connection and then air top up with an adaptor. This also would seem to be the most intelligent route in terms of adaptor hydrocarbon contaminations (only the adaptor gets contaminated and it only ever carries air)

The turd in the punchbowl is trimix. This needs pure O2 to be added to the tank through a G5/8 valve. Therefore it will be necessary to have CE approved O2 filling whips that terminate in G5/8. Therefore a dive shop can use that without any additional risk assessment.

So the dive shop can fill a G5/8 tank with nitrox/trimix using PP blending without adaptors and without use of any non CE equipment. In other words no change.

So the only issue is that if a dive shop sells a tank with a nitrox sticker and an O2 clean sticker its not CE but the same tank with a trimix sticker is CE? (This applies to rental tanks too so you will not be able to rent a nitrox tank unless its M26..)

Cobblers innit :D

Chris

PS Apeks M26 thumbwheel is 40 quid (Apeks 1. Stufe Anschluss M26x2 Nitrox/O2)
Yeah, it is cobblers. From a practical perspective though it's quite easy. If a 5/8 valve is presented for Enrished Air (assuming all the stickers, wrappers and other stupid stuff is OK) it'll get one if an appropriate adapter is used.

If an M26 valve is presented, again all is OK. The same whip does both.

For Trimix cylinders (Heliair/Heliox/Hypoxic stuffetc), as far as my current understanding is concerned, the current 5/8 valve will still be present (unless the EU "clarify" the regulations) and so the same whip can be used.

You're right that new whips will probably come M26 but that just means the the fill station must have a bunch of adapters. M26 to 5/8 and/or 5/8 to M26. These are all available now with CE approval. We do this now anyway when an adapter or swapped fitting is used to fill an O2 cylinder with a twin index pin valve. These adapters will be needed anyway for topping off M26 cylinders that have been PP filled or 5/8 air cylinders with just air (assuming your compressor generates pure/clean air only).

Bottom line - get whichever O2 whip meets the regulations at the time, get a range of CE adapters and make sure the risk assessment (for Air, EAnx & Trimix etc) is written properly.

You're bang on - for me, the kicker is EANx cylinder rental. I'm fairly confident that 5/8 valve cylinders will still be rentable provided they have an adaptor. Not sure on this one though - I'm still waiting for clarification.

I'm now going to stand in a queue at the post office - just as frustrating as waiting for the HSE et al to clarify this whole situation but at least I can play "spot the nutter" while I wait!:teeth:
 

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Bottom line - get whichever O2 whip meets the regulations at the time, get a range of CE adapters and make sure the risk assessment (for Air, EAnx & Trimix etc) is written properly.

You're bang on - for me, the kicker is EANx cylinder rental. I'm fairly confident that 5/8 valve cylinders will still be rentable provided they have an adaptor. Not sure on this one though - I'm still waiting for clarification.
:)

This is great stuff - so basically you can stick with whatever you've got or whatever you buy new and just use adapters to fit whatever your LDS has! Marvellous!
 

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Does anybody know what the availability of M26 valves is like on rental tanks outside of the EU?
On the dogy tanks that you get in Egypt? I'm guessing but I reckon it is pretty low.
In the caribbean - no chance.


...why don't the Red Sea guys have M26 tanks? Are there no German divers there?
Do we really care about this? ;)

I think only ScubaPro and Apeks have the M26 thumbwheels, if your regs are any other make you might find the new fittings are not yet available.
If Apeks have them does that mean Aqualung have them (what with Aqualung owning Apeks)?
 

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:)

This is great stuff - so basically you can stick with whatever you've got or whatever you buy new and just use adapters to fit whatever your LDS has! Marvellous!
Don't get too excited just yet. This might be the case if Big Andy is your LDS. Some shops will not take the same view. The use of adaptors is discretionary.

Strictly speaking a hobby diver doesn't need an O2 clean sticker or a contents label on their tank, but try getting a fill without them.

This, I'm sorry to say, is the big unknown - what the dive shops will do. They all seem to be waiting for another shop to take the lead. Let's hope they take it from Andy and sensible folk like him.

Chris
 

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This, I'm sorry to say, is the big unknown - what the dive shops will do. They all seem to be waiting for another shop to take the lead. Let's hope they take it from Andy and sensible folk like him.
Ow shucks....

Seriously, if there are any centres out there who want a copy of the email clarification sent to me from a well known training agency (where did I put my Dollar), PM me and I'll forward it to you....
 

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Seriously, if there are any centres out there who want a copy of the email clarification sent to me from a well known training agency (where did I put my Dollar), PM me and I'll forward it to you....
But it's not them who make the rules, so their interpretation could be as wrong as anyone elses. Only real source of clarification needs to come directly from the fools at the EU who thought up this scheme in the first place!

David
 

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EU? CU? See you coming....

.. Only real source of clarification needs to come directly from the fools at the EU who thought up this scheme in the first place!

...
Ah yes.

ScubaPro :D

Hmmm.

You need new regulators sir.

€200 thank you.

Chris
 
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