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Matt,

Re postings on Dnet

Great to see you pin your colours to the mast re ponies. Couldn't agree more, ponies (redundant supply) should be carried by all divers, newbies or not. Posts saying newbies can't handle a pony is f*cking rediculous, posts saying you can rely on a buddy in UK viz in an OOA situation is complacent.


Well done mate, you wrote wot I woz
thinking.

http://www.diverforum.co.uk/talkforums/diverforum/posts/20387.html
 

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I have to say I am pretty disappointed with the whole thread.  


Both Matt and Andy have some valid points, just a shame about the rest of the comments in between.

Breaking it down to the pure basics guys are you both not argueing about making it safer?  Both just coming from different angles.

 

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Hmmmmmm,

I can no longer post on DNet, in a fit of pique I deleted the cookie off my machine, and I can not be bothered to re join.

So, I am going to say it here.

Matt, that was really uneccessary mate. WL, you bit again, silly man.

I can't quite belive I am going to do this, but;

The whole of the DIR philosophy is based around your buddy, to that end your emergency air supply is your buddy. I can't say that I agree with it, because I don't. I do understand it though, I also understand the drills that the DIR mob go through to that end. No other training agency puts the level of emphasis on the buddy system that DIR do.
.
I will argue with WL, Mark and anyone else that comes along, but it does not mean that I do not understand what they say.

Matt, the best thing you could do is to get hold of a copy of the DIR fundimentals book and read it, also get hold of the books by Jarrod, it would really help you to get an insight into where they come from. Fair enough if you don't agree with it but I could tell from your posts that you do not understand the fundimental DIR system,

Andrew
 

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<font color='#000080'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Darren A @ Feb. 24 2004,22:43)]Posts saying newbies can't handle a pony is f*cking rediculous, posts saying you can rely on a buddy in UK viz in an OOA situation is complacent.
Hi

Or posts saying you CAN rely on a pony in UK viz in an OOA situation is equally complacent wouldn't you say?

I too was a little shocked by Matts overly aggressive reply and replied aggressively also. Shouldn't be necessary really.
Its not as if I bruise easy


hey Darren A! why not petition Stoney and all the inland sites to hand out free ponies and see if the fatality rate decreases. Somehow I don't think so, and sadly, as the recent event testifies, there was gas available, but wasn't taken for reasons we probably shall never really know.

Andy

PS
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]WL, you bit again, silly man.
Yes mate  
 I did, should have known better, was in a hurry.
 

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l think Matts view is influenced mainly by diving with his son, and anyone not diving with their own children will never know the overwhelming sense of responsibility this brings.
Approx. 50% of my dives have been with either my son or daughter and even though l never more than a few feet away l felt more comfortable that we always had ponies. (except for the first 20 or so dives)

l bought us all ponies after a dive in Stoney, as a threesome, my son, a mate and myself.

Cluster f**k time, my son was new to drysuit diving and was having problems with his buoyancy, my mates O ring blew on his tank, he grabbed my crap slimline oceanic octopus, which was found to be useless in a stressful situation, and in a instant he realised that l couldn't leave my son clinging to a rock, so he was on his own and he went for the surface.

He was ok but it taught me two things, one, to always have an independent air supply and two, diving in a three is a buddy pair and a solo diver.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Darren A @ Feb. 24 2004,22:43)]Posts saying newbies can't handle a pony is f*cking rediculous.
What's fucking rediculous is those that have no contact with
newbies/students applying a blanket "thou shalt have ponies"
because it works for them.

For every diver that's A1 there is a muppet student that hasnt
a clue. Task loading for them is getting them to manage reg
clearing without choking or partial mask clear without bottling
to the surface in 1m!

Eventually all this lot will be overcome and yes there is a
place for the pony. But unless you are in the A1 catagory the
addition of a pony at the wrong (early stage) is not just a
fuckup waiting to happen, but will seriously hamper the
students safe progression.

KISS (or should that be KIFSS)

TerryH  
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (TerryH @ Feb. 25 2004,00:54)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Darren A @ Feb. 24 2004,22:43)]Posts saying newbies can't handle a pony is f*cking rediculous.
What's fucking rediculous is those that have no contact with
newbies/students applying a blanket "thou shalt have ponies"
because it works for them.
Seconded.

Once they've learned to manage their own gas, the buddy system and safe ascent procedures, then we'll think about teaching them something else.
 

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What's so difficult about a pony? You have an octopus coming around your  BC and hanging from a clip. So do I but my first stage is connected to a seperate cylinder. If your newby has to learn to put his kit together then adding a pony is no great problem.....it's the same as the big one only smaller and once it is on their back then it is the same (but better) than an octopus.

Neil
AD/OWI:D
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Wet lettuce

Or posts saying you CAN rely on a pony in UK viz in an OOA situation is equally complacent wouldn't you say?
I cant see why? You are folowing your buddy because he is inexperianced and you want to keep an eye on him and BANG o-ring failure you stop for about 2 seconds in the 2m viz and your buddy dosent notice and finns away.

Grab pony reg and live to kick crap out of buddy

This is just one example. I could think of dozens no problem.

DIR buddies are fantastic M8 but not all buddies are DIR or even good divers and that follows right through to Trimix qualified ones.

Also: I watched the DIR111 tape last night and listened carefully to what was said and the primary concern over pony’s was the locating of them out of reach behind the diver. GI111 demonstrated mounting a stage and I believe he actually said if your going to mount a pony or a stage this is how. I will watch this bit again to see if I herd correctly.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]TerryH

What's fucking rediculous is those that have no contact with
newbies/students applying a blanket "thou shalt have ponies"
because it works for them.

For every diver that's A1 there is a muppet student that hasnt
a clue. Task loading for them is getting them to manage reg
clearing without choking or partial mask clear without bottling
to the surface in 1m!
I could set a newby up with a pony in a morning no problem. I set my wife up with a pony on her 10th dive OW qualified lacking confidence. She is 5'1" and weighs in at 7 stone but she managed no problem.  

I fail to see the complexity of it. Pony’s have two locations IMHO. On the back reachable easily possibly inverted, the reg is neck laced and immediately to hand directly below the chin. Side slung you can stow the reg as access is simple.

Having sorted out buoyancy and balance with the pony rig which takes a couple of hours the student practices reg swapping. Over and over again. Then practice gas on gas off skills over and over again. With ling (my wife) after she had it all sussed I put her in the water with the pony switched off but gassed up to see what she would do. She reached back and checked the gas in the first few mins of the dive so she never got to suck the reg dry. She checks the gas on in the first few mins every dive.

The buddy is important for checking for gas leeks and checking the tank is full on the boat as part of the buddy check.

If the new diver cant cope with that then he should be referred to a long term development training scheme like BSAC or one not yet invented by PADI.

If the diver is a MUPPIET you FAIL them and possibly save them from hurting them selves in the water. Now there is a new concept failing incompetent or incapable divers instead of sending them out to learn the very hard way.

ATB

Mark Chase
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Feb. 25 2004,07:57)]If the diver is a MUPPIET you FAIL them and possibly save them from hurting them selves in the water. Now there is a new concept failing incompetent or incapable divers instead of sending them out to learn the very hard way.
I dont, if they can't cope, than as you say we have a club
enviroment where they are nertured until they can get it
right.

You said yourself that you taught your wife to use a pony
after 10 dives. That will be 1:1 tuition then, with a constant
(and attentive) experinced buddy.

Back in the real world the ratio will tend to be much larger and the buddy will probably be another diver who has similar
motor-skill problems.

Lets rewind a bit. Some divers become competent very
quickly and need minimum dives to gain enough of a skillbase
to be able to handle a pony without difficulty. After all it's a no brainer right? Stick it on, stuff a reg and away you go.

But what of the newbie that has reached the required
minimum stadard, but is far from being proficient? Chances
of these divers (remember they are divers - have the card to
proove it) loosing a cylinder due to not doing it up properly
is extremely high in the first dozen dives after training.
Lets add another layer of complexity - a pony.

So they now have an extra two clamps/brackets/bag to
manage, along with a change in weighting/balance and reg.
Your newbie has an extra reg and the dilema of should he or
shouldnt he have it switched on. Pretty harsh considering
that over half are still wondering what day it is.

Remember guys (and gals) YOU may have managed it, but
to lump this extra piece of kit onto a diver that is the
equivilent of a toddler, is one step to far.

Let them get there act together, master there buoyancy,
become competent, then and only then start on the pony.

TerryH

 

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I never said day 1 add pony.

I said add pony for greater safety, inferred was when capable.

Matt
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>I won't enter the pony debate but like to say the following: It is very important to practise emergency situtations so the day that something may happen you have much less possibility of a negative reaction.

I've not read in detail all the postings of the Stony Cove accident but my feeling from what I saw her reaction may was more of the problem (by not accepting the buddies octopus). You can't blame her because doesn't always know how you react when it happens to yourself.

So my advice of my little experience is that once in while with a good buddy practise any scenarios you can think of, do it in cold water as well, a mask removal in UL waters is not quite the same as in a heated pool.

I've been considering in getting a pony soon and will when I have the funds (will get one for my mrs as well) and I know that I will be the only person having one, I have yet to see someone else using a pony in Spain & Portugal. (Not saying noone does but I have yet to see it).
 

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Putting aside any argument whether one should have a pony, twins, manifolded twins or whether your buddy carries you redundant gas supply, my experience tells me that many tragedies happen because those concerned are in panic.
Whether they are frozen in panic or or whether they are active and do a very fatal thing, it seems that the business of panic should be addressed rather than looking for a soution in eqipment. That must come down to training.

I still am saddened about the fact that, some years ago, two divers died in 18m in Studland Bay because one had run out of air. Instead of sadly drowning, why did they not have the presence of mind to swim to the surface? Two years ago a journalist-diver drowned after a dive to 17m in the Bahamas because although he swam to the surface in an OOA situation (recorded on his computer), he was, I assume, in too much panic to do what was necessary to stay there.
When using a single cylinder I use an H-valve. But if I cannot exchange regulators what would be the point?
 

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Know someone has addressed this issue of panic what can be done so that the chances of one starting to panic are reduced.

Is it just a case of practice practice practice and if the shit hits the fan you altermatically respond with the relevant training?

Personally I dont really understand why people panic.

Jamie
 

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My post crossed over with Chris’s above it. I used to live a lot of the time in Spain and dived extensively there. I never saw a diver with a pony but nearly everyone had an H-valve (which is where I bought my first). This is like having a pony inside your solo tank. I dive with a 15l cylinder and treat it as if it is a 12l cylinder. There are two tank-valves and two totally separate and independent regulators. If you have a problem with one, you pull the tank over your head or off your shoulder and turn it off, replacing it in your mouth with the other. Or you can panic instead...
 

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The original diving course I did (German) was quite tough. It involved having air tuned off unexpectedly at depth, having my mask removed without warning, and swimming long distances without a fin. No-one would countenance that today. However as a dive guide in the Red Sea (1992), other crew members sometimes took pleasure in swimming up behind me and taking my mask or playing other practical jokes. One day a passenger tore into a crew member for doing it to me. She said it was dangerous and could have killed me. I suggested that I had no right to be the dive guide if I could not take such things in my stride.
However, when people start to dive they are often frightened to take the regulator out of their mouth when all they need to do to reach the surface is to stand up. I was probably one of them!
So what is my point? Instructors should be aware that people are all different and should not push trainees too far too fast without testing that they are up to it. Some take to diving like a duck to water. Others are less able. People should not accept certifications that they know they are not ready for, either.
 

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Haven't seen the Dnet pony debacle yet (it's a red letter week, i'm trying to be constructive at work  
 )

But just wanted to say welcome to TerryH, thought you didn't "approve" of  the fish-prodding YD forum mate

Chee-az
Stevil (aka Steve W on the bsac forum)
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Crisspy Fiver @ Feb. 25 2004,11:06)]Is it just a case of practice practice practice and if the shit hits the fan you altermatically respond with the relevant training?

Personally I dont really understand why people panic.
<font color='#0000FF'>I'm certainly no expert but a great believer that by practising it gives you better confidence and knowledge of your kit. In turn this should reduce the 'panic threshold'.

Why people panic? When fear overcome their thoughts, why that is it's hard to say. It's happened to me although not a 'panic' I had to think carefully afterwards in what happened and why. I was at 18m when my cylinder came loose. Although I didn't panic as such I had everythought coming through my head except for the sensible one. In the end I took a couple of deep breaths and solved the problem. It's a lot to do with mind control.
 

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Chris thanks for your thoughts,

If I was with a buddy and I did not use a poney and my air run out due to a free flow I would hopefully think.

Ok air escaping oopss its gone, out of air signal buddy comes over and gives me his alternate air. situation undercontrol few hand signals and to cut a long story short we are now heading back to the surface.

I would not be so flipant but would hopefully be ok.

I dont and im probably being extreamly stupid understand how the brain as inteligent as it is ignores the fact that you have back ups be it buddies or self sufficent. And that there is a way out of the situation. Cant the brain understand if we panic we die!?

I see a programme once were a helicopter crashed due to bad viz, the pilot did not know were the horizen was and in the end he did not know what was up or down. Simply look at the artificial horizen?

To late panic set in. The pilot thinks he is going up when he is going down and died.


This is the point I dont understand. Why did he not look at the artificial horizen and why do people out of air refuse a reg.

No disrespet to any one involved I would just like to know what brings this on and how to stop or cope with it if it happens.

Thanks again Chris for your thoughts

Jamie
 

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<font color='#000080'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Crisspy Fiver @ Feb. 25 2004,12:18)]This is the point I dont understand. Why did he not look at the artificial horizen and why do people out of air refuse a reg.
it's called adrenaline. fight-or-flight response. the body takes over, the brain takes a back seat. it's got us out of trouble for millions of years, and evolution hasn't caught up with the situations we put ourselves in now that can't be solved best by one of the two reactions above
 
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