[And]

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

Is this true or what?

The reason I ask is that I am doing the OWI course next weekend and I may as well know whether I'll get thrown off the course with my Pioneer wing/long hose setup.

Quote[/b] ]Here's some info I would be grateful if you would all take to heart
> and bear
> in mind when teaching from now on.
>
> At a novice, ocean diver and sports diver level we MUST NOT teach or
> advise
> trainees to take a regulator from the mouth of another diver. This
> practice
> (and buddy breathing, which amounts to the same thing) has been
> associated
> with a number of double fatalities in recent years and is primarily the
> reason why buddy breathing was taken off the BSAC syllabus.
> Therefore from now onwards no instructor, assistant instructor or Dive
> Leader should be teaching this technique. It is the responsibility of
> the
> Dive Marshal on every trip to make sure this is done.
>
> The more astute of you can see where this is going: I would like ALL
> instructors to make sure that they have a suitable Octopus (AAS) rig on
> their kit configured so that it is easily available to another diver if
> required. I do not mind whether it comes from the left or the right,
> just as
> long as it's there available and obvious. In other words, everyone
> using a
> long hose (DIR-type) setup, with hose round the neck and secondary
> regulator
> on a necklace must adapt their kit to conform with this setup while
> teaching
> Ocean Diver, Sports Diver and, for the time being, Dive leader.
> Twin-set
> users may argue that this will nullify the advantage of having
> manifolded
> tanks with their capacity for redundancy.. But it also begs the
> question: do
> you really need it for Ocean Diver and Sports Diver training?
> Personally I
> will be switching to a single tank for all ocean and sports diver
> training
> this season.
>
> Of course, kit configuration is your own preference and when diving for
> leisure with an experienced buddy having the DIR setup is fine. I'm
> certainly going to keep it that way for diving as I am sure that with
> an
> appropriately trained and experienced buddy it's a sound system.
>
> This is the first of many safety rulings I will be making in this club.

Quote[/b] ]Well, I've had a clarification from my DO, I asked if it was his doing or not (I
suspected not as he dives bp/wing/long hose, backup on a necklace..)

#####
I'm afraid it IS a rule, there is no scope for argument,
modification or compromise, it's not my ruling, is entirely a ruling from
the clubs governing body, I have NO choice in the matter whatsoever.

I was told by BSAC that if a trainee in our club had an accident that
involved the removal of a regulator from a buddies mouth and resulted in
injury or (god forbid) fatality and it was shown that we, as trusted BSAC
instructors, were teaching the long hose method said trainee I would not be
sitting in court in front of a heath and safety, or coroners inquest, I'd be
facing charges of criminal negligence, at best, and (!!!!!) manslaughter at
worse as this is a documented BSAC ruling, and since BSAC are our governing
body we have NO choice but to abide my their rules.
#####

Quote[/b] ]Well, my DO has spoken to and emailled Lizzie Bird about 4 times this week and
they have promised to send him the actual documentation as soon as it is
available. However they insist the guidance was in a letter sent to DOs last
October. A quote from BSAC is they are 'very concerned' that this letter does
not seem to have been read.

 

[Paul Oliver]

Imported post

WL

I was a DO over that letter period and have not recieved it, nor as an OWI have i seen it. This date of Oct last year would pre date the DOC and even though this subject was raised and resulted in a heated debate during the Q&A session, and also a long thread on the BSAC forum as Lizzie was totally against it i am suprised if a letter went out before it.

However for your OWI course you will need to teach the BSAC technique, which is taking the AAS not the reg out of the doners mouth. There is no giving OOA signal now just take the AAS.

Much like your DIR standard drills, BSAC have the same and they work, its just that many like to adapt. My attitude is that if you are a BSAC instructor teaching BSAC drills to qualify divers with a BSAC grade then you must teach the laid down skills and procedures.

I take it the letter is from your DO? I may cut and paste it for my branch. But then again i only have one diver who uses the doners primary reg method. HTH

Dive Safe

Paul

 

[Mark Chase]

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Whilst I can understand the need for a system for training and the need for standardisation of said system, I think it is crazy for BSAC to not teach or at least address the long hose configuration.

A diver not familiar with the rig would apparently attempt to find my octo and be sorely disappointed when he /she discovered it was not there. Like all long hose divers my octo is necklaced and not designed handing off.

Does this mean BSAC dives can only dive with BSAC divers? Has GI3 become a member of the training committee?

The irony of this (that a DIR diver has to alter his rig to conform and carry out a BSAC course) is obviously not lost on me, but I have to say the logic goes right over my head. This is not a DIR related concern it is a general diving concern and BSAC's attitude is very short sighted.

To not allow training officers discretion and to go as far as to put it down in writing like a Papal Bull leavs the trainer with no option.

Attitudes like this give BSAC a bad name, we have all herd the fuddy duddy, stuck in their ways, out of date comments concerning BSAC training but this is one of the strongest things I have ever actually seen to support that view.

Its sad and I am sure people like Paul will be very disappointed with this attitude.

My god I am totally in agreement with WL I must go lie down

ATB

Mark Chase

 

[And]

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<font color='#0000FF'>

Quote[/b] (Paul Oliver @ Oct. 24 2003,18:52)]I take it the letter is from your DO? I may cut and paste it for my branch. But then again i only have one diver who uses the doners primary reg method. HTH

Hi

No, not my DO thankfully.

I might give the OWI course a miss then or just go and see what they say. I didn't think it was that strict and you just needed an AAS. 'My octopus is in my mouth' might not impress the instructors

I wasn't keen on having to kneel on the bottom anyway

Quote[/b] ]My god I am totally in agreement with WL I must go lie down  

snigger.

Andy

 

[Paul Oliver]

Imported post

Mark

The long hose has lots of advantages and i am not against it at all. But the reasons, based on incident reports for abandoning Buddy breathing was that the harder skill is practiced more and becomes the reactive responce, but it is not necessary the easier or safer responce, so keep it down to one procedure, the easiest one for all levels to learn. The procedure they decided on was the in-use AAS one.

So AAS is the procedure, if clubs wish to teach others that is there discretion based on their requirements, but for the basic sylabus the BSAC procedure should be taught first.

What i have to laugh at (No offence WL), but why anyone who is a fan of the DIR ethos of having a drill that everyone does, has a problem with that same ethos elswhere, just cos its a different drill.

I do not doubt that the long hose will feature in the instructor manual at some stage, afterall the BSAC Technical Adviser rigs his kit that way. Maybe someone should ask him at the Dive Show what he teaches beginers.

You have to look at it in the branch context, i only have one diver using the long hose from 90, and he is the only instructor with his kit rigged that way.

One of our SD had to use his buddies AAS in total pitch black conditions last year, he did the drill they both have been taught, it worked and they both go to the surface safe. Does it matter what they used? Not really, only that they had both been taught and practiced the same drill and it got them up safe. Now if one had grabbed the reg out of the others mouth, in total pitch black, and the doner! has never practiced or been taught this, that is potentially bad.

I have bought 1 diver up on my AAS this year for real, it worked, and i am in no rush to change a wheel that aint broke.

I just happen to be a strong belever in the system approach to training at the early levels.

Dive Safe whatever your technique,

Paul

 

[Paul Oliver]

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WL

Why not do it? Its training you to teach OW, its not the OWI exam. See what they say. There are lots of branches that want to see the long hose as the primary method, and its an ongoing issue at BSAC.

I'm in no rush 'cos i know even if it becomes the primary method that will not happen in my branch for a long, long time 'cos they wont rush out to buy long hoses.

I have not got one and i don't intend to buy one yet. Then again i can remember diving with buddies who did not have an Octo, and BB was the only option open to me. I was happy with that and i'm happy with the current drill.

On the AI Course my buddy had to teach me Mid water DSMB  deployment. He taught me an indevidual technique that is not in the BSAC manual, in fact it went against several of the safety issues in that specific lesson. Now he was not pulled up for that as it worked well, even though we could not kneel on the bottom to do it  

There is lots of scope for variation and BSAC want thinking instructors, not mindless regurgitators of a set procedure, so where does DIR fit in there?  

Dive Safe

Paul

 

[722]

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WL

I've recently done the OW course. You WILL learn something. Some of the instructing skill will apply whatever method you decide to teach.

You should have seen me acting as a newbie during an OOA mock, me being the donor. What reg did I want to donate (i should have been waiting for the other guy to take one)? Why the one in my gob. Doh!

Adrian

 

[Gavin Yates]

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<font color='#000F22'>WL - easy mate if you don't wanna do it don't do it.

If you do  - stick by the BSAC procs.

Can't see the problem really - their procedures, their methods. I hear a recurring theme ...

Maybe GUE will start doing OW courses?

 

[And]

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

I don't disagree at all or 'have a problem' as you put it. I would just prefer to do the course with my own rig that I am more comfortable with and not start an argument by doing so. I thought I could before I saw these posts.  I personally think the long hose is the better way but then I am not responsible for training thousands of newbie divers so what do I know?

No one can really argue you shouldn't have an AAS at all(although some BI divers might try

).

I shall still do the course, its a way to help my club which I like a lot. I've learnt something on all the BSAC courses, and much of that has stood me in good stead on the GUE courses. I just like to have a good time and do not want to get there and have a debate which has little chance of a positive conclusion. I know Jack Ingle and many other BSAC area coaches use the long hose, never mind the normal instructors and so I figured it might be a little flexible.

Quote[/b] ]There is lots of scope for variation and BSAC want thinking instructors, not mindless regurgitators of a set procedure, so where does DIR fit in there?  

I do think there is a difference between mindless regurgitation and refining a motor response or muscle memory. Both agencies do the same but use a different kit config. Although I thought that BSAC were less strict on that config than GUE. It seems that this might not be the case.

Like I said, I'm not starting a fight, just wanted some idea of what might happen. I don't suppose anyone will see it if we're in some muddy puddle and everyone drops to their knees. viz? what viz?

Thanks

Andy

 

[Mark Davies]

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<font color='#000080'>I think everyone is sort of missing the point here by arguing around the idealogical viewpoints. It has absolutely bugger all to do with any notion of whether the long hose is or isn't a good system.

The point is this; incident reports have attributed at least two deaths in OOA situations to the OOA diver taking the donating diver's main reg. With this as an established precedent (whether you agree with it or not) BSAC have NO CHOICE but to abandon any training that advocates this technique. If they don't, and there is another death related to these practices, then someone risks a massive law suit at best, at worst a criminal conviction.

I thought that was made pretty clear in the original letter posted here. Until there is a legal precedent that suggests the long hose method is in fact the safest then you've just got to live with it. No point bleating to BSAC or blaming them for it; there's nothing that they can do about it.

 

[Dr Stevil]

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I know for a fact fromthe BSAC forum that some branches exclusively teach taking the primary, I also know what Lizzie Bird has said about anyone who tries that with her.

Why not (if you can bear/bare the compromise) re-rig your kit for the course so that your long hose is your secondary and position it in upside-down manner as most BSAC trainees are generally used to? I know, this will sound like heresy to you,  but once you've done the course and passed the TIE & PIE, you can feel free to teach trainees both methods.

Although I use the primary/long hose for my diving and try to get trainees on board with it, for pool work I stick with the traditional setup. Some may argue that it confuses the trainees, but I've found that even raw beginners adapt readily to the LH once you've explained the simplicity of taking the primary

 

[Mark Chase]

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Some good points Mark I didnt know that about the long hose related death's.

Do you know if this was just the OOA diver taking the primary reg off of the other diver or was it specificly the long hose that caused the probelm?

If it was the long hose then it proves BSAC's point and as you say they have no choice. However if it was simply removal of the primary then this proves the theory that an OOA diver will grab the one in your mouth.

Personaly I dive with 90% long hose divers so havent realy thaught about it. If like Paul the numbers were reversed I think I would clip my back up reg on my chest just in case  

I thaught for a bit about what I would do if a diver grabed my long hose and started towing me to the surface with it. My first responce was switch off the gas and cut the bloody hose off. On reflection I think I would dump every ounce of gas in my wing and suit and try to slow the bugger down then cut the hose once the diver breaks surface and bugger off back down for my deco ASAP. Mind you if I was deeper than 50m I would opt for poking him in the bollox with the sharp end my crab podger till he let go.

Potential OOA buddys beware  

ATB

Mark Chase

 

[peter k]

Imported post

I "suspect" the fatalities have came from the OOA buddy taking the primary and the donating diver unable to get his/her occy. For example;
You're out of air, you come at me and take my primary, I can't get to my occy as it's a CF where I stow it, I begin to panic, you're already panicking. 2 dead divers.
Now you couldn't have got to my occy anyway due to the stupid clip or stupid place I'm stowing my occy. So the only dv you are going to take is the one in my mouth.
So you couldn't get to my occy and neither could I get it fast enough. The problem isn't with long hoses or donating the main dv, it's with how/where folk are keeping the occy/secondry. BSAC are grabbing at this the wrong way. They should be teaching how to get at your secondry quicker!

IMHO of course.
Peter

 

[Paul Oliver]

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Peter

Well they are, this is why they have moved away from any OOA signal and the emphasis is on getting that Occy into your mouth and sort things out from there.

OOA situations now in the DTP are generally set into an exploratory dive, the instructor starts the exercise by tapping a student on the leg signifying that he is OOA, he/she then has to get to their buddy and get the Occy in, gain control of the situation and do the assent.

Mine were all holding their breath from tap to first breath from buddies AAS the other day, they even managed it without kneeling on the bottom. They all comented on how good this exercise was for making them aware of where their buddies AAS was at any time during the dive, and how it was stowed.

We were also lucky in having some very poor vis (complements of a couple of PADI Schools)

 

 

and did a lot of this in virtual nil vis.

We also release and breath off our buddies AAS during the buddy check, afterall ITS OUR AAS, AND MINE IS HIS/HERS

I would also add that most of our divers have their Pony reg necklaced under their chin.

Dive Safe

Paul

OK, i have not said all that too well, i'll try and sort it out tomorrow when i have not been drinking.

 

[Stephen H]

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They should be teaching how to get at your secondry quicker!

And they do. As an OWIC staff instructor I see a lot of poor AAS stowage (in fact on a recent course they didn't stow it at all, it just flapped at their ar**s gathering all the cr*p of the day, until re-educated that is). Whatever your view on donating the primary or an aas, everyone agrees that regulators should be 'in the triangle'.

I don't have a problem with people turning up for owic with a long hose and teaching primary donation but I would have to point out that as a BSAC instructor you should be teaching your branch members to be able to dive with BSAC divers from elsewhere and would therefore need to advise your trainees that other divers may not be configured or trained to respond in this way as either donor or receiver. The key thing to remember about the BSAC ITS is that it is about TEACHING not necessarily about the finer points of kit configuration although most ITS staff are happy discuss these things (as long as we don't get a rocket form the Course Boss for scrapping his carefully constructed timetable

)

I don't know where WL got his quote from, however there are, sadly, a lot of people in the BSAC system who still believe that the earth is flat. Just go to the BSAC forums and feel the will to live leak slowly via your boots.

 

[Mark Davies]

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Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Oct. 25 2003,19:59)]I didnt know that about the long hose related death's.

<font color='#000080'>Mark, I've no idea if long hoses were involved at all, only that the conclusions were pretty much along the lines that Peter has stated.

Of course, the argument is right that if the OOA diver is going to take the buddy's primary reg anyway, then we should teach a procedure to cater for it. In these cases, as Peter said, the fault is probably not with the primary donation; rather it is a failure to access the secondary by the donating buddy.

But as I said, we can discuss it until the cows come home, but as long as there are reports in existence that suggest this is a technique possibly leading to a fatal incident, then BSAC are on dodgy ground in teaching it.

Of course, there will also be incident reports involving deaths where the OOA diver took the AAS. It could be argued both ways. BSAC appear to have come down on this side on the basis that it is perhaps less wise to condone removing a perfectly good reg from the mouth of a perfectly happy diver.

It is simply something that I am very much familiar with in my job - arse covering.

 

[Pierre Farrugia]

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hello all,

This is what I think, if I teach for a certain Agency I have to stick to their rules. Imagine WL, you book A GUE course and your inst turns around in a normal BC, no long hose, with one reg upside down and clipped as an octopus......can you imagine  

 But then I don't think it would be a bad idea to mention other prcedures. When I teach I always like to add something about tech diving and it's procedures. And if you are teaching for a club it would be much easier, as once finished these would see your set up and make them curios why you dive like this, so a good lecture on a club night about redundancy, tech diving and why not DIR, would make all these very happy. At the end you would have teached them the BSAC material, so they know that other "normal taught" BSAC divers would expect from you and at the end can choose which is best. What you think?

Regards and if you choose to do it good luck  

Pierre

 

[189]

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<font color='#0000FF'>'Mine were all holding their breath from tap to first breath from buddies AAS the other day'

Why ......??

Just a thought!
Pau

 

[Dominic]

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I'm the only diver in my BSAC club who breathes a long hose - tho a few have long-hosed octopuses.

When I teach, I'm asked to have the long hose as an octopus and breathe off my necklaced backup - which I do. Because nobody else in the club has a long hose, and therefore training other club members to take the DV from the mouth is exactly the wrong thing to teach - the whole reason BSAC stopped buddy breathing was that it meant people went for the wrong DV and put both divers into danger, and teaching the long hose would do exactly the same thing.

We live in a democratic society - majority rules, even if the minority have a better system

 

[Paul Oliver]

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Guys

Where is this bit about the diver will go for the reg in the donars mouth comeing from? Incident Reports? I have been asking around my club and can find no occasion when an OOA diver went for that other than in the days of no AAS.

During all of our one's the OOA Diver has gone for the AAS, even in nil vis. My understanding of the origins of this procedure is that it is based on multiple gas diving where the Reg in the divers mouth is the only one you can be sure is good for you at depth.

For general recreational diving why take a reg out of a divers mouth with no warning when an easy to release seperate one will avoid causing any confusion, supprise or panic?

As someone who takes lots of inexperienced divers for their first channel dives i personally want things as safe and simple as possible with the minimum of extra stress. I remember as a Newbie doing Buddy Breathing, often with an unfamiliar diver i used to calm myself down by knowing i could go for my AAS at any time if things started going wrong.

Lets look at numbers using multiple gas? 5% maybe of UK divers? So are the majority going to adjust to the few? Should they? and if so why?

I'm all for long hoses, but personally don't see the need to take it out of someones mouth unless you are Multi gas diving. If you are doing that you should have the knowledge, experience and skill levels to cope with a change of drills.  

 I am fully aware of the increase to task loading.

JJ - They held their breath to try and get a feel for what its like wanting a breath for the time it took them to get it. Afterall you only normally find you are OOA when you go for a breath and there is nothing there. To me giving an OOA signal and waiting to be presented with an AAS is unrealistic. I generally watch to see them exhailing before i tap them - Subject to vis. They know to breath normally if they cannot get to it or start assending. It was also their idea to do this.

I would add that those doing this were all trainee Dive Leaders / Assistant Instructors.

Well if that aint lighting the touch paper what is?

Dive Safe and i'll get my body armour and helmet.

Paul