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I'ts comments like that one about DIR that put peoples backs up. Telling someone that their objection to your way of doing things is just ignorance is unlikely to encourage them to ask you for more info. I've got no problem with dir configuration, I just object to the attitude of it's fans. Sorry if I'm being argumentative but diving is about fun pure and simple. Whether intended or not, a sort of smug "I've seen the light and you haven't " attitude just really bugs me.
I'ts comments like that one about DIR that put peoples backs up. Telling someone that their objection to your way of doing things is just ignorance is unlikely to encourage them to ask you for more info. I've got no problem with dir configuration, I just object to the attitude of it's fans. Sorry if I'm being argumentative but diving is about fun pure and simple. Whether intended or not, a sort of smug "I've seen the light and you haven't " attitude just really bugs me.
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Given that I'm not DIR and have no aspirations to be, you can insult DIR and it's fans as much as you like, doesn't bother me at all
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If you've actually read what I wrote, rather than leaping straight to an assumption from a single quoted remark, you'll know the full text says says "If you don't know what DIR and Hogarthian diving are, read around until you do. If you know and think it's a bad setup, you don't know nearly enough, read some more. If you think it's good but not for you, you're making an informed decision."
The point being, that whilst DIR might not be universally loved, I've never yet met anyone worth listening to who thought it was a BAD config for a recreational diver to have.
The only people I've come acroos who've claimed that DIR is a bad/dangerous setup for rec. divers have always been utterly clueless about either what DIR is ("DIR is crap because wrapping a hose repeatedly around your neck will strangle you") or about diving in general ("I just passed my AOW and DIR is crap because my instructor says Spare Air is a better system than a twinset")
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Given that I'm not DIR and have no aspirations to be, you can insult DIR and it's fans as much as you like, doesn't bother me at all
If you've actually read what I wrote, rather than leaping straight to an assumption from a single quoted remark, you'll know the full text says says "If you don't know what DIR and Hogarthian diving are, read around until you do. If you know and think it's a bad setup, you don't know nearly enough, read some more. If you think it's good but not for you, you're making an informed decision."
The point being, that whilst DIR might not be universally loved, I've never yet met anyone worth listening to who thought it was a BAD config for a recreational diver to have.
The only people I've come acroos who've claimed that DIR is a bad/dangerous setup for rec. divers have always been utterly clueless about either what DIR is ("DIR is crap because wrapping a hose repeatedly around your neck will strangle you") or about diving in general ("I just passed my AOW and DIR is crap because my instructor says Spare Air is a better system than a twinset")
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Imported post
<font color='#0000FF'>Ooooo...another DIR "debate" ? goody, hasn't been one along for at least five minutes
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Don't sweat it Jason, it's not worth the effort, they can't help theirselves and more than the Hare Krishna's or any other indoctrinated sect can, some folk need crutches to get through life.
Personally I'm bored to tears (polite version) with the permanent insistence that "It's a Superior system" "It's for the Elite" as well as banging on about "Being The Best....". I'm only surprised they don't call theirselves "The Master Divers" and sing "DIR Uber Alles" before every dive.
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It occured to me at the weekend that you don't see any of "The Elite" organizing YD Troop gigs, perhaps a demonstation of all this, ahem.. superiority might be illuminating
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Actually, no, scrub that idea, it'd never work, just imagine:
"Post-dive beer? no not allowed",
"you're smoking, no diving for you tomorrow",
or... "I hope you and you girlfriend/wife are going straight to sleep when you go to bed!
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"
Chee-az
Steve
<font color='#0000FF'>Ooooo...another DIR "debate" ? goody, hasn't been one along for at least five minutes
Don't sweat it Jason, it's not worth the effort, they can't help theirselves and more than the Hare Krishna's or any other indoctrinated sect can, some folk need crutches to get through life.
Personally I'm bored to tears (polite version) with the permanent insistence that "It's a Superior system" "It's for the Elite" as well as banging on about "Being The Best....". I'm only surprised they don't call theirselves "The Master Divers" and sing "DIR Uber Alles" before every dive.
It occured to me at the weekend that you don't see any of "The Elite" organizing YD Troop gigs, perhaps a demonstation of all this, ahem.. superiority might be illuminating
Actually, no, scrub that idea, it'd never work, just imagine:
"Post-dive beer? no not allowed",
"you're smoking, no diving for you tomorrow",
or... "I hope you and you girlfriend/wife are going straight to sleep when you go to bed!
Chee-az
Steve
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"None of you are DIR, you can't dive. And since that only leaves me, and I can't dive solo, none of us can dive. So, off to the pub for a healthy mineral water followed by a brisk jog, yeah?"
Hey, don't blame me, it barely gets a mention in the whole Guide..[b said:
Well, no. The actual dialogue would be:[b said:
"None of you are DIR, you can't dive. And since that only leaves me, and I can't dive solo, none of us can dive. So, off to the pub for a healthy mineral water followed by a brisk jog, yeah?"
Imported post
<font color='#0000FF'>Actually I can't even see the mention about the Hog system, but they definately like you for one of their own
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"Dominic, come.....come... to Mordor, oops!
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I mean, to Woodville Karst we will take you....."
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Anyhoo...actual diving, now who wants to talk about that instead.??? Feeling very tempted to blow tomorrow afternoon off to get in a splosh locally, got seriously itchy fins
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Chee-az
Steve
<font color='#0000FF'>Actually I can't even see the mention about the Hog system, but they definately like you for one of their own
"Dominic, come.....come... to Mordor, oops!
Anyhoo...actual diving, now who wants to talk about that instead.??? Feeling very tempted to blow tomorrow afternoon off to get in a splosh locally, got seriously itchy fins
Chee-az
Steve
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I have no problem attending a YD gig. I look forward to one being arranged that I can attend!
Regards,
Mark.
<font color='#0000FF'>My fault. Trust me to spot it (and then mention it on YD). The winker at the end of my post obviously didn't convey the lightheartedness of the post. It's just banter so don't take it personally.[b said:
I have no problem attending a YD gig. I look forward to one being arranged that I can attend!
Regards,
Mark.
Imported post
<font color='#0000FF'>
1) small-ish get together in Anglesey 5/6 July,
2) Kev W's clyde trip (august 16/17) which still needs a couple of bodies to make it fly,
3) Diving Dude's Farnes gig (18/19 August),
4) Tyneside weekend 23/24 august (WL is up for that so you've a DIR buddy there)
5) Alternatively, you could always organize a gig for us to join you on...
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Chee-az
Steve
<font color='#0000FF'>
Well, lets see what are the scores on the doors:[b said:
1) small-ish get together in Anglesey 5/6 July,
2) Kev W's clyde trip (august 16/17) which still needs a couple of bodies to make it fly,
3) Diving Dude's Farnes gig (18/19 August),
4) Tyneside weekend 23/24 august (WL is up for that so you've a DIR buddy there)
5) Alternatively, you could always organize a gig for us to join you on...
Chee-az
Steve
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I'm honestly not being inflammatory here. I promise. But do DIR divers really, genuinely refuse to dive with non-DIR divers? Or is that just a fanatical splinter sect? Is it just their buddies that have to be DIR or the whole group? I don't know any DIR divers so I'm curious.
I'm honestly not being inflammatory here. I promise. But do DIR divers really, genuinely refuse to dive with non-DIR divers? Or is that just a fanatical splinter sect? Is it just their buddies that have to be DIR or the whole group? I don't know any DIR divers so I'm curious.
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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi
'Birds of a feather flock together !!'
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Well, whenever reasonably possible anyway
Diving with someone who has the same kit, same gas, same procedures, and same outlook is cool. And we can talk DIR without getting beatup by the mainstream (or Personal Preference or Freethinkers or whatever you want to call the alternative)
WL
<font color='#0000FF'>Hi
'Birds of a feather flock together !!'
Well, whenever reasonably possible anyway
Diving with someone who has the same kit, same gas, same procedures, and same outlook is cool. And we can talk DIR without getting beatup by the mainstream (or Personal Preference or Freethinkers or whatever you want to call the alternative)
WL
Imported post
<font color='#0000FF'>WL[/quote]
Crowd (in unison): "Yes we're all individuals"
you got some funny ideas about
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my vegetable chum
Ah gwan, gwan gwan gwan....
Baw haw haw haw haw....
sincerely
Dr Evil
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<font color='#0000FF'>WL[/quote]
Brian: "you're all individuals"[b said:
Crowd (in unison): "Yes we're all individuals"
you got some funny ideas about
Violence? naaaaaarrr, but perhaps I could persuade you to "volunteer" for some of my medical experiments?[b said:
Ah gwan, gwan gwan gwan....
Baw haw haw haw haw....
sincerely
Dr Evil
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Nother question: what's the DIR line on:
full face masks?
Solo diving?
Rebreathers?
Shore diving?
disabled/special needs divers?
Nother question: what's the DIR line on:
full face masks?
Solo diving?
Rebreathers?
Shore diving?
disabled/special needs divers?
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Solo diving? - absolute no-no
Rebreathers? - acceptable, but only if absolutely necessary. I bleieve the exact quote is "when the danger of using a rebreather is outweighed by the danger of not using one". And, of course, u can't use the Inspiration
Shore diving? - What about it?
disabled/special needs divers? - have special needs...
full face masks? - absolute no-no[b said:
Solo diving? - absolute no-no
Rebreathers? - acceptable, but only if absolutely necessary. I bleieve the exact quote is "when the danger of using a rebreather is outweighed by the danger of not using one". And, of course, u can't use the Inspiration
Shore diving? - What about it?
disabled/special needs divers? - have special needs...
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- Better to spend the money that a pair of full foots would cost on a better pair of open heel.
Not necessarily. Some people never dive anywhere but warm water. There's no need for them to have open-heel fins.
Have you ever walked across a burning hot beach in full equipment? It can be quite painful, also if you are diving in the red sea from a boat there is always the chance they shoot off without you, you may have to get on to the reef, am I going on?
And if you only have open-heels, then you kinda need to buy yourself wetboots as well for when you're not in a drysuit, so it's expense wherever you look.
But I never actually recommended buying both types - just mentionethat there ARE two types.
It may be I think of full foot fins more as skin diving equipment,
>Snorkel: Most divers insist that snorkels have no place in scuba diving.
- Not in my experience, limited as it may be.
It is in mine, and of a huge number of other divers I've talked to...
You did say most, I was guessing that you were guessing...
>A snorkel attached to the mask is widely considered a sure sign of a novice diver.
- Again not in my experience, perhaps in the world of techie divers.
Not really - a snorkel underwater is useless. A snorkel on your mask strap can catch and cause your mask to flood or even come off. Carrying one is one thing, carrying it in a hazardous location is quite another. You don't have to be a technical diver for that to be a concern
That's true, but I think you would have more chance of loosing the snorkel than having your mask ripped off, and I still think that your novice statement is not true, but its your guide.
- The reason that Poseidon hoses are different is because they are upstream valves
Some of them are. By no means all.
OK, the only one I am not sure about is the triton or whatever its called, but my point was the hoses are different because they have a built in pressure relief valve, not because of IP.
- Also as far as I know there is no such thing as a standard intermediate pressure.
There is. Virtually every other regulator runs an IP of around 9. Poseidon, IIRC, are around 11.
Yes they are high IP, but every maker specifies a IP for their reg, not standard.
- Better to spend the money that a pair of full foots would cost on a better pair of open heel.
Not necessarily. Some people never dive anywhere but warm water. There's no need for them to have open-heel fins.
Have you ever walked across a burning hot beach in full equipment? It can be quite painful, also if you are diving in the red sea from a boat there is always the chance they shoot off without you, you may have to get on to the reef, am I going on?
And if you only have open-heels, then you kinda need to buy yourself wetboots as well for when you're not in a drysuit, so it's expense wherever you look.
But I never actually recommended buying both types - just mentionethat there ARE two types.
It may be I think of full foot fins more as skin diving equipment,
>Snorkel: Most divers insist that snorkels have no place in scuba diving.
- Not in my experience, limited as it may be.
It is in mine, and of a huge number of other divers I've talked to...
You did say most, I was guessing that you were guessing...
>A snorkel attached to the mask is widely considered a sure sign of a novice diver.
- Again not in my experience, perhaps in the world of techie divers.
Not really - a snorkel underwater is useless. A snorkel on your mask strap can catch and cause your mask to flood or even come off. Carrying one is one thing, carrying it in a hazardous location is quite another. You don't have to be a technical diver for that to be a concern
That's true, but I think you would have more chance of loosing the snorkel than having your mask ripped off, and I still think that your novice statement is not true, but its your guide.
- The reason that Poseidon hoses are different is because they are upstream valves
Some of them are. By no means all.
OK, the only one I am not sure about is the triton or whatever its called, but my point was the hoses are different because they have a built in pressure relief valve, not because of IP.
- Also as far as I know there is no such thing as a standard intermediate pressure.
There is. Virtually every other regulator runs an IP of around 9. Poseidon, IIRC, are around 11.
Yes they are high IP, but every maker specifies a IP for their reg, not standard.
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"Full face masks? - absolute no-no"
So what if I'm doing a seurvey and need to communicate with someone else/surface using comms? Does that mean DIR techniques are not applicable to working dives? Or are comms based surveys inherently unsafe?
Solo diving? - absolute no-no
Again, on working dives eg survey with zero viz is DIR non-applicable? What use is a buddy in zero viz? Or in a strong drift dive eg. corrvrekan/falls of Lora where buddy separation is unavoidable? Would DIR divers not undertake such drifts due to the danger, and if they did would they still carry a long hose despite there being no buddies around, and streamlining being a big issue?
"Rebreathers? - acceptable, but only if absolutely necessary. I bleieve the exact quote is "when the danger of using a rebreather is outweighed by the danger of not using one". And, of course, u can't use the Inspiration"
Who decides when it's worth the risk? Why not an inspiration? It's the only one with CE approval, isn't it?
"disabled/special needs divers? - have special needs..."
Some people clearly need specially configured equipment ot overcome their special needs. For instance a one piece harness might be impossible, or a manifold unreachable. Does this make them unsafe? Are they unfit to dive DIR or will the DIR system adjust to allow for their requirements?
I understand, I think, that DIR was born out of spooky cave diving and that the theory was that if it works under those conditions then it must be safe in other conditions too. What I'm interested in is whether DIR is considered the best system for recreational technical dives of a specific type or for all diving? I have always thought that the equipment and team should be custom made for the dive, depending on conditions, objectives and personnel. Is the DIR system flexible in that way? I mean lets say I want to explore a cave entrance in zero viz. and decide the safest way is solo, on a surface tended lifeline, with harwire coms and an inverted twin 7's with no wing, would that be allowed? Or does DIR not do that kind of diving? Or would a DIR system be better under those conditions?
"Full face masks? - absolute no-no"
So what if I'm doing a seurvey and need to communicate with someone else/surface using comms? Does that mean DIR techniques are not applicable to working dives? Or are comms based surveys inherently unsafe?
Solo diving? - absolute no-no
Again, on working dives eg survey with zero viz is DIR non-applicable? What use is a buddy in zero viz? Or in a strong drift dive eg. corrvrekan/falls of Lora where buddy separation is unavoidable? Would DIR divers not undertake such drifts due to the danger, and if they did would they still carry a long hose despite there being no buddies around, and streamlining being a big issue?
"Rebreathers? - acceptable, but only if absolutely necessary. I bleieve the exact quote is "when the danger of using a rebreather is outweighed by the danger of not using one". And, of course, u can't use the Inspiration"
Who decides when it's worth the risk? Why not an inspiration? It's the only one with CE approval, isn't it?
"disabled/special needs divers? - have special needs..."
Some people clearly need specially configured equipment ot overcome their special needs. For instance a one piece harness might be impossible, or a manifold unreachable. Does this make them unsafe? Are they unfit to dive DIR or will the DIR system adjust to allow for their requirements?
I understand, I think, that DIR was born out of spooky cave diving and that the theory was that if it works under those conditions then it must be safe in other conditions too. What I'm interested in is whether DIR is considered the best system for recreational technical dives of a specific type or for all diving? I have always thought that the equipment and team should be custom made for the dive, depending on conditions, objectives and personnel. Is the DIR system flexible in that way? I mean lets say I want to explore a cave entrance in zero viz. and decide the safest way is solo, on a surface tended lifeline, with harwire coms and an inverted twin 7's with no wing, would that be allowed? Or does DIR not do that kind of diving? Or would a DIR system be better under those conditions?
Imported post
If we're talking commercial blackwater type stuff then that's outside of the scope of DIR
As to getting seperated on a drift....If the current was such that I needed to hang onto my buddys harness in order not to get seperated, I'd hang on.
If the dive was one where I was pretty much garanteed to get seperated from my buddy, I wouldn't do it.
As to the Inspiration, why take a CCR when and SCR will do?
I'm pretty sure the system wouldn't adjust to accomodate one person. It's a matter of putting the team first. Standardised equipment/setup is part of the system and it would be a bit difficult to change that and still be DIR
You, of course may not agree, and that's fine I have no problem with that.
It's not designed for SAR/Military/Commercial diving though I beleive I'm right in saying that some practices have been adopted by some of the above types of divers.
I think your example of zero viz, surface tended stuff is really more in the domain of commercial diving rather than recreational. And that's not what DIR is all about.
Depends why you need the comms. As in do you really need it.[b said:
If we're talking commercial blackwater type stuff then that's outside of the scope of DIR
Again if you're talking commercial blackwater stuff it's outside the scope of DIR.[b said:
As to getting seperated on a drift....If the current was such that I needed to hang onto my buddys harness in order not to get seperated, I'd hang on.
If the dive was one where I was pretty much garanteed to get seperated from my buddy, I wouldn't do it.
The people doing the dive I guess. It's something that would get discussed. The point is you only need an RB when you can't do it on OC.[b said:
As to the Inspiration, why take a CCR when and SCR will do?
Hmmmm, good question this and one that I don't really know the answer to.[b said:
I'm pretty sure the system wouldn't adjust to accomodate one person. It's a matter of putting the team first. Standardised equipment/setup is part of the system and it would be a bit difficult to change that and still be DIR
For me, I think it's the best system for recreational/technical diving.[b said:
You, of course may not agree, and that's fine I have no problem with that.
It's not designed for SAR/Military/Commercial diving though I beleive I'm right in saying that some practices have been adopted by some of the above types of divers.
I think your example of zero viz, surface tended stuff is really more in the domain of commercial diving rather than recreational. And that's not what DIR is all about.
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Imported post
Thanks for a helpful response. All makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for a helpful response. All makes a lot of sense.
Imported post
Dom, a great concept. After reading YD, Handbag net etc, we all tend to create our own consensus and it is great that you are taking the time to distill it all into one place, admittedly with your own slant.
I am also pleased to see it isn't a bland rehash, you are showing your opinions and sometimes it's good to read a firm opinion - it makes it easier for the reader to make decisions.
Two things I'd like to see in a perfect world (where time and effort were freely available) -
1. A list of makes, models and prices (with dates of posting or updated) with comments from those who have/have used them. I guess I am after a rating system. You made a great comment about not going for shiny things but getting tried and tested. Here would be a good place to invite the masses to list their tried and tested.
2. Where there is choice, more on the pro's and con's, but always with your final opinion on what is best, e.g. dry suits - neoprene v's trilaminate v's.... with your personal favourite and why.
3. Links, links and more links!
I don't agree 100% with everything you said, but 98% will do, and I would rather read your opinions than a bland description of everything that doesn't actually help make decisions.
I think we need more of this sort of thing. The collection of thoughts and the listing of the options can only lead to a better educated diving fraternity, and incidentally would take the wind out of those who think there's is the only way (the Clan springs to mind! Why is it DIR always results in 2 pages of argument??!)
Cheers Dom!
Dom, a great concept. After reading YD, Handbag net etc, we all tend to create our own consensus and it is great that you are taking the time to distill it all into one place, admittedly with your own slant.
I am also pleased to see it isn't a bland rehash, you are showing your opinions and sometimes it's good to read a firm opinion - it makes it easier for the reader to make decisions.
Two things I'd like to see in a perfect world (where time and effort were freely available) -
1. A list of makes, models and prices (with dates of posting or updated) with comments from those who have/have used them. I guess I am after a rating system. You made a great comment about not going for shiny things but getting tried and tested. Here would be a good place to invite the masses to list their tried and tested.
2. Where there is choice, more on the pro's and con's, but always with your final opinion on what is best, e.g. dry suits - neoprene v's trilaminate v's.... with your personal favourite and why.
3. Links, links and more links!
I don't agree 100% with everything you said, but 98% will do, and I would rather read your opinions than a bland description of everything that doesn't actually help make decisions.
I think we need more of this sort of thing. The collection of thoughts and the listing of the options can only lead to a better educated diving fraternity, and incidentally would take the wind out of those who think there's is the only way (the Clan springs to mind! Why is it DIR always results in 2 pages of argument??!)
Cheers Dom!
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