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The original post is at http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/depthforum/posts/1098.html

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The legal advice I have been given is that the offence under EN14143 is "selling" a rebreather in a EC state that is not CE marked and/or not conforming to it's CE mark specification. The offence does not only apply to dealers. Anyone who sells such a rebreather is breaking the law, dealer or private individual.

Consequently, were I to sell my rebreather I would need to remove all modified bits that were not covered by the manufacturers CE mark to be legal.

Another sting in the tail is that where an importer is not identifiable (such as in the case of the KISS perhaps) then the person who takes delivery of the 1st unit after EN14143 becomes law, will be deemed to be the importer for all units imported into the EC. The importer will share with the manufacturer the liability and if the manufacturer cannot be prosecuted because he is outside the jurisdiction of EC then the importer will carry the liability. Of course, this would need to be confirmed by a sucessful case but that is the legal opinion I have heard.

I understand that EN14143 is now in force and all EC member states have 6 months in which to incorporate it into national legislation.
Nanny state, anyone..?
 

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So does that mean that if I bought a KISS kit in the States, built it there and then carried it over with me to the EC, and I was the first identified after the legislation came into force i would take liability for all subsequent built units entering the country??  

How strange.

I saw my first KISS the other day sat in a dive shop, [resumably waiting for fills.  It was lovely, I lusted after it's braided steel hoses and matt black scrubber.  Much sexier than an Inspiration so who needs  CE mark?
??

Okay, so maybe I'm exaggerating, but it was a nice looking piece of kit.
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dominic @ Sep. 08 2003,13:18)]Another sting in the tail is that where an importer is not identifiable (such as in the case of the KISS perhaps) then the person who takes delivery of the 1st unit after EN14143 becomes law, will be deemed to be the importer for all units imported into the EC. The importer will share with the manufacturer the liability and if the manufacturer cannot be prosecuted because he is outside the jurisdiction of EC then the importer will carry the liability. Of course, this would need to be confirmed by a sucessful case but that is the legal opinion I have heard.

I understand that EN14143 is now in force and all EC member states have 6 months in which to incorporate it into national legislation.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Nanny state, anyone..?
Absobloodylutely typical.  


Don't say I never warned anyone! 20 years ago it was "you have to wear a crash helmet" now you can't even buy something you want in order to go diving !!!!!

A more sensible approach would be that the vendor has to provide an itemised list of alterations made which both parties sign - that is IF the bloody EEC/HSE have to stick their noses in, which I wish they wouldn't.  


And, as for the first user possibly being considered the importer for all units under certain circumstances - have you ever heard anything so ludicrous. Oooh!!! it makes me want to


I would not be surprised if crusty bread is banned at some time in the future in case someone hurts their gums.


Oh, Dominic, thanks for the invite.  


Disclaimer - I have not verified any of the details quoted above. I have faith in the veracity of the "Posters" involved and, furthermore, I am quite happy to believe anything of this nature.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finless @ Sep. 08 2003,15:54)]I would not be surprised if crusty bread is banned at some time in the future in case someone hurts their gums.
Never, the French make too much of it  


Trouble with these type of regs/nanny state is that nanny doesn't know that you are growing up.

I know this is similar to a previous debate. 150 years ago, it was OK to put small children up chimneys, under moving machinery etc. Thinks have changed. Society (which is us, sort of) no longer generally accepts the death of anybody in any situation. Look at how the reporting of soldier deaths in IRAQ is reported, compared to WW2.

I don't know for certain, but I suspect that most rebreathers sold are not used as scUba, but scba. They are used as emergency sets to get out of mines and tunnels etc. The first rebreather I used just clipped onto a waist belt. I wish this were possible for diving
Thus the restrictions against mods etc, as buyers would want the same kit time after time after time. The type approval system should help to prevent quick fixes to problems being rushed out before suitable testing.

The import thing sounds odd, but as all we have is hearsay at the moment, I think it unfair to comment without seeing the document EN14143. Which can't be found via Google. Rocking horse shit is more common!

Right who wants to but some home made toys, just the thing for the kids at Xmas. They are made of re-cycled medical needles and swabs, so its good for the environment too!

Adrian
 

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Well, the whole thing is in the hands of BSAC's Rebreather Working Group, and I'm sure we can rest assured our governing body will make sure all concerns are properly represented.

giggle
 

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giggle - blow my brains through my nose from laughing more like.

Influencing BSAC Rebreather Working Group - Legend has it that this is not easy.
RBWG - a minority in BSAC.
BSAC - one of many minority interest groups - trying to influence UK government.
UK Gov - a minority in Europe, and not trying.

Nuff said.

Adrian
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
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Sounds about right.

I wonder, tho, at what point a rebreather becomes a rebreather?

EG the kiss - Apeks OC regs, corrugated hoses are generic enough, the scrubber is just a bit of pipe, etc etc - if I ordered the parts in three or four batches, none of them would be a complete rebreather, so how does that stand?

Does just leaving the O-rings out qualify as a non-rebreather still?

If I go to Canda, buy it there, and then fly it in, is it still covered by this law?

If a US citizen comes into the EU with a KISS or a weeks holiday and then leaves again, is he considered the importer?

Should be interesting finding out the answers to all the questions. Especially how the Hell they think they can enforce the private citizen selling a non-CE rebreather...
 

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True story - mate of mine returned his malfunctioning Insp lid (includes all electronics, handsets etc) to APD the other week for a bit of fettling. Left the (Panasonic) batteries in.  Got the lid back a few days later sans batteries. Why? Cos the unit's CE certified with Energizers. APD legally cannot return a unit to its owner after repair/service with kit on it that wasn't present during CE certification. Including batteries. Like Panasonics are loaded with Semtex are they?  Oooh it makes me spit.

PS Bryan - when you eventually recover the box off my cold dead body, you'll not be allowed to dive it cos I drilled a couple of holes in the casing for the Argon bottle.
Sorry mate, but rules are rules.  


EDIT: I know one of the peeps on the RWG & I'd struggle to find a more knowledgeable RB guru anywhere in the world.  Totally knows his stuff & has been diving the 'Yellow Truck'- ie Cis-Lunar- longer than the Inspiration's been in existence.
You might not agree with what's coming out of the RWG, but they have to toe the EU line, even though they agree a lot of it is bollocks.....

The answer? A lorryload of Panasonic batteries and some detonators outside EU HQ Brussels.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rob Evans @ Sep. 09 2003,21:59)]The answer? A lorryload of Panasonic batteries and some detonators outside EU HQ Brussels.
Thats probably set off the web version of Echelon nicely Rob  
along with me quoting it.

Adrian
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rob Evans @ Sep. 09 2003,22:26)]You ain't seen me, right?
He went that way ossifer.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>HI all, been following this thread with interest, im under the impression that this law does not just cover complete rebreathers but also part.

If the part is too be used in a piece of life support equipment of any kind and does not have CE approval it is illegal to import it into a EU country, dont forget that every part in a rebreather must be CE approved not just the unit as a whole.

So even if you already have a KISS and need a spare part, if they believe it to be a Rebreather part and it is not CE approved then they will confiscate it.

Now as i said thats the impression i have got from speaking to various people who build and manafacture rebreathers, so perhaps someone could shed more light on the situation.

I know a lot of people who want to buy a Hammerhead for there inspiration and as of the 1/9/03 it is illegal to import that part into the country, so its doubtfull they will get it through customs, any ideas.

ATB

Laurence
 

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Can't you just get them to put a birthday card in there? Surely that's not illegal?

Just a sec, if I'm going to build a non CE marked rebreather (which I am allowed to do to speed my hasty demise) using plumbing fittings and an old ABLJ couldn't all the people that sell me parts (ie the plumbers merchants up the road) get screwed? I'd like to see them take that to court. The Sun would have a field day. And they'd probably make me out to be the bad guy for getting a decent working class plumbers merchant into trouble. All because I went to a grammar school, no doubt.

Couldn't AP valves get done over too? Now that would be funny. AP valves, the producer of the UK's only CE marked CCR get screwed for selling non-CE marked bits to me to build a non CE marked rebreather! Just a sec, it's not AP valves that make those pesky things any more, is it? Ambient Pressure diving or something?
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Adrian Kelland @ Sep. 09 2003,09:03)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finless @ Sep. 08 2003,15:54)]I would not be surprised if crusty bread is banned at some time in the future in case someone hurts their gums.
Never, the French make too much of it  
nope they'd ban crusty bread - because you can hurt your gums, the french would carry on making it, several years later they'd get told off by the EU and given a huge fine, they'd then do a bit of a grovel and no more fine and they'd carry on making crusty bread.

As if the french give a flying F about what the EU think
 

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Hi,

I got rather involved in this CE marking thing a few years back, and, as with anything to do with the EU it is vauge.

The bottom line, it it is a complete unit, i.e. a power adapter it has to be CE marked, if it is a component i.e. a plug for the power adapter it does not.

The question is, what is a component and what is a unit. It can be argued that anything that goes inside a box is a component, and anything that is attached to the box and therefore visible is a unit. The legislation is a minefield.

What happens is, you make your box, stick it in to be tested and they either pass it of fail it. When it passes, it is cast in stone, no modification is allowed without re-testing.

Stupid, since half the time they have no idea what they are looking at.

Andrew
 

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Wotcher Digger,
it's Ambient Pressure Diving FWIW - they'll sell you whatever you want out of their product range (cos it's all CE rated). They don't have to ask you what you're going to do with it though. Having said that, there's not much they can sell you if you want to go the homebuild route, short of the scrubber (loads of money), lid (really loads of money) or counterlungs (I think you know where I'm going now). Most of the parts on a CCR are readily available from all sorts of different mfrs - for the tricky bits you go to Do-It-All or Plumbing Supplies (also CE-rated  
 )
 
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