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Just seen this on local BBC text

10 year old girl airlifted to DDRC Plymouth following a diving incident at Budleigh Salterton (east of Exeter).

No further details yet, nor on MCA website.

Adrian

edit for BBC link

edit 29/10/03 14:40 for
The latest.

The girl surfaced with a headache, so the person in charge called the emergency services.

She is OK, the headache had all but gone by the time the chopper reached Plymouth. No further symptoms develped.

A good call on the 'better safe than sorry' principle. I am sure that some may think a call for emergency services for a headache is extreme, but just imagine the if the the headache HAD be DCI related, and nothing was done.
 

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bloody hell!!! I live down the road from there!!!
 

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Bloody hell - my thoughts in a nutshell. Your profile mentions Manchester, didn't know you were around here.

I sort of hope the incident is not related to a local shop, the guy who runs it seems a nice guy. Yet such an operation is more likely to cope with it.

Adrian
 

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wibble
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10 years old!  Christ i wouldnt trust a 10 year old to boil an egg, let alone anywhere near a pool with scuba gear.  Call me old fashioned, but i think kids should be a whole lot older to take up diving, like at least 14.  I worked with kids for waaaay too many years, and know what utter little buggers they can be.  You get good ones, and bad ones.  Sometimes in the same child.

Hope he/she is ok.
 

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I am based in manchester but am studying to be an outdoor instructor in Budleagh
 

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wibble
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I qualified as a BCU level 2 coach as soon as i was old enough (18).  Before that i was a BCU level 1.  I also worked sailing, raftbuilding, general outdoor keeping kids entertained stuff.  I have over 1000 hours teaching experience, and will probably end up a BSAC instructor too.  I know kids, and i know that you get 10 year olds who are so mature they astonish you.  I also know you get 16 year olds who dont know how to read or write, and throw hissy fits if they dont get their own way.  Diving aint the sport to push at kids.  Let me drown them for you, it takes a whole lot more effort since we try to keep them on the breathable side of the sea!  Oh im bitter and twisted aint i....
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Porg @ Oct. 28 2003,18:41)]10 years old!  Christ i wouldnt trust a 10 year old to boil an egg, let alone anywhere near a pool with scuba gear.  Call me old fashioned, but i think kids should be a whole lot older to take up diving, like at least 14.  I worked with kids for waaaay too many years, and know what utter little buggers they can be.  You get good ones, and bad ones.  Sometimes in the same child.

Hope he/she is ok.
Porg

I've always had mixed feelings with this issue.

We can never have an ethical study into the effects of scuba diving on children, so any ideas in this regard are likely to be speculation. I do wonder what the effects of pressure have on our 'change mechanism' during puberty, bone growth etc.

If a child is mentally mature enough and can carry the gear, then perhaps they should be allowed to dive. Can they be relied upon to rescue a casualty though? Physical strength etc.

I don't have my own children, but know that there are those I can have a conversation with, and those whose parents should have never been allowed to breed. It would be interesting to know if one of the childs parents dive, and if not, if they really understood the risks.

Any involved instructor will be putting themselves through hell at the moment, let alone what any HSE/Police investigation will do. I don't know about othe forces (Mark Davies might help here), but the Police dive team down here also investigate incidents, not just do the muddy river searches. At least they understand the issues.

Adrian
 

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So once on the surface, ditch weight, cut off the twinset. The shore recovery of yourself is the only real issue.

Adrian
 

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I have info on diving physiology for under 12s if anyone is interested I can e-mailit to them.  PM me with ur e-mail address and i will send on.

DD

P.s it is to big for the board

 

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wibble
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I weigh 13 stone.......cant ditch that.  (not through lack of trying tho).  And when push comes to shove, i dont care about the twins if im dead or cabbaged.  Personally i would not dive with a child under the age of about 14.  We consider driving cars dangerous so we dont let children do it (well we do strictly speaking, as anyone under the age of 18 is a child...but you know my point).  I think there are safer, and more productive sports to allow our children to do.
 

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I know what you're saying Porg, it's just that philately always will come a poor second to something (in a child's eye) as 'inspirational' (no pun intended) as SCUBA.

Hope the wee tyke's going to be OK.
 

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If I'm correct, the laws changed in Spain this year with regards to children scubadiving...The government decided that 16 is now entry level.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>I can'twait til my 2 boys are 10 ,,,,,, 2 years and 3 years time ,,,,,, i will let them do the PADI courses , if they are still intrested.

The eldest has been breathing compressed air for past 2 years and has got a max depth of 5 mts in his log book.???

<<<< Yes it was under the animal one night Paul, >>>>>


Andy
 

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Hope the kiddy is OK and pulls through. My own thoughts are that a child must dive with its parent, as a minimum, until old/safe enough to be considered self sufficient. I dont think a child with non-diving parents is really acceptable.
Matt
 

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wibble
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if i was ever silly enough to get myself pregnant, i would never let the resultant offspring dive until i knew they were old enough to deal with the intense pressure that an incident can place on an individual.  Last year i had a dive with a bloke who got his SMB caught up in his octopus and was dragged to the surface.  I was left alone, at the bottom of the north sea, in pants vis, knowing that above me my buddy was in real bother, possibly with barotrauma, and/or the bends.  I would never put a child through that, i would never trust a child not to forget their training and rush to the surface, especialy if the person having the problem was a parent.  

It is classed as abuse to put a child in a dangerous situation, to place them in an environment where they can get cold, or exhausted and from what i have seen the child protection procedures are somewhat lacking in some clubs.  Mixed changing rooms at pools are a nightmare for an instructor who knows their stuff about child protection.
 

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Hi all,

Well, best wishes to the child of course and fervant hopes for a succesful recovery.

Porg

Your point on changing rooms is a very interesting one, last night i was teaching at another club. The pool's changing room are completly open and as it happens a group of scouts were getting changed at the same time as us. I personally found this a very unacceptable situation. (Our pool has changing booths, but is unisex).

We as a branch do not let kids join unless accompanied by a diving parent, we are quite happy to train both. We would not let anyone under 17 ish join without this.

We do have one 14 year old who dives with his father (A DL and Assistant Instructor). Personally i cannot wait to teach my kids to dive, but i will review this as they get older, and how i am going to do it. I will not be pushing them though, but would love to be in Julia and Steve's positions.

With best wishes for this youngster, Dive Safe,

Paul
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Adrian Kelland @ Oct. 28 2003,18:55)]Any involved instructor will be putting themselves through hell at the moment, let alone what any HSE/Police investigation will do. I don't know about othe forces (Mark Davies might help here), but the Police dive team down here also investigate incidents, not just do the muddy river searches. At least they understand the issues.
<font color='#000080'>Adrian,

We don't get any diving incidents in inner city Manchester so I don't have any personal experience. However, I have looked into the subject out of interest and can answer your question.

It all depends on the end result of the incident. If it proves fatal then it falls into the hands of the police who will conduct an investigation on behalf of the coroner. Otherwise, it is an industrial accident under the preserve of HSE who will conduct their own investigation. The police involvement stops at ensuring there are no suspicious circumstances (such as sabotage of equipment) and making sure the HSE ball is set rolling. If there are suspicious circumstances then there will likely be a joint investigation with police looking into any criminal matters while HSE go for the dive operation and their safety procedures.

As for 10 year olds diving; well, come on? I can't believe anyone even considers it. I know there are people here who dive with their kids, and their kids are here too. The youngest I think is Bethi who is about 12, if I remember right (and a rather mature 12 aswell). That would be about the limit for me, and I'm with Matt; they should only dive with their parents. If their parents are not divers how can they give properly informed consent to their children diving.

I'd say it is for the individual parents to decide whether their children are up to it, but 10 is too young, surely. These kids are still in junior school and generally up to that point have had very sheltered and trouble free lives, (certainly those whose parents can afford to send them diving!). Consequently they have little experience of being under pressure or having to deal with difficult situations.

Once kids get to high school their personality develops rapidly. How many parents do you hear complaining that their kids were angels before they went to high school, but look at them now? A couple of years having their edges knocked off and perhaps then they may have the social and psychological tools to deal with a crisis.

Another matter of concern is whether the kids really want to do it. Last time I was at Stoney I saw this young lad who was about 10 or 11. He was only about 4' 2" tall. I saw him coming out of the water, looking freezing cold in a semi-dry suit and barely able to stand in the kit he was wearing. He looked absolutely miserable with that "I'm determined not to cry" look on his face. Now that was child abuse.

In any case, I don't think 10 year olds have any chance of understanding the risks. At that age you have virtually no concept of death and believe that you're imortal. You can tell them that "it's very, very important not to do that" but they'll never fully understand.

This girl may be a very singular illustration of the point. I sincerely hope for herslf and her parents that she pulls through. One thing for sure, I bet her parents question their earlier decisions and never let her dive again.
 

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wibble
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Teaching kayaking means i did a lot of pool work.  Mixed changing rooms are terrible, indeed, any changing room, even a car park can prove problematic.  

If a child gets cold, their fingers go numb.  They need a hand getting out of the drysuit.  Even in most clubs, there seems to be a lot more blokes.  What if it was a 16 year old girl?  She is still a child.  
Good practice says that children should have a same sex instructor.  This is not possible sometimes, but should be taken into account.  On any trip in a minibus involving children (under 18's), there should be a female adult present if there are female children.  Adults should not give lifts to children alone, and even in extreme cases of sticking to the rules by the letter, should not be in the same room as a child who is getting changed.  This can be a problem if thats where the bog is and your back teeth are floating.

Children and the laws affecting their welfare are complex, and affect every club which offers training.  The response i got from my club was "we dont teach kids" - they do, 14 year olds train for their ocean diver.  Im CRB checked - are your instructors??
 

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<font color='#000F22'>Hope the kiddie's OK - as an ex-teacher I wouldn't let anyone under 16 anywhere near scuba.

Kids can be so mature one minute and then irrational the next not a good mix under water.

However, if parents want their offspring to do this then it's up to them.

I won't dive with anyone under-16.

This is only my personal view, based  - I hope - on rational reasoning. Sometime's I don't think it hurts kids to be told - you'll have to wait.
 
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