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Click and support your firefighters!!

3K views 52 replies 18 participants last post by  Gavin Yates 
#1 ·
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Well it's a topical subject and even if you don't want to be "drawn in" or voice an opinion as a member of the public you should as divers.In any incident where the EMS are involved with a diving incident the Brigade will attend if required.Now this may occur more than you may think,the first port of call for trapped people is..the Brigade.When kids fall in reservoirs etc.the first people to begin searching is the Brigade,who will you call when your car sets afire..with your full twinset in the boot? These folks do much much more than put fires out,and they do it with less than adequate equipment(eg.the hydraulic cutting gear on appliances)and often without adequate training(eg.water rescues,I know I've done training sessions for them,gratis)
Now they're aware of the deficiencies in kit,training etc,and still they're always there,ready to go into Christ knows what, in case WE need them.And they don't do it for the bloody money,that much is obvious.I work in Further Education at the minute where tutors get approx £18 an hour.It's not an ideal comparison I know,but it does put some things into perspective,altough Teaching in some areas can be rough Teachers don't knowingly face death every time they enter the classroom,Firefighters do.
As a Commercial diver we would'nt bother working for £50 a day,but we're happy to let Firefighters be there to pull us out of the mire,24/7,for not much more.Some people actually have the gall to critisise the strike action,would they do it?I don't know of one Firefighter,and I know a couple,who wanted to strike,I beleive if they were that way inclined they'd be working on a car production line somewhere(no offence intended there).In addition,even though they are on strike,they're still leaving pickets when lives are at risk.
The Govt says it can't afford to pay a decent wage as there is'nt the funds available in that sector.Having spent over 8 years working in the "public sector" maybe they should be a little less idealistic with their ideas and spending and put the money where it's needed - and deserved.2 million to rebuild a Holding Centre for asylum seekers,that they've already burnt down once(there's got to be some irony there).Millions spent "rehabilitating" drug abusers,criminals,paedophiles etc, etc.I ask you? Meanwhile many Firefighters hold down 2 jobs,not just for more money,but just to get by.
Sure,everyone deserves a chance,those who'll risk everything for YOU surely deserve more though?
 
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#2 ·
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Well we have at least one fireman on the boards (Andy 2Tanx)so you won't get to much disagreement on your points. Successive Governments have always treated the Public Sector something like " you don't like the pay? then get another job then!".  

Ironically, we seem to have plenty enough money to go to war in distant foreign lands (for as yet ill-defined reasons) but not for public safety, funny that innit?

The reasoning seems to be that if the firemen get a raise, then nurses et al will want one too and apparently there isn't money for that (we could start by geting rid of one of Johnny-Two-Jags cars ?) .

For comparison re public spending: the prison population at 70 odd thousand is now far higher (about 15,000 more) than a few years ago (1996) and it costs about £15 -18,000 per annum to keep one person banged up
so... 15,000 people multiplied by a minimum £15,000 = £30,000,000 more public spending than in 1996.

So the money is there when it suits government policy.

(Edited by Steve W at 1:23 pm on Nov. 25, 2002)
 
#3 ·
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Firefighters?! Just a bunch of scrounging, work-shy layabouts!!!!

Err..sorry, I'm on the correct meds now!

Bottom line is: would I enter a burning 'anything' to look for persons (alive or dead), stay with a fire until the seat of it is out and it doesn't rekindle, make sure the integrity of the site is secured so that investigators can check for arson, climb rediculously high ladders and secure trapped people on the nth-teenth floor - and bring them down safely, recover bodies from a motorway pile-up, try and get a drip into someone who's legs are trapped and their head crushed whilst they're screaming what remains of their life away - and just about any other nasty job that needs to be done as a public service?? And all for the princely sum of £21K and change a year???

Now let me think about that for 2 split nano-seconds. NO!! I can't think of a polite way to say 'Fcuk off', can you?

In reality, what's being asked for is a raise from £6.50 an hour to £8 and hour - and yet Gordon "The Iron (yet tediously DULL) Chancellor" Brown can't find that in his piggy bank?? He's been boring the arse off anyone that will listen for the last 5 years on just how 'frugal' he's managed to be in saving the country billions! So where's this money now it's needed??

Sorry, Blair (not that I voted for the tw@t in the 1st place), Brown and their ilk have just done the biggest U-turn (and dumped all over their once public sector 'brothers-in-arms-in-the-unions' in the process) on record.

The iron chancellor is beginning to show signs of rust me thinks. Blair's press-conference today saw him back-peddaling like a JAMF and him embarrassment was palpable.

So the solid body of 'working class' (what ever that means nowadays) voters that made the rump of his 97 election victory will see this as betrayal and possibly how they might get treated when they take their own demands to him in future??

Ironically, the 'comfortable middle class' (again, what ever that means nowadays) that was so happy to swing over to him in droves to oust the Tories has seen New Labour (or should that read 'New Favour'?) in its true colours - and they don't like the colours.

Other than Andy2Tanx, Nitrox and my mate in Glasgow (also called Andy) and Mark Eaves (a PADI instructor at Probe Diving in Oldham), there are rucks of fire-fighters the country-wide that shall be re-examining where they place their 'X' at the next election.

Blair would do well to re-watch Todd Browning's 1931 film classic 'Frankenstein'; the part where the villagers storm the castle and 'remove' the Baron - their once benefactor.
 
#4 ·
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It could of course open a can of worms.I do remember though how the Nurses fought some years ago for a pay rise,in fact the RCN is making rumblings again apparently(and the RCN is about as hard line as a WRVS Knitting convention).Does the UK have a monopoly on treating it's vital public sector workers like shite?It seems that while Nurses,Firefighters etc.will,mainly by vocation, be there to help people,then successive Govts.pay them dire wages(proportionately)because that vocational motivation/dedication(or whatever)keeps them working so as not to put anyone at risk.
It just makes me really angry.Last year,I attended ROSPA's conference on water safety,on behalf of a water rescue team and was connected with water rescues and the Brigade's involvement.It was'nt until I was approached by a Group Commander(?) from London who had been given the task of looking at the same issues that the picture began to become clear.The Brigade hardly has the funds to man and equip itself to fight fires,never mind looking at anything else.There were various "specialists" there,by invitation,attempting to flog the gear the Brigade "needed" for water rescues.These began with some very mediocre suits from a high street recreational mnftr for eg.The bigger picture was on the whole a farce,with misinformation,ignorance,squabbling and shoulder slides on a scale found only in govt.management circles
Point being,that no matter how farcical these issues are,and how poorly they're paid,thee Firefighters continue to be there  for us.
As for the cost of keeping people in Prison,it's outrageous.I worked in Forensic Psychiatry and the money spent on accomodation assesment,treatment,drug regimes and rehab on people whose only contribution to society is negative is beyond beleif.
Surely our priorities are beyond beleif? The firefighters must on the whole be amongst if not the most loved and respected group of workers in the country.I wonder if the Govts.failed to recognise that.It's not so much the raise issue that I find annoying,it's the poor salary and thus lack of recognition by the Govt to these guys(and girls).
Take care all,Hobby.

(Edited by Hobby at 1:43 pm on Nov. 25, 2002)
 
#5 ·
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I agree guys, modern values are completely messed up; you can make 50k as a mobile phone salesman but get 21k to risk your life entering a burning building. And don't get me started on today's obsession with f***ing "celebrities".
Celebrities and mobile phones - burn the lot of 'em I say!

It's even more galling considering they were about to settle for 16% until the government stuck their noses in, now its back to square one.
Let's not forget the paramedics too- they train very hard to do what most people seem to think is a glorified taxi driving job.

PS Bren, I thought the original 1931 Frankenstein was directed by James Whale and Todd Browning directed Dracula?

(Edited by Steve W at 2:40 pm on Nov. 25, 2002)
 
#6 ·
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It's thanks to firefighters that I'm alive and well today, after pulling me out of a house fire when I was 5.  They're not worth a 40% rise - double it I say.  If the government can award themselves huge pay rises, then others should get it.  Pity they don't practice what they preach.
 
#7 ·
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My father and brother are both fire fighters and on strike and i agree they should be paid more but I risk my life day in day out and I got a 3% rise this year plus all my days off have been cancelled. So no days off and sh*t pay its not just fire fighters who get crap pay all public sector workers are in the same boat. moan over I hope they get a large pay rise.
 
#8 ·
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The way the firefighters have been treated is as unfair as it is politically stupid.

The Sun appears to be backing the gov't in its refusal to deal adequately with the pay issue saying that the ecomony can't afford large wage rises in the public sector.

Maybe if News International (the publisher's of the Sun and News of the World) paid more than a derisery ammount of tax then we'd all be able to have pay rises. Maybe if Labour Lord Levy paid more than the pittance that his business interest coughed up to the treasury last year (less than 5k) then teachers, nurses, paramedics, firefighters and other essential services would have adequate housing and standards of living.

Since 1980 the richest 5% are some 73% better off. You know the rest yourself.

Since coming to power the Labour government have cut corporation tax to the lowest rate in 50 years.

The Tories would not make the situation any better, in fact they would probably have sacked ther entire workforce and enforced military "no strike" contracts.

What can you do?

1. If you have a Labour MP - take over your local Labour party. Most CLPs are made up of the same faces that go to the meetings every now and then. Get thirty friends together and you could almost seize power. If your MP does not support public service workers then get him/her deselected. It takes time but it can be done.
2. Make it difficult for 'em. If you hear that a cabinet minister is coming to your town, get some mates together and f*ck up his photo opportunity. Be loud, be funny, take the agenda and make it yours. If he wants to open a school ask him why the cleaners at that school on a contracted out job earn less than they did before, ask him why the teachers will have to live miles away from the school because the can't afford local housing costs.

Do it right in front of the cameras and "p*ss on his chips" as it were.

Don't give up on democracy. It's still the best of the available options.
 
#9 ·
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Oh well - just to flame things a bit (bad pun and not meant to p*ss everyone off) but I do not think Firemen deserve the so called 40% that has been bandied about - and I`m afraid that holding people to ransom is not acceptable.

I have a lot of respect for these guys, its a difficult job. Yes they should get more, but then shouldn`t everyone??

Are they more valuable than the police, nurses, army etc etc.

I beleive that in life everyone has choices - if you dont like it then do something else - thats why I changed jobs many times to support my wife, kids and improve our lifestyle - shit, thats how I can afford to dive etc etc!!

It doesn`t help, of course, that people are apparently queueing for fireman jobs - by all account 40 per vacancy - all willing to work for the current wage. It doesn`t also help that the Government are acting like dicks in the Management of the strike/negotiations - which could have been averted by the publicised 15% offer

At the end of the day we are driven by market forces, there are no jobs for life any more. You dont get summit for nowt nowadays - sadly

No offence to anyone - just a different viewpoint
 
#10 ·
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"Are they more valuable than the police, nurses, army etc etc."  Simple answer, no we are not more valuable than the aforementioned groups, and at no time have we the firefighters claimed we are.  However, it is not up to firefighters to fight for better wages for all these groups.  That is the responsibility of theirs alone.  As for comparing us with the police, next year a 15 year constable will earn approx £34000 a year including housing allowance and bonus, not to mention overtime.  Are police worth that much more than firefighters, nurses, paramedics etc?


"I beleive that in life everyone has choices - if you dont like it then do something else - thats why I changed jobs many times to support my wife, kids and improve our lifestyle - shit, thats how I can afford to dive etc etc!!"  thats correct we all have choices.  Its a good job then that all the firefighters dont pack their jobs in and leave the country without firecover permanently then isnt it?  What would happen then?

"people are apparently queueing for fireman jobs - by all account 40 per vacancy"  and exactly how many of these 40 people are actually suitable for the job?

"we are driven by market forces, there are no jobs for life any more"  a sad fact of life that we are all tied to the money factor.  But has it occured to people that the fire service will NEVER make money, but rather continue to cost the country x amount of pounds every year.  Rather like an insurance policy.  When weas the last time you got money back from your insurance?  The fire service is just a big insurance policy for the country.  you hope never to need it, but when people do, then we are there every day of the year. how much is that worth?

So people, put your thoughts forward.  how much are firefighters worth?  10k, 20k, or more?
 
#11 ·
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Andy,

I think my views are very clear on this issue. And I think it's easy to understand.

The old maxim of "you get what you pay for" really does count.

As divers we probably wouldn't use a regulator that we knew was slightly dodgy but cheap.

That would be dangerous and a false economy.

Likewise when I have a fire I want the best of the best turning up. When I'm stuck in a car I want an expert cutting me out.

There are lots of people that would do a firefighters job for 20k but would they be the best?

I know many people who have left the teaching profession who were brilliant committed educationalists. One guy sells insurance now - he used to teach anatomy to medical students. He's on double the dough but what a loss to the profession.

Low wages will not deter entrants to firefighting but what it will do is (after the taxpayer has paid for all the training) is not keep people in the job and they'll do what Kirky said and go and get another job leaving behind either those who are just committed to their job and accept crap wages or the one's that couldn't get a job elsewhere.

Frankly when I'm stuck in the building I don't want the guy who's rescuing me to be worrying about how to make his rent that month.

I think the FBU made a mistake with the 40% figure as it's not achievable in one go and a PR nightmare but the 16% that was on the table months ago would suit both sides and bingo - strike over.

The "modernisation" that the gov't are talking about are really "service cuts" - when it comes to public safety can we accept second best?

So what's a trained firefighter worth? I dunno but I don't think that between 25 and 30k is excessive. I also would be prepared to pay more tax to ensure that all public service workers get a fairer deal.
 
#12 ·
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Nige, I didn't realise that you had gotten a 396 rise, cor you must be rolling in it


How's this for an idea, the emergency services Fire, Ambluance, thats paramedics ('cos they get about £18,000 and year and do they ever earn it) and the filth all get huge pay rises 40 percent plus.

I can even tell the Prime minister how to fund it!
Simple, pay the lawyers, including his wife, (who as far as I am aware has never saved anyones life) less out of the legal aid budget. Should leave loads and have a tax cut as well

Seriously though what sort of world do we live in where Lawyers earn more than the PM, who can, by the way can start a Nuclear war. Yet the Medics and firemen (people) who say live each day get a pitence.

You could blame the Police I suppose, they are responsble for everything else
 
#13 ·
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One last question, andy2tanks, have you got any applications for the Police job?
Seriously, I want to join, how can I get paid that much?
Or is this one of those propaganda thingy's, you know the sort Gorbels used to spread?
I remember seeing pictures of the Army bomb disposal vans with the registrations blacked out and Scargil saying the army was on the picket lines

Not true I'm afraid
Still a good tale though
 
#14 ·
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Andy - I find it difficult to disagree with your comments, or those made by Gavin. Problem is where does the trade off end ? and as you say `at what cost`

Like most people I only `know` what I read in the press or hear on TV - yes I have some mates who have worked as firemen and they tell me (again I can only judge on what I hear) that conditions have remained the same since the last dispute 25 years ago. Is it true that overtime is not allowed ??, for example and is this part of the `modernisation` package ??

My view is that the government seem to have lost the chance of the `win win` last week when they vetoed the 16%. I suspect that the fire brigade will be seen as the floodgate to everyone else.

The Government have made a mistake, but I cant help thinking that the Fire Union went too hard for the 40%

Like all disputes a compromise will have to be struck. Am I happy to pay more to support this, yes but not to the tune of 40% and certainly not for a deal that doesn`t build in improvements in services.

Again, no offence to anyone, we all have the right to make choices - including fighting for a better deal as long as both sides dont get immersed in dogma - surely the war is more important than the battle.
 
#15 ·
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cut and pasted off elsewhere.

We are worth 40%.

That must be true, because the people that said it are the same ones that
said the MP's were worth 45%, and they got paid.

So we reduce the number of fire fighters by 40%.  Simple.

I say we shut the stations around Westminster first though!

I'll be saving life only though, and letting the bricks and mortar burn.  I
won't be getting any cats out of trees either!


Next - Modernisation (1)
Thats easy too.  Let's accept that we should attend Road Traffic Accidents!

My plumber wanted £55 to walk through the door, and £29 for each 15mins
thereafter, so.......

2 fire engines plus a Rescue Unit x crew of 5 (each)  x £55 = £825 call out,
and £435 per 15 minutes.  Sounds reasonable to me!  Just tag it on the
bottom of any insurance claim.

That would add up to say 5% salary increase.


Next - Modernisation (2)
That's easy too!  Lets agree to get people out of lifts!

We do loads of those.  Let's be charitable and charge a mere £100 per time.
2,000 on my ground / 4 watches / 7 per watch = £7,100 for me!


Next - Modernisation (3)
Thats easy too!  I've had this great idea called 'Community Fire Safety'.

Any time that were not attending fires or charging  £580 per hour, we could
put up smoke alarms.  The local council wanted to charge £107.00 to fit one
in an old-age-pensioner's house.  I say let competition decide, so lets
undercut the council and charge the OAP's a mere £100.  It would take me
about 5 mins to put one up with sticky-pads, and 5 mins between jobs makes 6
an hour, ie £600 per hour.

I'm lazy and get up late like John Prescott, so just one alarm per day (91
days) would add over 42% to my income!


THE BOTTOM LINE

21,500    basic
 8,600    the 40% I deserve, just like the MP's
  1,000    from RTA's (5%)
  7,100    from shut-in-lifts
  9,100    from fitting smoke alarms
----------
47,300    per annum!
----------
 
#16 ·
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regarding the modernisation thing we are getting so much media attention on at the moment.

i have trained almost to paramedic standard.  i hold an emergency responder instructing ticket.  i have an instructor qualification in rta and casualty management.  this includes keeping up with technological advances in the motor industry.  i have larnt how to deal with air bags, seat belt tensioners, impact bars and a host of other things that were not present in cars 25 years ago.  i am qualified in line rescues, water rescues (obviously!), chemical incidents, inner cordon management, defibrillation units and the use of those, which are carried on all appliances in west yorkshire, i can use highly powerful hydraulic cutting gear which was not present on pumps 25 years ago, back then they used hacksaws and crowbars, i use thermal image cameras to find casualties in heat and smoke faster, i have been taught to initiate the first stages of the command and control system at major fires, something that has only been in existence for around 8 years, and much more new equipment and procedures that have magically appeared in the british fire service over the years without the brigade becoming modernised.  how can this be so.  to hear blair talk you would think that none of these advancements have made a difference to the job.  according to him and his spin doctors the fire service has stood still for 25 years.  not so.

make no mistake about it. modernisation means cuts in the fire service as a whole.  your local fire station will be closed at night and if your house burns then the men coming to help you will probably have already worked a shift already that day, how can that be a step forward?  
 
#18 ·
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does anyone remember the government earier this year, simply voting themselves a big fat 40% pay rise, plus a free pension scheme (30,000+ per year without having to contribute into)?
i can, but it was all hushed up just before the 3 month holiday the mps always have.
if big tony and the boys can have 40%, then so should the firemen.
just my 2p worth
 
#20 ·
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Well,what can you add?One common thread here is that people feel that the public sector workers are underpaid anyway.Add this to the fact that the Govt's bleating last night was centered on the beleif that if they give the Firefighters a rise the other public sector workers will then demand more(never mind so called modernisation,look what it's done for the Forces).Well then yes they probably will.
Tjhe Police are about the best off in this equation,it is after all prudent perhaps for a Govt.to keep it's Police force "sweet".Nurses got a rise at some point in the past.The people who seem to have gone ignored for a while is the Firefighters,I recognise that Paramedics have too(I was going to apply in the past until I saw the wage,I went into nursing instead).One can only presume that the Paramedics may well be watching with interest the current events.Maybe the Govt.has realised this and is aware that the repercussions from this dispute will affect many public service sector workers.Perhaps they have awakened a sleeping giant in effect.
It is somewhat concerning that even in a so-called Democracy to see how the Media is effectively steered by the Govt.to sway public opinion.In many cases,media coverage is biased indeed even to the most unobservant.Worse still some issues are banned(there is an effective journalistic block on matters concerning stories connected to the CSA for eg.)It is my fear that the Govt.will "use" the media(as it does already)to weaken the Public's support for the firefighters,and portray them in a poor light.Take care,Hobby.
 
#21 ·
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Come on Hobby - "It's all a media cover-up"

Many of the newspapers will push a political line. The Sun, Times, FT, Express, Mail etc - we all know that. In the same way that the Grauniad has taken a line.

Incidently the Mirror has supported the firefighters up to a point despite their usual defence of New Labour.

Broadcast media have reported pretty fairly and in more depth than one would have thought possible even 10 years ago.

As for stories about the CSA being blocked in some kind of cover up - that's just tosh. I covered the CSA on three occaisons for Newsnight and despite proving incompetance, unfairness and mismanagement nothing happened. Not Newsnight's fault, not the BBC's fault it's the government's fault. The reason it doesn't get covered very often is not enough people care therefore it drops off the news agenda. Harsh but true ... get enough people complaining about it loud enough and bingo it's back.

It's really easy to blame the media for everything but there is certainly no cover-up going on.

Shooting messengers is easy ... incidently a senior reporter on a weekly newspaper is most likely to be earning less that 15k.
 
#22 ·
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I ain't gonna comment on the pay deal - been there already!

But...having been brought up in an area where the fire service was made up with a large number of retained firemen I don't understand why there is a split so large between full-timers and those who do another job, and get paid paid even less for the fire service work they do.

There are reports from retained firemen of Scab letters with FBU postmarks on, of damage to equipment and sabotage in stations.  Even if the strike action is justified, is this behaviour?

Why aren't the majority of retained fire-fighters supporting the strike?

(Andy2tanx - this is a genuine question, all previous conversations aside
)
 
#23 ·
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Sorry Gav maybe it came across wrong,not suggesting a "cover up" as such but more a bias.Having said that though I would'nt be suprised if there are "cover ups",restrictions etc.to do with national security etc.I remember whemn I worked in Forensics I dealt with many high profile cass and liased a lot with the Home Office.I remember commenting in one case conference about media effects on a cas,onkly to be assured by the Home Office rep.that this issue would no longer cause concern.Pretty much like the outsry when the Bulger kids were released,there seemed to be lots of press coverage which suddenly stopped,not peter out as one would expect.I used the CSA as an examle,considering it's reputation and some 55 linked suicides there seems to be little on it.If any other Govt.body was said to be responsible for 55 deaths there'd be #### to play.The Sunday Times did a big thing on it in 96 which got me thinking,Baroness H.Kennedy et.al.are in responsible positions but by nature are politically biased.After that suicides relating or possibly to them were giver little or no coverage.Watch the coverage re.the Army Deepcut deaths "fade away" now too.
What prompted my point however was during the 1st strike action the other week.Our local news programmes made a big point of saying how many fires etc.had occured during the action and"how people were at risk".What they failed to to expand on was how firefighters were leaving pickets when lives were at risk.I'm not totally convinced,I beleive that to a degree and through no fault of it's own,the media has to present certain things how the Govt.wants it too(obviously not all!).Cheers,Hobby.
 
#24 ·
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Here's a thought - from the Daily Record

EACH ONE A HERO... SO WHO GETS THE CASH? Nov 26 2002


FIREMAN

STARTING SALARY: £16,941. After six months £17,727.

HOURS: Average 42 hours per week

SECOND JOB: It is estimated up to 70 per cent of firefighters have a second job. Popular second jobs include painting and decorating, undertaking and lorry driving - fire engine drivers have advanced HGV training.

UNION: Most firefighters are members of the Fire Brigades Union.

DANGER FACTOR: Two firefighters have been killed in active duty in Scotland in the last ten years. Thousands are assaulted on call outs each year.


SQUADDIE

STARTING SALARY: £11,500 once they have completed training as a Class 3 soldier.

HOURS: Can be 24 hours a day, seven days a week if on operations.

SECOND JOB: Can apply to commanding officer for second job. Can only be on a very casual basis, bouncer etc. Prospects limited as they can be called away at any time. Current pace of operations makes it virtually impossible.

UNION: Not allowed to join a union.

DANGER FACTOR: Considerable. Can be sent to the frontline at short notice. They are sent to hot spots including Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Northern Ireland.


NURSE

STARTING SALARY: A newly qualified nurse after three years' training starts on £16,005.

HOURS: Full-time nurses in the NHS work 37 and a half hours a week.

SECOND JOB: Research shows that 24 per cent of nurses in Scotland have a second job.

UNION: Most nurses belong to Unison or the Royal College of Nursing

DANGER FACTOR: Four in 10 Scottish nurses have been harassed or assaulted by patients or their families. Nurses also deal with patients suffering from contagious diseases, putting them at potential risk.


PARAMEDIC

STARTING SALARY: £21,000

HOURS: 42 per week

UNION: Most are members of Unison

SECOND JOB: Are allowed second job with permission. Estimated up to 30 per cent do second job.

DANGER: Verbal abuse affects 100 to 200 paramedics in Scotland every year. Serious assault fewer than 10 a year.

They have to save lives on a daily basis and drive at high speed to jobs.

They are increasingly targeted by malicious thugs who make crank calls and vandalise their vehicles.


TEACHER

STARTING SALARY: £16,664, although past relevant experience can see them placed higher up the scale.

HOURS: Contracted to work 35 hours a week.

SECOND JOB: No statistics on how many teachers have a second job.

UNION: Yes.

DANGER FACTOR: In 1999 -2000 almost 84 working days were lost because of assaults. In that time, 6.1 per cent of teachers experienced abuse. More than 97 per cent of the cases took place during school hours. Out of all the cases, 61 per cent involved physical violence.


POLICEMAN

STARTING SALARY: On commencing service £18,264 and after completion of initial training period £20,436

HOURS: Police are contracted to work 40 hours per week, although average hours worked are between 44 and 48 hours per week.

SECOND JOB: Police officers are not allowed to have a second job.

UNION: Police officers are not allowed to join a union. Representation provided by the Police Federation.

DANGER FACTOR: Since 1992, there have been eight police officers killed on duty. Thousands more are injured.


So, putting on my Devil's Advocate hat (as no one has defended the Govt. Please note, this is not an indication of whom I support - firemen btw) can a 40% increase really be justified by Mr. A. Gilchrist? Call me crazy but I'm always suspicious of anyone who has a poster of Che Guervera in his office and swans off to a £149 a night hotel when the firemen started their first strike.

So 16% could have settled it? Call me crazy but if the FBU has fallen that far behind why did Mr. Gilchrist (I have no idea how long he has headed the FBU) not ask for a more moderate (say 4%) rise over the last 4 years?

So what now? If the fire brigade get the large raise (I've not had none for a few years either) what stops the rest of the public sector following suit? A squaddie could be considered to have a more dangerous job than a fireman (albeit less freqently are they facing mortal combat thankfully) for half of what the FBU wants a new fireman to have. Admittedly this is a slightly dumbious example due to the higher disposable fraction of income due to food and accomodation being subsidised - and is it dangerous when not in warfare? Deep Cut ring any bells?

And of course, there's a "No-strike" rule....

I shant go on, I just thought someone should maybe put a voice for the other side - personally I'd give the lot a starting salery of 20k and tax the crap out of anyone earning 100k+.

Dear Mr. Williams,

Congrats on your £80,000,000 deal, please give us £79,000,000 in tax
 
#25 ·
Imported post

News agendas change but I assure you that I'll keep pressure up over Deepcut.

That whole thing stinks to high heaven.

You are right in saying that the press does co-operate with the police. As a young radio reporter I sat on a story for a month to ensure an arrest and subsequent conviction of a murderer.

If I'd broadcast it would have prejudiced the trial and was the right thing to do at the time.

One thing is for sure and that's the internet is a brilliant tool for allowing non-journalists to report. We might disagree but there is still chance for informed debate.

And I say woo and yaa to that.

Take care
 
#26 ·
Imported post

I must admit Gav that journalism has always interested me.Personally I feel that many are wrongly tarnished by the reputation of the few.A couple acheive public acceptance eg,Kate Addy etc.but most people think of Sunday Tabloids etc and it's a shame.We see many cases where without investigative journalism many things could have gone amiss or wrongs not righted.All the journalists I've met have been sincere interesting people with a high regard for what they do.How did you become involved?(Jesus i've just read that back and it sounds terrible!It's a genuine question,not a query on your sincerity!Quick edit there!)Good luck with the Deep Cut issue too,there are things that should'nt be allowed to be forgotten.Regards,Hobby.

(Edited by Hobby at 2:29 pm on Nov. 26, 2002)
 
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