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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
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Im toying with the idea of changing my rig, Ive been reading Kevin Gurrs book from the bottom up.
The rig goes like this - main reg on bungie around neck supplied from the left valve (looking from the back of tanks to front) also on this post your SPG and wing inflation. The reason for this - if you are doing overhead and penetrations ect this is the post that would roll to the off position, so breathing off it you will know if it has or has not, if you were using the dir method and it rolled off and you had to donate your main reg to a OOA diver your back up reg would give no air. The secondry reg (with 2 meter hose)and donating reg would be stowed looped up between two bits of bungie on your back plate with the reg connected to a octo holder on your right chest d ring, this is the one you would donate in a emergency to a OOA diver.

Answers on a postcard please

Safe Diving

Simon

(Edited by simon at 3:32 pm on Jan. 25, 2003)
 

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Well, my first thoughts are:
Can you quickly and easily re-stow the long hose by yourself with this setup?
Do you do penetration dives where it's possible to roll off the reg? If not, it's not worth configuring for it.
 

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If your buddy is OOA you don`t need to restow that reg............. until you are on the boat.

Regards
Michael

(Edited by Scuba1 at 9:04 pm on Jan. 25, 2003)
 

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My set up is very similar - main on the left post with surgical tubing together with an SPG and wing inflator. On the right I've got the suit inflator, another SPG (some might disagree) and the donating reg / “non” free flow reg with 2 m hose.

There are elastic "socks" where one can stow away the long hose. I used to use one but what I found handier is a Velcro loop on the right shoulder of my harness. I can easily keep the long hose and even repack it that way. In my case I use a single bladder OMS with the IQ pack so the right Velcro ""holder"" (don't know its proper name), comes in handy for that. It's right there and I don't even use a reg retainer.

The only thing that makes me scratch my head is bending the hose. That part I don't like but it is less likely to get it tangled with some thing else, this way. I had some hard time when I’m caring a canister light or while I have a reel with a deployed bag, etc. Every time I experimented with passing the hose over my head there was always some thing: At times even the snorkel got in the way.

Lawrence
 

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</span>
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Quote: from Scuba1 on 8:58 pm on Jan. 25, 2003
If your buddy is OOA you don`t need to restow that reg............. until you are on the boat.
<span =''>
True. IF he's OOA.

But if he just drops his main DV and can't find it quickly enough... or if his tank gets rolled closed and he thinks he's OOA... or if you're diving with stages and it's only his backgas that's gone...

There ARE situations where your buddy will take your DV but hand it back to you before you surface. If you suddenly find yourself with 2m of hose and no way to restuff it, you've got a problem.

More likely, tho, is that the hose simply slips out of it's holder and you have to get it back in. It can happen, it has to be dealt with.

I wouldn't dive with a long hose I couldn't re-deploy by myself in a mater of seconds.
 

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I'd say that the Gurr method should only be used by divers who:

A) Dive solo
& or
B) Are unsure how their equipment works and are unable to spot and correct a simple problem underwater.

That may sound a bit harsh but if he assumes you can't spot a left post roll-off how can you then be expected to spot that you forgot to turn on your right post where you're bungeed and stowed long hose is connected? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Dive safe

Mark.

(Edited by Mark at 1:10 am on Jan. 27, 2003)


(Edited by Mark at 1:34 am on Jan. 27, 2003)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
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(but if he assumes you can't spot a left post roll-off how can you then be expected to spot that you forgot to turn on your right post )
?

HOW DO YOU SPOT A LEFT POST ROLL OFF ?? When you are breathing off the right and donaiting the right,every, say two min's thro the dive check the reg ? don't think so.

(Can you quickly and easily re-stow the long hose by yourself with this setup? ) If you need to get the hose out you probably are going home, even if it was not needed all you do is wrap it round you neck till you get out, like most of you are doing now.

(Do you do penetration dives where it's possible to roll off the reg? If not, it's not worth configuring for it. )

Have you tried it ??, Prob NO , why not try diffrent configrations, there is only one best configriation, that is the one thats right for you.

Why dont some of you open your eyes and look at your kit and ask yourself does it work for you easily, or have you copied someone and got used to it.???

Regards Simon
 

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</span>
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Quote: from simon on 9:59 am on Jan. 27, 2003[brHave you tried it ??, Prob NO , why not try diffrent configrations, there is only one best configriation, that is the one thats right for you.

Why dont some of you open your eyes and look at your kit and ask yourself does it work for you easily, or have you copied someone and got used to it.???

Regards Simon
<span =''>
Wise words indeed.  In fact, that is one of the reasons I intend to go back to the inverted business.  It works for me better than the 'correct' way.  

Although it could be said that the only reason I am so keen on it is because I copied someone (the fire brigade) and got used to it at work.  hmmm.
 

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"HOW DO YOU SPOT A LEFT POST ROLL OFF ?? When you are breathing off the right and donaiting the right,every, say two min's thro the dive check the reg ? don't think so. "

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Your valve will only roll off if it comes into contact with something. If you bash your valves, check the DV. If it works, it hasn't rolled off. You only check for a roll-off when one may have occurred. Rarely in penetration dives, never in open water.

"If you need to get the hose out you probably are going home"

No you're not. See above.

"even if it was not needed all you do is wrap it round you neck till you get out, like most of you are doing now."

If you're resigned to doing it that way anyway, what exactly are the pros of doing it the other way? What benefits do you get out of having a stuffed hose that make you want to use this method over another?
The only one you've mentioned so far was 'if you were using the dir method and it rolled off and you had to donate your main reg to a OOA diver your back up reg would give no air'
So what?
In an OOA situation, your buddy is the one who needs a DV that is guaranteed to work, not you. He's panicked, stressed, and desperate for air. You're not. If your backup valve is closed, reach behind you and open it.
If your buddy's DV is off, which in the Gurr config it could be for all you know, then he'll drop the long hose DV and take the one in your mouth. And then you have no DV for yourself, because the long hose will be floating in the water somewhere.

"Have you tried it ??, Prob NO "

No, I haven't. I don't often do penetration dives, and when I do, I refrain from smacking my valves on the roof. I advise everybody else to do the same.
Besides, I don't see valve roll-off as something worth configuring for. The amount of turning it takes to close a valve, I'd have to bounce off a ceiling about two dozen times before it was even slightly possible.

"Why dont some of you open your eyes and look at your kit and ask yourself does it work for you easily, or have you copied someone and got used to it.???"

Pot, meet kettle. You're the one copying the Gurr configuration. Flaws have been raised with the configuration, which you have ignored. You've been asked some perfectly reasonable questions, and you've responded by becoming hostile.

With that attitude, you should definitely consider becoming a DIR fanatic. You'd fit in well.


(Edited by Dominic at 11:28 am on Jan. 27, 2003)
 

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</span>
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Quote: from simon on 9:59 am on Jan. 27, 2003

HOW DO YOU SPOT A LEFT POST ROLL OFF ?? When you are breathing off the right and donaiting the right,every, say two min's thro the dive check the reg ? don't think so.
<span =''>

Would you question your unmoving SPG needle? Would you wonder why after putting gas in your suit, the SPG now says zero gas yet you are still breathing? It's not hard to figure out what the problem is and is simple to correct.

Worst case would be donate long hose, switch to backup, breath a couple of fading breaths then no gas.

Think quick...was there gas in the left tank at the start of the dive?(if not you are an idiot),

Did you check your SPG before entering the water? (if not you are an idiot),

Did you suddenly (since you last checked your SPG) loose all the gas in the left tank without you or buddy noticing? (highly unlikely).

While thinking you would be checking the valve and opening it.

If you can't deal with this kind of situation you should not be diving with a manifolded twin set. If you do come into contact with an overhead you should always check your valves anyway.

In an OOA situation the OOA diver must have a reg that you know is working. He has priority because he needs the gas more than you do. The DIR way ensures that he will always get the gas he needs on the long hose.

You should not compare anything with DIR unless you fully understand what DIR is in the first place. Read JJ's book 'Doing it right - The fundamentals of better diving' and you may learn something usefull.

Dive safe,

Mark.



(Edited by Mark at 11:34 am on Jan. 27, 2003)


(Edited by Mark at 11:40 am on Jan. 27, 2003)


(Edited by Mark at 11:42 am on Jan. 27, 2003)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
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But if he just drops his main DV and can't find it quickly enough... or if his tank gets rolled closed and he thinks he's OOA

If you are diving with a f##k wit that drops his reg why are you diving with him ?
If you are on twins and diving with a buddy on a single, your both dead, he isn't carrying enough gas for you if you have a problem.


In an OOA situation, your buddy is the one who needs a DV that is guaranteed to work, not you. He's panicked, stressed, and desperate for air. You're not. If your backup valve is closed, reach behind you and open it.

Why should you die for someone that hasn't checked the air thro a dive ? if he has lost his air because of a malfunction then yes give him air, but if he hasn't been looking at his gauge and runs out of gas, 1, why should you help him ?, 2, you shouldnt be diving with him.

You dont have to bounce,smack or crash into the celing to roll off a valve, having tactile handles on the valves makes it easier to roll of the valve without banging the celing.

Pot, meet kettle. You're the one copying the Gurr configuration. Flaws have been raised with the configuration, which you have ignored. You've been asked some perfectly reasonable questions, and you've responded by becoming hostile.

Me hostile, all im saying, since i satrted to dive i have changed my configration time after time, now diving tri mix for some time im looking to unload some tasking, dom you have the attitude that what you say is correct so does every one else, im only lookig to see what every one else thinks, and to me some of you have blinkers.
--------------------------------------------------------

Would you question your unmoving SPG needle? Would you wonder why after putting gas in your suit, the SPG now says zero gas yet you are still breathing? It's not hard to figure out what the problem is and is simple to correct.


I use an argon bottle in the uk

In an OOA situation the OOA diver must have a reg that you know is working. He has priority because he needs the gas more than you do. The DIR way ensures that he will always get the gas he needs on the long hose.


see above.

You should not compare anything with DIR unless you fully understand what DIR is in the first place. Read JJ's book 'Doing it right - The fundamentals of better diving' and you may learn something usefull.

allready read, i currently dive similar to the dir rig exept one thing, my SPG is accross my chest fixed to my right d ring on a loop of inner tube, i find this is better for me because when im diving to 80-90 m with 2-3 stages i dont want to be looking for it between my stages, decreacing the task loading.

Hope i have answered all you questions so far, but if i havn't im sure you will tell me.

Regards Simon
 

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"If you are diving with a f##k wit that drops his reg why are you diving with him ?"

Ever been seasick?
Ever been seasick underwater?
Ever tried keeping a reg in your mouth when throwing up?

"If you are on twins and diving with a buddy on a single, your both dead, he isn't carrying enough gas for you if you have a problem."

Really? So when I'm diving my twin 7s at 20m and my buddy has a single 15, he's the one not carrying enough gas?

"Why should you die for someone that hasn't checked the air thro a dive ?"

WTF?? Why the #### are you going to die? It takes about a second to open a closed valve, if you can't hold your breath that long you shouldn't be in the water.

"if he has lost his air because of a malfunction then yes give him air, but if he hasn't been looking at his gauge and runs out of gas, 1, why should you help him ?"

What, your buddy signals OOA and you interrogate him as to how it happened before you'll let him have gas?
Remind me never to dive with you..

"You dont have to bounce,smack or crash into the celing to roll off a valve"

Cylinder valves do not roll off by themselves. If your valves don't meet a solid surface they won't roll off. Even with rubber knobs on them. If you don't hit anything, they will stay on. This is not debatable. The only time you need to check if a cylinder has rolled off is after they've hit something.

"Me hostile"

Yes. You hostile. Responding to feedback which you asked for by telling people they don't know what they're talking about and that they should rethink their configs is not reasoned debate, it's picking a fight.

"since i satrted to dive i have changed my configration time after time"

Good for you. So have all of us.

"now diving tri mix"

So you have at least one stage cylinder for deco, right..? So in the event of an OOA buddy, you'll always be given back the long hosed DV when he can start using his stage, right? So you NEED to be able to re-stow the long hose, right? So why choose a configuration where you can't do this?

"im only lookig to see what every one else thinks"

So why, when we TELL you what we think, do you ignore what you're being told and start arguing instead?

"I use an argon bottle in the uk"

And that excuses you from not noticing that your SPG doesn't go down during a dive because..? You do still use your backgas to BREATHE?

"In an OOA situation the OOA diver must have a reg that you know is working.

see above."

You'll hand your OOA buddy an argon bottle..?

"allready read"

But not, it seems, understood...

"when im diving to 80-90 m with 2-3 stages"
SEVERAL stages? So you'll DEFINITELY not be using a long hose for the entire ascent in an OOA situation. So (I ask yet again) WHY do you want a long hose set up in such a way that you can't re-stow it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
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Who says you can't restow it ?

As i said wrap it round your neck

Ever been seasick?
Ever been seasick underwater?
Ever tried keeping a reg in your mouth when throwing up?

Yes i get seasick and i usually do it thro my reg, its safer, as the first thing you do after being sick is inhale air, so if your regs dangling around somewhere you can't find it you inhale water (unsafe).

WTF?? Why the #### are you going to die? It takes about a second to open a closed valve, if you can't hold your breath that long you shouldn't be in the water.

Yes but using this setup it wouldnt be closed would it. this is what im getting at, reduce task loading.

And that excuses you from not noticing that your SPG doesn't go down during a dive because..? You do still use your backgas to BREATHE?

But with the said rig this wouldnt happen, would it ?

What, your buddy signals OOA and you interrogate him as to how it happened before you'll let him have gas?
Remind me never to dive with you..

Why not ?. If you are diving with me you would be safe as houses, the point im making why should i be put in danger because of someone elses predicament they have put themselves in.

Im not after a fight or argument at all, why not think about the rig and then tell me the advantages it has over yours, all you seem to do is tell me the disadvantages, one of them is you can't re stow the long hose, and you can.I have looked at this rig and have seen all the advantages and disadvantages,

Regards Simon

Oh by the way we have asked you to dive with us dom some time ago and you refused, too far for you to travel, so if you are up in the lakes some time give us a call, i willl be in weymouth (i hope ) aug bank hol week for a trimix week.
 

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"As i said wrap it round your neck"

But if you're resigned to doing it like that anyway, why not just do it like that from the word go? You seem convinced of the advantages of having a long hose tucked away in bungee over the Hogarthian standard, but you still haven't revealed WHY.

"Yes i get seasick and i usually do it thro my reg, its safer, as the first thing you do after being sick is inhale air, so if your regs dangling around somewhere you can't find it you inhale water (unsafe)."

So do I, and unfortunately I wasn't always able to keep my DV in. And if I hadn't been able to find it fast enough, I'd have had to grab my buddy's DV.
Then I'd have reclaimed mine, and the dive could have continued.. only (if he'd had the Gurr long hose) he'd have had this 2 meter length of hose in the wrong place for the rest of the dive...

"Yes but using this setup it wouldnt be closed would it. this is what im getting at, reduce task loading."

But your right post might, when your buddy needs it, that's what I'M getting at. And HE'S the one in most desperate need of air.

"But with the said rig this wouldnt happen, would it ?"

No, it's even worse - with the rig you describe, the right  post could be off, and you have no way of telling, because you're breathing the left and so the SPG (which is also on the left) will drop.
Same goes for the manifold being closed - if you're not breathing the opposite post from your SPG, the SPG will drop, and so you have no warning of the valve being closed.

"the point im making why should i be put in danger because of someone elses predicament they have put themselves in."

Because they're your buddy.
The time and place to decide whether or not you're willing to endanger yourself on their behalf is on the boat or on the shore, before you start the dive.
If they're the type to recklessly endanger you in the water, you're better off not diving with them in the first place, rather than running away when they're signalling OOA.

"Im not after a fight or argument at all"

Neither am I. I'm after the reasons you feel the Gurr setup to be the best one for you.

"why not think about the rig and then tell me the advantages it has over yours"

Because I'm afraid I can't see any. That's why I'm asking you what advantages YOU see. I'm not DIR, never have been, never will be. If you have convincing reasons why the Gurr setup is better than mine, I'm all ears. My kit is the way it is because I believe it to be the best way of doing it for my diving. If I'm wrong, I want to know about it.

"Oh by the way we have asked you to dive with us dom some time ago and you refused, too far for you to travel, so if you are up in the lakes some time give us a call, i willl be in weymouth (i hope ) aug bank hol week for a trimix week."

Who's "us"? You haven't gone Royal on me have you?

I don't dive trimix. Thanks anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
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But if you're resigned to doing it like that anyway, why not just do it like that from the word go? You seem convinced of the advantages of having a long hose tucked away in bungee over the Hogarthian standard, but you still haven't revealed WHY.

less clutter around your front, only one reg to worry about and thats in your mouth. Your breathing off a reg that would roll off in a overhead enviroment.

So do I, and unfortunately I wasn't always able to keep my DV in. And if I hadn't been able to find it fast enough, I'd have had to grab my buddy's DV.


Where is your  back up reg ? (under your chin )why not use that

But your right post might, when your buddy needs it, that's what I'M getting at. And HE'S the one in most desperate need of air.

It will be you checked it when you do your checks before the dive, or did you forget.

No, it's even worse - with the rig you describe, the right  post could be off, and you have no way of telling, because you're breathing the left and so the SPG (which is also on the left) will drop.
Same goes for the manifold being closed - if you're not breathing the opposite post from your SPG, the SPG will drop, and so you have no warning of the valve being closed.


Same goes for your rig you only breath off your right, your left could be off, so your rig is shite as well


"Because they're your buddy"

would you die for your buddy
??

simon
 

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Guys,

This is precisely the kind of stimulating bebate on diving that YD is both famous for and encourages - please keep it up!

One thing - you both obviously have very confident views (not doubt based on deployment and experience/use) on the various kit/rig configs that you either prefer or want to look at changing for valid reason. All I'd ask is that you please keep it up-beat and positive (i.e. stimulating) and NOT personal where possible.

No one diving technique (other than an absolute adherence to safety!) is the 'ONLY' way for every individual diver - regardless of what certain agency, technique bigots or those that never understood the concepts and benefits of the 'show me - don't tell me' school of learning might insist up on; there are as many rig configs as there are personal opinions and this will always stimulate debate. Let's try and ensure that that debate is kept in the teaching space and not in haranguing or getting personal. Thanks for your help.

Dive safe all,

(Edited by Bren Tierney at 3:11 pm on Jan. 27, 2003)
 

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"less clutter around your front"

Hmmm... not really, the long hose clipped to a D-ring is different from going across your chest, but can't see how it really counts as less clutter. Just different clutter.

"only one reg to worry about and thats in your mouth"

How is that different from mine? I only breathe the one in my mouth, other than when I check on the backup..

"Your breathing off a reg that would roll off in a overhead enviroment."

But (a) I rarely dive in an overhead, (b) I always check my backup DV after the valve takes any impact, © I don't think it's even possible to roll my valve off by it meeting the ceiling.

"Where is your  back up reg ? (under your chin )why not use that "

Not according to your first post. Clipped to your D-ring, along with whatever else is clipped there.

"It will be you checked it when you do your checks before the dive, or did you forget."

That's still no guarantee. What if it rolled off as you backed out of the wreck? What if a bit of crud got in and jammed it or punctured the membrane? What if a hermit crab moved in while you weren't looking?

"Same goes for your rig you only breath off your right, your left could be off, so your rig is shite as well
"

But if it were off, I'd be wondering why my SPG still hadn't moved - you wouldn't. Unless it was off during the descent, in which case I'd wonder where the #### all my air had gone when I inflated my suit.

"would you die for your buddy
??"

No. But I wouldn't dive with a buddy I considered likely to kill me.
And under no circumstances would I refuse to give my buddy any help I could safely give. If my buddy goes OOA, he gets my DV. Even if it was his own fault for not monitoring his air.
 

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</span>
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This is precisely the kind of stimulating bebate on diving that YD is both famous for and encourages - please keep it up!
<span =''>

Can't believe I got suckered into defending DIR...
 

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I doubt you would have a great deal of choice in sharing gas as the OOA diver will take it, like it or not (very bad attitude by the way!).

What if the panicked OOA diver went straight for the necklaced short hose in your mouth leaving you to struggle to find the long hose (with him right in your face). You're not controlling the situation. What if you found that the right post was off? That would be as unexpected as a roll off and probably more likely (human error). That would be a big problem for you both if you are unable to work out what the problem was and correct it. If you think you could handle and correct this situation why not make it a lot safer and easier to control by breathing off the long hose in the first place? It makes sense (to me, Dom and thousands of others).

If you employ proper gas management/planning, being hit for gas will not endanger you in the slightest. That's what 3rds are for.

A guy at my club has got himself a twinset. After getting the best advice he could get from me and another DIR rigged diver at the club, prior to buying anything, he has done the following because he thinks he knows best......

He is about 6"2' and has gone for 10's. He has fitted them to a buddy commando with cam-bands. They have an isolator  manifold and are also banded with CD bands (with D-rings). Due to the height of the tanks, for proper trim  he has had to mount them so low on his BC that he can't reach the valves at all (miles away). He has mounted the long hose on the left post, bungeed it and clipped it up like an octopus. He breaths off an un-necklaced short hose from the right post. He has mounted a pony cylinder in the middle of the twins and has another reg clipped-up octopus style. He has A-clamps on all of these regs. He has an auto-air and an emergancy bottle on the buddy. He intends to do the BSAC basic nitrox course then breath air as backgas and have 36% in his poney for deco.

What a total stroke! That is about the worst setup I have ever heard of. Despite being given excellent advice he has still gone and got this total death trap. I would not get in the water with him - no way! This is the type of total  abortion that people who think they no best end up with(this is an extreme case - lol).

Dive safe

Mark.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
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So do I, and unfortunately I wasn't always able to keep my DV in. And if I hadn't been able to find it fast enough, I'd have had to grab my buddy's DV.
Then I'd have reclaimed mine, and the dive could have continued.. only (if he'd had the Gurr long hose) he'd have had this 2 meter length of hose in the wrong place for the rest of the dive...

As i said why not use the one under your chin when your sick instead of bothering your buddy.

What if it rolled off as you backed out of the wreck

now your being picky, what if .

For a deep diver diving on tri mix doing overhead and penetrations, this set up would work better, in my opinion.

There is no point joining in mark you are dir and allways will be, so there is no tellin you, dir is the best and all others are strokes.

Tell me what would a dir diver do - you are diving on a wreck there are three of you one diver isnt too hot only done a few tri mix dives, 75m you have done 15min bottom time, your buddy passes out still concious (spelling ?) do you , A. take him to the surface and get help, or B. inflate him to the surface and you and the other diver do you stops

Dont dir divers dive as a team and not buddy pairs ?

Oh all this bickering makes my fingers sore.

Simon
 
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