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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
OK, having read both the great cave trip reports over Easter and Fiona's DIR-F course report, I'm starting to get curious.


The diving sounds fantastic, the principles sound acceptable with compromise.

I've ordered DIR book by Jarrod off ebay, what next?
I'm going to be in the med all summer, when I get back end of August / September any intro to DIR lectures on the go? DIR Scottish Divers?

My understanding is I shouldn't use a neoprene suit? True / False, If that's true its the one thing that would cost me, as I actually really like my Othree, it keeps me dry and warm.

Are there DIR benefits when your a dive tart? I dive with anybody, any time from any agency?

Slap me down and set me on fire..


Davie.
 

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Na it can't be that deep
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Come into the light stay away from the dark side :)
 
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I agree that there is a lot about the GUE methods which makes sense, to any diver. It is born out of a standard way of diving safely. I completely support the idea of the buddy system, which is the basis of the 'team', I guess. However, the idea of practicing 'team swimming' as part of a course does tickle my sense of humour. How can such a thing be taken seriously?

I find the break in my harness a godsend, and the boots on my twins actually make life easier. Having a crack'n'go DSMB and force fins, an O'three suit work for me, and my buddy. I learned the hard way last weekend why I went for a dual bladder wing and I prefer to decompress on 80%.

:)
 

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aka Chimp 1 or Mavis...
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[Cackling Laughter]Masssster, another one has been tempted....[/Cackling Laughter]

Davie, I will try and answer your questions and have embedded the points in your text.

I've ordered DIR book by Jarrod off ebay, what next?
I'm going to be in the med all summer, when I get back end of August / September any intro to DIR lectures on the go? DIR Scottish Divers?

I am not sure that there are many people north of the border who have undertaken GUE courses as I believe that Andrew Bryson has moved down to Abingdon and Gary Moffat has given up. Rick Huggins takes trips oop north so you might chat to him. However, if you can get a small number of like minded people, I am sure that one of the GUE instructors would be more than willing to take a journey to chilly jocko land. I know that Rich Walker went across to Northern Island late last year for a DIR weekend. Failing that, get down to Stoney in Octover for the DIRx gig.

My understanding is I shouldn't use a neoprene suit? True / False, If that's true its the one thing that would cost me, as I actually really like my Othree, it keeps me dry and warm.
You are right, neoprene suits are not recommended because of their variable bouyancy characteristics due to depth. The comment about being warm in a Neo suit just means that you have to put the warmth in layers under a tri-lam suit. I have dived throughout the winter with dives upto 70 mins in 6-8 degree water with a tri-lam, couple of thin thermals and a set of Arctics. You could sell the O3 and get a MTM Protec for approx £750

Are there DIR benefits when your a dive tart? I dive with anybody, any time from any agency?
The benefits are of your making. Having more awareness of what is going on around you (both divers and environment), having a deeper understanding of gas planning whilst at a recreational level. You can dive with whom you like, there isn't anything from GUE which says that you have to dive with GUE trained divers. The 'myth' comes from the fact that when people do more demanding tech or cave dives they want to know what their buddies/team are going to do in the event of the poo hitting the whirlygig: GUE training provides that knowledge.

Hope that provides you with a little information.
 

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Hi Davie

As Gareth has rightly said, the DIR front in Scotland is now sadly lacking. I used to live in Falkirk and dived with my club (thistledivers.com) plus a couple of guys from Edinburgh who have now fallen away unfortunately.

If you're interested in meeting up with somebody who has done some of the training, and having a chat / dive, then perhaps driving down to Capernwray in Lancashire would be the best way forward. A lot of the guys from the Wirral head over there frequently, and I'm sure somebody would be happy to go for a dive.

I'm off to Scapa at the end of July, but hope to spend the following week back home, so will have time to go diving for sure.

Cheers
andy
 

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My understanding is I shouldn't use a neoprene suit? True / False, If that's true its the one thing that would cost me, as I actually really like my Othree, it keeps me dry and warm.
Hi. Good to hear you are interested - sure we can find a way of getting you some more info/dives.

With regard to the neoprene suit issue - don't think that signing up for fundies means that you have to lose your suit - we recognise that for many a good dry suit is one of the biggest investements that they make in diving and replacing it may not be an option.

Gareth is right that most of the benefits of a neooprene suit can be matched by a membrane - without the buoyancy issues - but if your suit fits properly and allows a good range of movement there is nothing to stop you doing Fundamentals in it.

HTH :)
 

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The DIR system has much to recommend it and if you are interested go find out more and investigate. It is not perfect, nor is it the only way to dive nor indeed always the best way to dive. Some aspects of the equipment configuration aspects are simply wrong when applied outside of the Floridian cave diving that gave birth to it.

If the excellent GUE training and skills development appeal go do the fundies. Do more if you want. It is not necessary to sign up in blood that you will always follow the true path - that is for the sad people who cannot tell the difference between a hobby and a religion.

Chris
 

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aka Chimp 1 or Mavis...
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It is not necessary to sign up in blood that you will always follow the true path - that is for the sad people who cannot tell the difference between a hobby and a religion.
Bugger :D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Clare Gledhill said:
Hi. Good to hear you are interested - sure we can find a way of getting you some more info/dives.

With regard to the neoprene suit issue - don't think that signing up for fundies means that you have to lose your suit - we recognise that for many a good dry suit is one of the biggest investements that they make in diving and replacing it may not be an option.

Gareth is right that most of the benefits of a neooprene suit can be matched by a membrane - without the buoyancy issues - but if your suit fits properly and allows a good range of movement there is nothing to stop you doing Fundamentals in it.

HTH :)
Ok does this go for the rest of my equipment then?

I can do Fundies in my own kit and still pass? I can then change my kit to move on to the next stage?

I've had a little bit of a read but it sounds like lots of it is not right, if its a kit think I am happy to change as and when money allows as long as everything I change to is better than I have.

As for style, any training that makes me a better diver has to be good.

Would I need to replace all the following?

Regs: Poseidon xstreams one, long hose one short.
Fins: Mares Quattros
Wing: Frog Midnight
Harness: OMS Comfort
Suit: Othree msf500tb
Torch: GF F2 tristar plus (umbilical)
Cylinders: twin ten fabers MDE manifolded with slob knob.
Compuer: Suunto D9 with Air Integration

Stage: Ali seven with Scubapro MK20 & S600.

Waiting on me book, summer reading...


Davie.
 

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Ok does this go for the rest of my equipment then?
No - from the standards

Equipment Requirements

Each student should have, and be familiar with, all of the following required equipment.

  1. Tanks/Cylinders: Students may use dual tanks/cylinders connected with a dual outlet isolator manifold, which allows for the use of two first-stages. Students may also use a single tank/cylinder with a K, H, or Y-valve.
  2. Regulators: One of the second-stages must be on a 5- to 7-foot/1.5- to 2-meter hose. One of the first-stages must supply a pressure gauge and provide inflation for a dry suit (where applicable).
  3. Backplate System: A rigid and flat platform, of metal construction with minimal padding, held to a diver by one continuous piece of nylon webbing plus crotch strap. This webbing should support five D-rings. The harness below the diver's arms should have small restrictive bands to allow for the placement of reserve light powered by three in-line c-cell batteries (where necessary). The system should retain a minimalist approach with no unnecessary components.
  4. Buoyancy Compensation Device: A diver's buoyancy compensation device should be back-mounted and minimalist in nature. It should come free of extraneous strings, tabs, or other material. There should be no restrictive bands or "bungee" of any sort affixed to the buoyancy cell. In addition, diver lift should not exceed 50lbs for a single tank and 80lbs for double tanks. Wing size and shape should be appropriate to the cylinder size(s) employed for training.
  5. At least one depth-measuring device
  6. At least one timekeeping device
  7. Mask and fins: Mask should be low volume; fins should be rigid, non-split
  8. At least one cutting device
  9. Wet Notes
  10. One spool with 100 feet/30 meters of line per diver
  11. Exposure suit appropriate for the duration of exposure
I'm happy to lend out kit to help people meet the basic requirements of the course - on the basis that many people who do GUE Fundamentals are coming along to see whether they like what GUE has to offer and may not wish to commit to changing kit for the course. Other GUE instructors do similar so don't let kit stop you from coming along.
 

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Ok does this go for the rest of my equipment then?

I can do Fundies in my own kit and still pass? I can then change my kit to move on to the next stage?

I've had a little bit of a read but it sounds like lots of it is not right, if its a kit think I am happy to change as and when money allows as long as everything I change to is better than I have.

As for style, any training that makes me a better diver has to be good.

Would I need to replace all the following?

Regs: Poseidon xstreams one, long hose one short.
Fins: Mares Quattros
Wing: Frog Midnight
Harness: OMS Comfort
Suit: Othree msf500tb
Torch: GF F2 tristar plus (umbilical)
Cylinders: twin ten fabers MDE manifolded with slob knob.
Compuer: Suunto D9 with Air Integration

Stage: Ali seven with Scubapro MK20 & S600.

Waiting on me book, summer reading...


Davie.
I am sure someone better qualified will be along in a minute, but I asked the exact same questions at the tail end of 2005. I had just bought a twinset, and DIR was causing much ruckus at the time, so I signed up for a fundies course in order to a) see what the fuss was about and b) use it as a twinset orientation.

I dived a twinset w/boots, heavy neoprene suit (poseidon jetsuit) and split fins. Now Rich W. asked me to rent some compliant gear (fins) and asked me to take off the boots which I did.......and the main thing he asked was "Dive like I am going to train you during the course. If you don't like it then change back afterwards". He gave me the freedom to dive my gear, as he knew it was impractical to rent a new drysuit as well, but he did say that whilst it was not ideal, as long as I could do shutdowns ok then it didn't matter.

I rocked up and did the fundies course and it still ranks as one of the hardest courses I have ever done. I really struggled with the buoyancy and the in water skills, but they gave me a set of tools which I then practised the shit out of for a few months, until in October 2006 I did the fundies re-evaluation and got the full pass.

For me it was all about what I got out of it:

1) In water confidence
2) Massively improved buoyancy
3) Back finning, spool and SMB deployment
4) Ability to do shutdowns
5) Properly rigged kit (for me that is. I am a minimalist, and I liked the way I was taught to do it by Rich W.)
6) Training in something a little different.

Nowadays I still have the boots on the twins, and the poseidon is on it's way out for a better neo suit - an o3 is my goal, but I stick to alot of the principles and skills I was taught by Rich. Will I go on down the line to tech 1 and 2....probably not as my buddies don't dive that way, and it's not the way I want to dive.

There are a lot of naysayers, and GUE has used some clever marketing, but at the end of the day they do teach well, and without my little foray into DIR I wouldn't be the diver I am today.
 

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  1. Tanks/Cylinders: Students may use dual tanks/cylinders connected with a dual outlet isolator manifold, which allows for the use of two first-stages. Students may also use a single tank/cylinder with a K, H, or Y-valve.
  2. Regulators: One of the second-stages must be on a 5- to 7-foot/1.5- to 2-meter hose. One of the first-stages must supply a pressure gauge and provide inflation for a dry suit (where applicable).
  3. Backplate System: A rigid and flat platform, of metal construction with minimal padding, held to a diver by one continuous piece of nylon webbing plus crotch strap. This webbing should support five D-rings. The harness below the diver's arms should have small restrictive bands to allow for the placement of reserve light powered by three in-line c-cell batteries (where necessary). The system should retain a minimalist approach with no unnecessary components.
  4. Buoyancy Compensation Device: A diver's buoyancy compensation device should be back-mounted and minimalist in nature. It should come free of extraneous strings, tabs, or other material. There should be no restrictive bands or "bungee" of any sort affixed to the buoyancy cell. In addition, diver lift should not exceed 50lbs for a single tank and 80lbs for double tanks. Wing size and shape should be appropriate to the cylinder size(s) employed for training.
  5. At least one depth-measuring device
  6. At least one timekeeping device
  7. Mask and fins: Mask should be low volume; fins should be rigid, non-split
  8. At least one cutting device
  9. Wet Notes
  10. One spool with 100 feet/30 meters of line per diver
  11. Exposure suit appropriate for the duration of exposure.


  1. thats me nearly there then! i have dual tanks which are sort of manifolded. and a wing and some other stuff. :)
 

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I've ordered DIR book by Jarrod off ebay, what next?
Ask questions, meet up, go dive :)

I see you're on Dave's St Abbs trip in a few weeks - there'll be a few of us on there so we can have a good natter if you like and we'll all be falling off the same boat!

Also Capernwray is a good bet if you want to hook up for a quarry dip and a bacon butty.
 

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aka Chimp 1 or Mavis...
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Order a book on inland dive sites :D

Graham

Harsh but true graham,is there such a book,or is JJ still in the process of writing it :)
Page 1 The Stengarth,Stoney Cove,Depth 20mtrs
Page 2 Helicopter,Stoney Cove Depth 18mtrs
Page 3 Hydro box,Stoney Cove Depth 35mtrs (STEADY NOW):)

Paul.
 
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