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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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Are full face masks accepted in the environs of the DIR diving methodology.

I suspect not - on the basis that some consistency of kit for DIR divers is required, from what I have read (e.g. Chris Boardman/GUE in Sports Diver).

If that is the case I would find it curious because I elected to use a FFM, amongst other reasons, on the grounds of my safety.

I need to find out more - is there any detailed info available on the www that someone could point me to?

Note - I am not into knocking something because of the name it carries. If the message is good and I can use it within my diving environment, I will - regardless of the source.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi Finless

FFMs are not used for the main dives for a number of reasons, high co2, donating to another diver complications etc. I think you may find you have a debate on whether they are 'safe' or not.

They are sometimes used on O2 when decompressing in case of o2 hits. I have read that JJ uses one for this reason on the long dives although that may not be true anymore because they are decoing using rebreathers for the warmth properties. So they are not exclusively non DIR, just used in very specific cases.

As for Chris Boardman. Well, he seems to cause trouble wherever he goes unfortunately and doesn't seem to put in as much research into his articles as I would like.

Kindest Regards

WL
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ June 03 2003,16:23)]you may find you have a debate on whether they are 'safe' or not.

I chose on the grounds of pollution (article in the papers about the amount of coleoforms in the water locally) and suffering a convulsion from oxygen toxicity and not spitting out the reg (after nitrox course). In retrospect it was a bit of an OTT reaction but now I'm v/happy with it.

I have a spare reg on every first stage (single or twins) of which there is always one on a long hose.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
he seems to cause trouble wherever he goes unfortunately and doesn't seem to put in as much research into his articles as I would like.
Was the bit about consistency of dive kit correct ?


Rgds
Bryan
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Re FFMs, AGAs are standard issue NOAA kit for a lot of diving.

I don't know what "hiuli" means but all I will say is that is it very very rare that someone makes such a massive negative impression on me as one certain journalist-wannabe did recently  
  if I was a gue diver I wouldn't want his views/attitudes representing me  
 
Chee-az
steve
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Steve W @ June 03 2003,16:52)]I don't know what "hiuli" means but all I will say is that is it very very rare that someone makes such a massive negative impression on me as one certain journalist-wannabe did recently  
  if I was a gue diver I wouldn't want his views/attitudes representing me  
 
Chee-az
steve
Don't worry it's a non DIR thing. Actually, I haven't got the hang of multiple posts so I "quote" all the bits I want, stick in any bit of text as my message, post it and go back and edit later.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I chose on the grounds of pollution
Unless you're diving seriously POLLUTED water (not just "not perfectly clean" water) then just keeping your reg in your mouth and not drinking the stuff should be enough..

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]suffering a convulsion from oxygen toxicity
Well, leaving aside the question of why you would suffer one if you analyse your gases and so on.. you could get one of those "manta" mouthpieces that don't fall out, and just use it instead..

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I have a spare reg on every first stage
So.. how many DVs do you have attached to your twinset when using a FFM?
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Unless you're diving seriously POLLUTED water (not just "not perfectly clean" water) then just keeping your reg in your mouth and not drinking the stuff should be enough..
Yeah, well I did a lot of diving at Newhaven harbour arm and at the time there was a lot of stuff in the papers about pollution there. I am not saying I expected to die of poisoning but it was a consideration for a FFM.

Oxygen toxicity - your point is noted, however, people do suffer "O2 hits" through a combination of any or all of too deep for too long on too rich a mix.

Once again, I don't think I have ever come anywhere near having an O2 hit but, if I did OR suffered any other problem under water at least I would not drown so long as I was still breathing and there was gas left (equipment permitting of course).

Other reasons were comfort, warmth and vanity.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So.. how many DVs do you have attached to your twinset when using a FFM?
On my twin set there are 3 second stages - one is in the FFM and is connected to each cylinder via a gas switch. After that there is an octo on each cylinder available to me in the event of FFM failure or any passing diver.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finless @ June 03 2003,17:07)]

Other reasons were comfort, warmth and vanity.

On my twin set there are 3 second stages - one is in the FFM and is connected to each cylinder via a gas switch. After that there is an octo on each cylinder available to me in the event of FFM failure or any passing diver.
Hi

I don't know about comfort on these things. As I understand it (I have never used one so please correct me if I'm wrong) they are harder to seal, you use more gas, and there is a danger of Co2 buildup which can cause all sorts of problems. Add to that complications in rig setup, needing a third DV and everything, it wouldn't be the best choice for me. I can understand NOAA using them for scientific reasons, communication and everything but for everyday diving?

As far as consistency of dive kit, then that is true. If you use the same kit then you effectively know your buddies kit as well as your own. But the way each piece of kit can be explained as to why its there and why its that particular type/configuration is really the reason. Its a system after all.

Kindets Regards

WL
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dominic @ June 03 2003,17:18)]Buy a rebreather  
Very droll and very perceptive - as soon as finance permits I want one AND I still want a FFM.
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ June 03 2003,17:16)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I don't know about comfort on these things. As I understand it (I have never used one so please correct me if I'm wrong) they are harder to seal, you use more gas, and there is a danger of Co2 buildup which can cause all sorts of problems.
Mine is v/comfortable. The seal on the Ocean Reef (only FFM I have used) is excellent - I seat my mask onto my hood. Gas useage has never really been a problem - I'm sure I use more than I did before but it is no big deal.

CO2 buildup - I don't know. There is a mouth and nose piece to reduce "dead air" space and resultant CO2 problems. I am not aware of any problems BUT that does not mean to say there aren't any.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Add to that complications in rig setup, needing a third DV and everything, it wouldn't be the best choice for me. I can understand NOAA using them for scientific reasons, communication and everything but for everyday diving?
Yes it was a pain to set up. Others were supposed to be getting a FFM so the poss of u/water comms was an option at the time BUT never happened.
Don't ask how I managed this.
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Steve W @ June 03 2003,16:52)]I don't know what "hiuli" means but all I will say is that is it very very rare that someone makes such a massive negative impression on me as one certain journalist-wannabe did recently  
  if I was a gue diver I wouldn't want his views/attitudes representing me  
 
Chee-az
steve
<font color='#000F22'>Are we talking about Chris Bordman's artical on DIR fundimentals course?

If so I dont get your point.

I read the artical and thaught he sung the praises of the triaing to the rafters.

I was so impressed I have considered hiring the kit just to do the course. The only thing that puts me off is the fact it tooke me ages to get good in the kit I have. So new kit would be a bit of a bummer on such an intensive course.

Only slagging I read was of the viz in the sea dives.

Did I miss somthing or are we talking about a diferent report?

Mark Chase
 

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I use them alot. They don't have seal problem with me, although some folk don't get on with them. They don't use more gas if you get the hang of them, unless you use the positive pressure ones which are a bit of a pain. And the navy uses them exclusively for clearance diving - serious swims under pressure to 80 metres so the Co2 problem obviously isn't much of a problem. Most commercial scuba work is done on FFM, also hard, dirty work without co2 probs. As far a safety, you just carry a 2nd stage which you can easily hand off or pull off the ffm and use it yourself. An obvious advantage is that it's very difficult to drown in one - the endgame in most diver fatalities. O2 hits are an inconvenience rather than fatal, and narcosis is less risky too. Big advantage is comms, which is probably the most significant development in diver safety ever IMHO. I agree that ffm use in recreation is limited, but I think its a matter of comfort, cost and hassle rather than safety.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

Thanks Jason, I didn't know that. I thought the navy clearance divers were relatively shallow using oxygen  rebreathers. I knew they used FFM's but I though that was because of the comms and because FFM's are better in zero viz.

Finless, found this on quest for you. DIR and FFM's

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I hope you understand all of the risks that are associated with using these - increased dead gas space, increased gas consumption, freeflow (and freeze) risk, the constraint of mask and reg, and of course, the gas sharing CF.  If you can get away without using the FFM, do so.  If you genuinely require the mask for safety reasons (swiftwater, black water, minor contaminants, tox risk or necessary hardwire comms) then use it as follows:
Rig the FFM, which feeds from the right as with any other second stage (AGA Interspiro MKII is not standard this way) to the backup reg hose.  You may need to use a hose length slightly longer than standard to ensure a complete range
of motion without tugging on the mask.  The long hose is clipped off (as you would in any other situation) to the right chest D-ring, available for immediate deployment.  The backup mask (standard half-mask) is kept in the thigh pocket as usual.
If you can see each other, comms are not necessary, and hence the FFM is not necessary unless you need it for one of the other reasons listed above.  If you must have the comm link, forget the through-water nonsense and use a proper
hardwire.  When you need comms, you need them to be clear, consistent and reliable - DIR, insofar as that's possible with the FFM.
As for the masks themselves - as mentioned above, the AGA feeds from the wrong side without modification.  The EXO is a bit too bouyant and will tug at your face.  You can add a trim weight to it, but then it feels massive.  If you can swing it, the DSI bandmasks are the way to go, but failing that the ScubaPro is a pretty good unit for the price.  I use this in swiftwater, and the lower profile compared to the other masks is better for keeping it from getting ripped off your face.  I also have an AGA, which I modified to feed from the
correct side, but I hardly ever use it.
I can't stress enough that you really need to think carefully about the risks to determine if the dive warrants a FFM.  Usually the answer is no.
That clarifies it methinks

Kindest Regards

WL

PS Mark, Chris Boardman annoyed a bunch of BSAC instructors on the BSAC forum criticising the instructor training system recently. His GUE article whilst mostly correct, in my view he played down the humour and good natured constructive criticism and played up the elitist stuff which gives GUE bad press. And Mark, I'd let you borrow MY kit for the course, in return for a pic of you laid on the floor practicing frogkicks at Vobster in front of everyone
 

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What this??  DIR and FHM are not compatible !!  Simply Outrageous. Harrumph!

Actually, The Greater Crested Stevie Walker and I are opening an new DIR diver-friendly restaurant in the nearr future - first thing on the menu:

* Frog (kick) Legs


 
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ June 03 2003,20:53)]
<font color='#000F22'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And Mark, I'd let you borrow MY kit for the course, in return for a pic of you laid on the floor practicing frogkicks at Vobster in front of everyone
You obviously havent seen the pic of me on Pilot divers demonstrating the omny swivel.

http://www.pilotdivers.com/Gallery/puddles/horsea/pages/DSCF0087.htm

If I can put up with having that on the WWW I can have a crack at you'r frog kicks.  


ATB

Mark Chase
 

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OMNI SWIVEL?  Oooh you're going straight to hell for that one matey.
PS what is that appalling growth around your mouth?  You're not going all BSAC on us are you?  
 

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Charter Boat Skipper, Salvage Diver & YBOD abuser
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<font color='#000080'>Mark,
No wonder you're hiding in the shadow of a large-peaked hat in your avatar!  

On second thoughts' ...I suppose it's better than hiding behind a sheep!  

ATB,
Terry
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ June 03 2003,20:53)]Finless, found this on quest for you. DIR and FFM's
WL,

Ta for the info.

I think I have got things about right now. Bail out to open circuit is well rehearsed. After one particular incident I changed all my backup reg holders to ensure the regs don't come loose by accident and part of my mantra is to check everything is in place when in the water - I did get a bit careless about that in the past.

Gas consumption is not an issue - I'm still better than some and worse than others.

I would say that it did take some perseverance to get where I am BUT I am now v/happy with the system.

One thing I had not given proper thought to is a trim weight as the mask is a bit "tuggy" if ascending in an upright position. However, I normally ascend in the horizontal position which, I believe, is the DIR way.

At least I got one thing right.

Rgds
Bryan
 
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