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newfangled thingummies - losing the corrugated hose

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<font color='#000080'>after perusing a few of the recent issues of Dive and Diver, i've been thinking about this reasonably new idea of losing the corrugated hose and just having a direct feed to your BCD like a drysuit (started, i believe, by the HUB - yes devils spawn i know)

i'm trying to work out whether this is a good idea or not. i've often thought that having a corrugated hose is a bit of a waste of space, as it's not as good as dumping air as a pull-cord dump valve, and in general it seems like a left over from the days of ABLJs

the only bit of it i use is the inflate button, so why not just have a button directly on the BCD? the reasons against it that i can think of are that you need to have a tube to orally inflate the BCD in an emergency - but that can just tuck away in the shoulder strap somewhere. also there would be a problem with lifting someone as you couldn't do all the controls with one hand - and it would be a real problem when lifting from the back (as discussed recently).

what does everyone think? in fact i'll make it into a poll - are the newfangled thingummies GOOD or BAD?

not sure how you could apply it to wing-style set ups, but someone i know had modified their buddy trident so the hose came under their arm and was tied on to their left side... same sort of idea surely?

by the way, this is purely an academic discussion on my part - i'm not thinking of buying one!
 

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<font color='#000080'>A fine example of a pointless dive industry gimmick (which causes more problems than it resolves) to part you from your cash. Don't do it.

Regards,

Mark.
 

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I went DIR... but my bungies pulled me back!
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I voted yes, but its a reserved yes.  The system fitted to the new Scubapro bc is a drysuit inflator, nice and simple to inflate, and you then use a standard pull dump to, er... dump air.  Stops the hose floating in your face and generally just getting in the way.

Now the No bit.  The pneumatic systems fitted to the Mares and Dacor stuff,  never catch me with one of them.  You run out of air underwater and start an ascent, how do you use your dump if it needs air to operate the dump?.  Too many newly trained divers I see dont know what the "thing with string" is anyway and in an emergency is not a good time to find out, just dont trust the idea of them, probably a reaction to the whole HUB issue.
 

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<font color='#000080'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark @ Jan. 05 2004,12:21)]A fine example of a pointless dive industry gimmick (which causes more problems than it resolves) to part you from your cash. Don't do it.
wasn't going to! (see my disclaimer)

why a gimmick? why should we use a different system on BCDs as we do on drysuits? why do we need a corrugated hose when they were invented for a style of diving (orally inflating your BCD) which no one uses any more?

discuss  


darren - i was meaning the scubapro-style inflate valve (same as a drysuit). i don't think anyone thinks much of pneumatic systems! and do you think a lot of places teach solely the use of the corrugated hose for dumping air? i can't think of many BCDs offhand, even entry level, that don't have a right shoulder dump
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ] i can't think of many BCDs offhand, even entry level, that don't have a right shoulder dump
Wings? Sorry just thought I'd be pedantic.

I find my corrugated hose forces me to raise my left shoulder which causes my auto dump (on the ds) to work properly, so I'd not want to get rid of it on that basis alone. I suspect the idea would work i.e. no corrugated hose, well enough if you were wet suited as air dumping is usually done via a shoulder dump valve. Maybe its there to act as redundant fill when equipment was less reliable than nowdays.

Matt
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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Had to vote "bad idea" - if all else fails you can inflate your BCD/wing orally with the corrugated hose option.

Although, I have never needed to, in 20 years of diving (apart from after washing and putting out to dry).
 

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<font color='#000080'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finless @ Jan. 05 2004,12:50)]Had to vote "bad idea" - if all else fails you can inflate your BCD/wing orally with the corrugated hose option.
the BCDs which i've seen advertised have had a tube you can stow away in your left shoulder strap for orally inflating

p.s. this is the sort of thing i was looking at

http://www.scubapro.co.uk/pdfs/Page24-26.pdf

though having said that i can't see the tube for oral inflation.... maybe that was a different company
 

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Bad:

Take a look at that nice, smooth plastic shape on a Mares jacket, and imagine doing a CBL on somebody with one of THOSE on a jacket.

It adds major complications - a single corrugated hose does inflate, deflate, oral inflate, and emergency breathing (push both buttons at once) all at once, with a very simple, reliable piece of equipment.

The new ones have a complex pneumatic dumping system (failure points galore), a separate oral inflate unit (two systems = more failure points), and no emergency breathing function - you loose functionality.

Can't port it to wings, therefore there can never be "universal" training if they're adopted as a system.

Good:

Well... they stay reliably in one place, I suppose.

The corrugated hose should and will stay. I suppose you could put a drysuit inflate onto your jacket if you wanted a push-button control, but what benefits does it really bring..?
 

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Oh - and they put it on the HUB. What more do you want?
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dominic @ Jan. 05 2004,14:12)]I suppose you could put a drysuit inflate onto your jacket if you wanted a push-button control,
<font color='#000080'>they have - see my link!

and i'm not talking about the HUB pneumatic effort - again, see above posts
 

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I saw. I meant that you could take your existing jacket and put a drysuit button on it - actually modify the jacket, should you so desire..

The other points still stand - it has no advantages and numerous disadvantages.

You can't fit one on a wing, you can't breathe off it, it's an inherently more complicated system, it makes it harder for a rescuer to find the inflate control (since it can be located anywhere) and harder still for them to use it to control the rescue - they're not designed to be gripped; and if you don't use a pneumatic system, you have two separate controls for inflating and deflating, instead of just one.
 

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Progress is good.

However this is one of those changes that seems to be just a gimmick to distinguish their offering from other manufacturers.

Now I love the latest gimmick/gadget as much as the next man (or woman - for all you monty python fans  
)  but the supposed problems solved do not add up,  all of the problems with a corrugated hose that are propagated by these suppliers do not exist or don't seem to exist for me (a pull dump incorperated in the corrugated hose also negates many of the problems with lifting the hose etc.).

However the problems introduced by these systems do not outweigh the supposed benefits.  Non standard oral inflation, positioning for CBL, costs?, spares and onsite repairs.

Nope one gimmick I am not sold on.  Give me a wing with a pull dump corrugated hose and it will do for me (Well once I have shortened the hose a bit  
)

Daz
 

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<font color='#000080'>do agree with all the problems with CBL, oral inflation etc, and i wouldn't get one myself

but i was wondering, if we were inventing the BCD for the first time now, with the benefits of direct feeds etc., would we still have a corrugated hose? or is it a system we use because we're stuck with it from the days of oral inflation?

just playing with the idea really.... what would be a better system? can you tell i'm bored at work?!
 

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<font color='#000080'>I'm going for a bad. Party because I can't afford to change my dive gear again! I don't see any reason to change what works already.

That said, if we were designing them all over again, I don't know if they'd think to make a corrugated hose. And if they did, it'd probably be an optional extra we have to pay for. A lot.
 

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I'd go along with that - if it were designed from scratch today, we'd probably have a drysuit-like inflator and pull-dumps. Or, you could have the deluxe option - combining emergency inflation, emergency air supply, inflate AND deflate into one single unit. But ooooh, it'll cost you...


Have often wondered about an autodump for a BCD, but god knows how you'd go about adjusting it during a dive...
 

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Kate,

Yes too many schools only teach people to dump air by raising the bc controls.  When I did my entry level course my instructor told me that the shoulder dumps were emergency dumps, only to be used if all else failed, we were not even allowed to play with them, and before anyone shouts it was a BSAC school in Sharm.  

Now i'm an instructor with a local branch and recently most of our trainees have been crossover from various resort type courses and none when asked really understood what the pull dumps were for.

Having read a few of the other posts i must admit to having second thoughts about the Scubapro type system,  as was pointed out CBL could be very difficult.  But as with everything else, proper trainig would probably get over most things.
 

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<font color='#000080'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Darren27 @ Jan. 05 2004,15:21)]Yes too many schools only teach people to dump air by raising the bc controls.  
why is that? seems weird to me, because if they don't want salt water in their BCs they're better off teaching people to use the pull dumps.

also people seem to find them harder to learn to use. while i was working as a divemaster it was scary the number of people i saw who had severe buoyancy problems - and why? because they had strapped the corrugated hose down on their left shoulder, then were trying to dump by turning up the very tip (so it was about level with their cheek) and pressing the button.

i occasionally had to give mass lectures back on the boat about how air only goes up, not down! and i got everyone to use their pull dumps - they found it harder to mess up  


p.s. i'm not using people's dimness or bad training to argue against the corrugated hose - just having a rant!  
 

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It is a mystery to me what some people are told when they learn to dive.  You watch how much water people dump out of their BC in the carpark at Stoney and you wonder how they ever managed to get back to the surface with all the extra weight/reduced bouyancy of that water sloshing around.

Yes it should be standard to teach people every method of dumping air from a BC and leave it down to the individual to decide which method works best for them.

Ho hum, makes my life more interesting at times though
 

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Having seen the gargantuan quantities of water drained out of club kit during pool training sessions, I'd agree that dumping through the corrugated hose is pretty pants as once all the air is gone, you get a stack of water down the tube. Shoulder dumps seem to be the more sensible option and I agree with Kate R, you could get rid of the hose altogether and put a drysuit type inflator onto it.
It would need to be designed carefully as when you push your drysuit inflator, your chest offers the resistance so that the button gets pressed in rather than simply pushing the whole valve and not opening the valve. On a BCD, the inflator would have to be up against something hard.
Alternatively the Northern Diver blowgun inflator would work fine.
Not sure how easy it would be to inflate a wing, though... you would have to reach behind you or down to the side.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Darren27 @ Jan. 05 2004,16:02)]Yes it should be standard to teach people every method of dumping air from a BC and leave it down to the individual to decide which method works best for them.
<font color='#000080'>You could apply that arguement to the removal of buddy breathing from courses ....
 
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