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<font color='#000F22'>here you go wl
didn't mean to disrupt the thread, sorry
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

So is your question about c cards collectors, my decision to go back to basics and learn to dive properly, or how much experience you need to become a BSAC dive leader?

Kindest Regards

WL
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
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<font color='#000F22'>just think all those cards in a relativley short space of time doesn't allow time for proper experience that's all
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

The cards or courses I have attended don't really 'qualify' me to do anything, in fact in my view I took them to gain experience from other divers in other clubs. The exception is Nitrox which is a weekend of lectures and dives to qualify for 50% mix, which in terms of equivalent Nitrox courses is probably more demanding. Two people failed the course I was on because they couldn't deploy an DSMB in midwater properly.

Another reason is that BSAC courses are extremely good value for money, usually less than £50 and they hold them regularly across the country. At the same time some of the courses give exemptions for certain parts of the Dive Leader and Advanced Diver qualification and that was another reason. I would agree with you that it is quite easy to progress to the higher levels of qualification but I don't set the standards. I always figured I'd get the courses and qualifications out of the way and then dive with no restrictions. I suppose the most important reason is that I LIKE doing courses. I  meet other divers, always learn something new and relearn stuff I've forgotten. I think its good to do as many courses as you can, especially if they're so readily available like BSAC

Experience is a term which is hard to define objectively. To one person I am inexperienced but to another my experience is adequate. Looking through the profiles and working out average dives per year I'm probably in the upper quartile of active divers. I haven't broken any rules or agency policies, just jumped through the right hoops. I am experienced enough to know I have a lot to learn and not to be complacent about my diving.

Kindest Regards

WL
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
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<font color='#000F22'>fair comments wl
i just don't agree with the way people can qualify without the relavant experience. i believe you should have the experience before you get the card.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

In a lot of ways I agree. But then you end up in a catch22. You can't get the experience before you do the course, you can't do the course until you've got experience. The level of experience is also set by people who have no idea whether you are a quick learner or slow learner so to find the right balance you must displease everybody, which isn't to good for the holiday diver who just wants a dive on holiday. I also think we tend to set our own limits and then judge people by our own perceived limitations, not intentionaly but we do all the same.

I don't really know what the solution is Mark. We can only try to be better divers and improve continuously. Personally I do that on all my dives, very self critical and ask my buddy for feedback on the dive.

HTH

WL
 

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<font color='#000F22'>WL

Sorry if you felt that I was atacking you personaly, that was not my intent. I was atacking the accepted practice of teaching DL or DM grade to diver with limited experiance.

I think it is wrong

I think divers should have a qualifieing number of dives within a given period to take on the responsibuility of the qualification goals.

Diving is a bit like driving a car. Experiance comes with a level of exposure to the real world. Most insurance companies agree with me. Whilst there may be brilliant drivers who can do it in X hours and terrable drivers who have been driving for 20 years, it is generaly fair to say that experiance is king and that new drivers tend to have more accidents than experainced ones.

Personaly I found it iritating to have to do the decompression procedures course to enable me to go for trimix as I had done a lot of accelorated deco diving on the back of my Advanced Nitrox ticket but I accepted that it had to be done. I question the benifit of doing the DL or DM course for any other reasion than actualy preforming the task of organising and leading dives. A task that should IMHO only be undertaken by very experianced divers.

I am not singling you out for criticisum and I agree that all courses are of benifit if they are well taught. I just dont like the PADI BSAC system of qualification..

You should be pleased to see me having a go at them for a change rather than DIR  


Chill out M8 your getting far too up set about this. Your posts are ardent and provocotive, (rather like my ones at times) and your going to take some flack. That said your obviously a pasionate and dedicated diver with points to make and questions to ask so your OK in my book.

ATB

Mark Chase
 

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Just not enough dive time.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I think divers should have a qualifieing number of dives within a given period to take on the responsibuility of the qualification goals.
Mark, like all good ideas this one is simple, but I believe a really good one. Perhaps there should be a minimum time period as well, so even if diver A does his qualifying dives in two weeks he still wont get the quals.

Matt
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (MATTBIN @ June 02 2003,12:34)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I think divers should have a qualifieing number of dives within a given period to take on the responsibuility of the qualification goals.
Mark, like all good ideas this one is simple, but I believe a really good one. Perhaps there should be a minimum time period as well, so even if diver A does his qualifying dives in two weeks he still wont get the quals.

Matt

All good ideas, the real problem is, how to police them.

Most qualifications you can get, have a minimum number of dives that must be done before you can take them. Problem is of course that shear volume of diving isn't the only thing that has an impact on diving ability.

As an example, how long does it take to rack up 100s of dives in an inland pit. I could go to Horsea (just down the road from me) with my buddy and easily rack up 5 or more dives in a day. Would that make me a much better diver? Probably not. I think that the only real way to determine ability is not with numbers but with being made to demonstrate what you can do.

I do agree that it's easy to do lots of courses and rack up lots of certs. This isn't necessecarily a bad thing IMO as long as the person doing the courses uses them for what they are, a starting point to learning rather than an ending one.

Cheers,
Rob.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
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<font color='#000F22'>why not use minimum time spent underwater rather than number of dives ?
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (markg @ June 02 2003,12:53)]why not use minimum time spent underwater rather than number of dives ?
Because again IMO a simple length of time is not good enough. If I really wanted I could go to Horsea (My favorite dive site  
) And spend 9 hours swimming up and down. Or I could borrow someones scooter and spend nine hours scootering up and down  


Point is what would I learn? Sure my in water confidence would be good and my buoyancy might well improve but skills? They'd probably be no better.

I fully agree that there is no substitute for practice, practice, practice. But the only way you can determine skill levels is through demonstration not just number setting.
 

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Just not enough dive time.
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Policing wouldnt be difficult, you'd have to show your log book. I suspect some might fiddle it, the majority wouldnt. Hours underwater sounds like a good plan, sub-split if necessary into sea/fresh water and add min/max timespan.
So no going to Horsea doing 5 dives a day (20 min) dives for two weeks and claiming the required hours.

However, what would be the gain for the Agencies, zilch perhaps as nobody would be claiming C cards and courses.
Once again the big dollar (Euro or American) will rule.

MAtt
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (MATTBIN @ June 02 2003,13:02)]Policing wouldnt be difficult, you'd have to show your log book. I suspect some might fiddle it, the majority wouldnt. Hours underwater sounds like a good plan, sub-split if necessary into sea/fresh water and add min/max timespan.
So no going to Horsea doing 5 dives a day (20 min) dives for two weeks and claiming the required hours.
Point taken, but the idea of setting a number and then saying after you've done that you're good enough to take xyz course is fundementally flawed. People progress at different rates and have different levels of abilities.

My only argument is that the best way to determine capability is through actually seeing what people can do.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
However, what would be the gain for the Agencies, zilch perhaps as nobody would be claiming C cards and courses.
Once again the big dollar (Euro or American) will rule.

MAtt
I think that's 100% spot on.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (RobK @ June 02 2003,13:11)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
However, what would be the gain for the Agencies, zilch perhaps as nobody would be claiming C cards and courses.
Once again the big dollar (Euro or American) will rule.

MAtt
I think that's 100% spot on.
<font color='#0000FF'>Wrong, BSAC is nonprofitmaking and is run by its members, for its members. It has one of the safest track records and Dive Guides the world over breathe a sigh of relief when BSAC divers are on board. There are a number of dives to do to progess from level to level. 20 or so and they must cover a variety of situations. 20 or so dives may be nearly a year for some divers, for me its three months or so.  

WL
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ June 02 2003,13:22)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (RobK @ June 02 2003,13:11)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
However, what would be the gain for the Agencies, zilch perhaps as nobody would be claiming C cards and courses.
Once again the big dollar (Euro or American) will rule.

MAtt
I think that's 100% spot on.
Wrong, BSAC is nonprofitmaking and is run by its members, for its members. It has one of the safest track records and Dive Guides the world over breathe a sigh of relief when BSAC divers are on board. There are a number of dives to do to progess from level to level. 20 or so and they must cover a variety of situations. 20 or so dives may be nearly a year for some divers, for me its three months or so.  

WL
Point taken WL. I wasn't really including BSAC in my gross generalisation  


Having said that I shall be quick to point out that I'm not targeting PADI/<Association of Choice> here either, but the dive industry as a whole.

I'll also reiterate that IMO having lots of certs is neither a good thing or a bad thing, it all depends on the diver. I also agree with your point that some divers will do 20 dives quicker than others and some divers will be more proficent quicker than others. Which brings me back to my point that demonstration is the only way to confirm skills.

I will how ever take exception to the "run by its members, for its members" quote. Are you sure about that ;)
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>I think I know what you're getting at there, ie trying to get HQ to listen to the opinions of branch level divers, a perennial obstacle (eg the new DTP and its implementation).

In terms of the branches WL has the gist of it, but in practice, branches can often be spoilt by the personal politics of a minority (sadly, something I've seen first hand)
Chee-az
Steve
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Steve W @ June 02 2003,13:45)]I think I know what you're getting at there, ie trying to get HQ to listen to the opinions of branch level divers, a perennial obstacle (eg the new DTP and its implementation).
Yeah, pretty much so. A few other bits and pieces but generally that's it.

To be fair I don't think it's an issue only faced by BSAC. I'm pretty sure lots of other similar organisations have the same problem.

Nature of the beast I guess.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
In terms of the branches WL has the gist of it, but in practice, branches can often be spoilt by the personal politics of a minority (sadly, something I've seen first hand)
Chee-az
Steve
Again agreed. I think that's an issue faced with clubs in general.

I should probably point out at this stage that I am currently still a BSAC member so don't think I'm just having an anti-BSAC rant  
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ June 02 2003,13:22)]It has one of the safest track records and Dive Guides the world over breathe a sigh of relief when BSAC divers are on board.
<font color='#000080'>
Do they? I've got to be honest, BSAC has got itself a real cr*p reputation in a lot of the centres I've worked in, and with a lot of the guides I dive with. You may not see it as a customer, as we're not exactly going to go off on why BSAC is cr*p in front of a load of BSAC divers, or even any other agencies divers (we all know better than that) but they've got a bad press as far as I can see.

I am also a BSAC member, and like the club system, and a lot of the criticism I've encountered has come from BSAC instructors and divers, so this one isn't BSAC bashing for the sake of it.

I just wanted to make it clear that we don't breathe a sigh of relief. Honest. In fact, there's very few agencies at which I would breathe a sigh of relief, as there's always a load of exceptions to any stereotype you assume with divers.
 

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I'm not sure I understand this thread. It seems people are discussing the best way to record, on paper, how 'good' a diver they are. Whether it's certs, years, dives, hours, agency etc. Surely a diver who enjoys diving and goes home afterwards is a 'good' diver. A good diver is one who knows their own limits regardless of the above criteria and so enjoys his/her hobby without hurting him/herself?Anything else is just part of a commercial exercise in liabiliy limiting and money-making. Do people really believe that a 'ticket' is an indicator of competence? Are people so interested in comparing themselves with others?
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Jason Drake @ June 02 2003,16:11)]I'm not sure I understand this thread. It seems people are discussing the best way to record, on paper, how 'good' a diver they are. Whether it's certs, years, dives, hours, agency etc. Surely a diver who enjoys diving and goes home afterwards is a 'good' diver. A good diver is one who knows their own limits regardless of the above criteria and so enjoys his/her hobby without hurting him/herself?Anything else is just part of a commercial exercise in liabiliy limiting and money-making. Do people really believe that a 'ticket' is an indicator of competence? Are people so interested in comparing themselves with others?
I was under the impression that this thread was about how to try and ensure that diver progression through different levels was managed.

Not who's done what or how many badges anyone has got or anything like that.

All theoretical of course as not much we say will make any difference



Mind you given the title of the thread I guess we are all talking rubbish
 
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