[steve-k]

Imported post

<font color='#000080'>The whole dir/gue has only just started drifting to out neck of the woods, im aware it’s been in England for a bit now, but still 9/10 of our local divers have never herd of it, let alone know what it entails

I have looked on the gue site (and others) and read with interest the forums concerning dir

What I have read so far indicates some very good sound diving skills and equipment configurations; I particularly was pleased to see the attention to basic skills

but (and there’s always a but) there does seam to be an attitude of, “it is done this way and only this way" now I firmly believe there is more than 1 way to do something correctly, and if there is an intolerance to respect individual opinions, is that person better staying away from dir?

Example
was chatting with a dir diver, who told me that my double bladder wing was a big nono, as I had always thought it as a good redundancy I asked him to explain why, basically he told me I have sufficient redundancy with a normal wing and a drysute, and that it was just an extra bit of kit " to go wrong", ok I said, but for example, early on in a deep dive where you are heavily over weighted due to all the gas you are carrying, your wing goes tits up there is no way your drysute will get you to the surface, and if it does then how buoyant will you be on the surface, he explained that you could drop some weight if needed then assent on your drysute, and at the surface drop the rest of your weight
Now in my opinion dropping weight can lead to all sorts of problems, especially an uncontrolled fast assent, I can just swap to the alternate bladder and ascend (or continue the dive)

Now this guy may not be preaching out of the dir bible correctly, but if we assume what he says is correct, for arguments sake, and people like myself have genuine disagreements with the views, how does this fit with the dir training etc

Another example
I watched the training video on dsmb deployment (from the dir site http://www.fifthd.com/divestore/classes/video/sbag.htm ) I am assuming from this that shallow mid water deployment is part of the training
my concerns with this would be relating to uk waters, commonly within 3/4m of leaving the wreck/seabed you have no visual reference, this can be quite disorientating, deep deployment of the dsmb gives you a reference point for your assent, I would not want to hold that real (from the video) in a 50m deployment, apart from friction burns, the speed the reel would be spinning would be scary and prone to incident, now I have a dsmb with an attached gas bottle all connected up with a reel stowed neatly in a thy pocket, its deployment is quicker, less fussy, and les in your face than that on the video, so unless someone could give me some very good reasons why not, I would stick with my own dsmb deployment arrangement


now i can understand the argument for having everyone wearing the same kit configuration, especially when the buddy principle is so high in its teaching, but to what extent? just how tolerant is dir? Does it have something to offer the strong minded individual or is it sheep only? (a bit heavy there lol) the course looks to really get to grips with your basic skills, which can only be a good thing, so please tell me my paranoia is out of line

 

[And]

Imported post

Hi Steve

I must admit I'm a little confused. You are a rebreather diver and on a recent post have stated that you are buying an Inspiration. And now you want to know about DIR. I don't know why exactly and so I shall just attempt to answer your main points.

Well, here goes.

Quote[/b] ]but (and there’s always a but) there does seam to be an attitude of, “it is done this way and only this way" now I firmly believe there is more than 1 way to do something correctly, and if there is an intolerance to respect individual opinions, is that person better staying away from dir?

Yes, you are better staying away. DIR is a system, has been developed over thousands of dives from simple reef and wreck dives to extreme deep cave dives. It is primarily developed by GUE and so individual opinion, to a large extent does go out of the window. Whilst some may balk at such a policy, I find it a lot more comforting to know that this has already been tried and tested and that it is the most successful method found rather than wondering if I'm doing it the best and most efficient way. To be honest, I've never had to ask why a particular kit config is used, it always made perfect sense. If you read JJ's book, and other resources on the web the whys are given and are, to a large extent, undisputable (IMHO of course

)

Quote[/b] ]was chatting with a dir diver, who told me that my double bladder wing was a big nono, as I had always thought it as a good redundancy I asked him to explain why, basically he told me I have sufficient redundancy with a normal wing and a drysute, and that it was just an extra bit of kit " to go wrong",

Essentially that is correct. Depending how you have the bladder setup you may have another LP hose and inflator which may go wrong. There are other reasons also, perhaps the main one being that if you have both inflators hooked up and one goes runaway, how do you know which one? You will have to unhook both, dumping from both bladders at once and, if wearing a drysuit, will have to concentrate on dumping that too. Its just more work than is necessary and therefore not DIR (DIR=Less work, less stress, more enjoyment) Properly weighted you should be able to swim your gear up without buoyancy.

Quote[/b] ]so unless someone could give me some very good reasons why not, I would stick with my own dsmb deployment arrangement

This has been covered before. Look under spools in the equipment section. A spool doesn't cause friction burns and doesn't jam. I don't find it frightening, its quite fun. I find reels frightening because they can jam without warning. Jamming at max dive depth can be a nightmare.

Quote[/b] ]now i can understand the argument for having everyone wearing the same kit configuration, especially when the buddy principle is so high in its teaching, but to what extent? just how tolerant is dir? Does it have something to offer the strong minded individual or is it sheep only? (a bit heavy there lol) the course looks to really get to grips with your basic skills, which can only be a good thing, so please tell me my paranoia is out of line

DIR is intolerant. Thats the truth. The kit is defined, the gasses are defined, the procedures are defined. It is precisely because of this that it is so successful in the technical diving world. I think of myself as a stong minded individual. Started my own business from scratch and have run it successfully for 5 years. 'Sheep' as you put it, don't do that. I've never met a weak minded DIR diver. DIR Fundamentals is all about basic skills, and is taught totally differently than any other agency. The whole premise for DIR is that fact that this wasn't available from any other agency and the WKPP were getting divers who couldn't dive, yet had the C-Cards. DIR is about diving, pure and simple, totally 100%. Some accuse DIR of fanaticism, I just call it focus.

Hope that helps

Andy

 

[Phil Ennis]

Imported post

Quote[/b] (steve-k @ Aug. 24 2003,21:00)]The whole dir/gue has only just started drifting to out neck of the woods, im aware it’s been in England for a bit now, but still 9/10 of our local divers have never herd of it, let alone know what it entails

<font color='#0000FF'>Where are you? Your profile states you are in Oldham, is there another one somewhere in the world?  

 

[steve-k]

Imported post

<font color='#000080'>

Quote[/b] ]Where are you? Your profile states you are in Oldham, is there another one somewhere in the world?  

lol  yup we are a bit slow in oldham

Quote[/b] ]I must admit I'm a little confused. You are a rebreather diver and on a recent post have stated that you are buying an Inspiration. And now you want to know about DIR. I don't know why exactly and so I shall just attempt to answer your main points

i have only reacently tried to understand whats involved in dir, and also only recently discoversd there attitude towards ccr, especialy the inspiration
on the net you get a lot of people who form an opinion of something without bothering to look into it first, i try not to

your post has helpt but confirmed that the dir is not for me, this said i feel it has a lot to offer, and even strokes (lol i know you hate that word) like myself can learn a lot from it, i will give the spool a go, and reserve jugment untill i do, i like the look of the low pressure hose inflaters on the hayclon lift bags/dsmb, and the fundimental course looks worthwile, if only for the basic skill improvment

atb steve from sunny, if not backwards oldham

 

[Mark Chase]

Imported post

Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Aug. 24 2003,22:21)]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, you are better staying away

No dont stay away. That is the responce of the DIR clone. It does not fit so I will ignore it says the DIR man. NO says I:

Investigate all that DIR has to offer. Its a great system with great ideas. When you have finished if you find you can not blindley follow the one true path, then take what you have lernt and move on as a happy stroke.

Quote[/b] ]It is primarily developed by GUE and so individual opinion, to a large extent does go out of the window. Whilst some may balk at such a policy, I find it a lot more comforting to know that this has already been tried and tested and that it is the most successful method found rather than wondering if I'm doing it the best and most efficient way.

I personaly find that diving practices out of Dover are quite unique due to the site specific problems there. I am confident the JJ and GI3 have never dived in the shipping lanes off of Dover and would be laughed off the boat if they atempted to DIR dive the Andaman with the Sea cat blasting overhead but then I wouldent have a clue how to do a cave dive for five hours so its hourses for courses. If I were to dive Scappa Flow I would try to lern from a local knolagable diver.

I went to the Meddas Islands a few weeks ago. We (my wife and I) did a dive on Dolphin Cave. We got on the boat with Calypso Diving and pootled over to the island. The dive leader placed me with a guide and started the breafing. Next thing you know the Dive leader comes over and apolagises saying he has just seen my qualifications and dive experiance and of course I can just jump in and I dont need a guide. I replied no thanks I have never dived this place before and I will take the guided tour for the first trip.

Quote[/b] ]To be honest, I've never had to ask why a particular kit config is used, it always made perfect sense. If you read JJ's book, and other resources on the web the whys are given and are, to a large extent, undisputable (IMHO of course

)

 

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]was chatting with a dir diver, who told me that my double bladder wing was a big nono, as I had always thought it as a good redundancy I asked him to explain why, basically he told me I have sufficient redundancy with a normal wing and a drysute, and that it was just an extra bit of kit " to go wrong",

Essentially that is correct. Depending how you have the bladder setup you may have another LP hose and inflator which may go wrong. There are other reasons also, perhaps the main one being that if you have both inflators hooked up and one goes runaway, how do you know which one? You will have to unhook both, dumping from both bladders at once and, if wearing a drysuit, will have to concentrate on dumping that too. Its just more work than is necessary and therefore not DIR (DIR=Less work, less stress, more enjoyment) Properly weighted you should be able to swim your gear up without buoyancy.

Properly weighted divers dont exist in the deep diving feild. You are properly weighted for the twin set with 50bar in then the other two /three cylinders, tourch, reels, gas etc etc are just there to screw you up.  Pleeeeeeeeees come and show me how to SWIM UP a flooded dry suit with twin 15s and two 10ltr stages from 50m. Dump weight?? what weight? my travel gas or my deco gas?

Twin bladder wings are a little OTT if you have a dry suit but they are esential kit for semidry or wet suit deep deco dives.

How do you know which one is run away?? Easy conect one to your travel gas which is perminantly on and conect the other to your deco gas which is switched off. Then switch the travel gas off when you switch to deco mix.

Dry suits have auto dumps and you dont have to think about dumping them, they are errrrrr automatic.

Quote[/b] ]This has been covered before. Look under spools in the equipment section. A spool doesn't cause friction burns and doesn't jam. I don't find it frightening, its quite fun. I find reels frightening because they can jam without warning. Jamming at max dive depth can be a nightmare.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Dont like spools, never have. But that said it does highlight one of the fundimental problems with DIR. They advocate spools and shalow deployment of same preferabley from the shalow deco stop (6m). This method of diving just wont work in the conditions off of Dover and is a good example of where the DIR system's lack of flexabuility fails under UK conditions.  

That said a couple of the divers in my regular group are DIR folowers and they just compromise for the conditions at Dover. I am sure GI3 would have them strung up but I think it makes them compitent divers.

DIR is intolerant. Thats the truth. The kit is defined, the gasses are defined, the procedures are defined. It is precisely because of this that it is so successful in the technical diving world. I think of myself as a stong minded individual. Started my own business from scratch and have run it successfully for 5 years. 'Sheep' as you put it, don't do that. I've never met a weak minded DIR diver. DIR Fundamentals is all about basic skills, and is taught totally differently than any other agency. The whole premise for DIR is that fact that this wasn't available from any other agency and the WKPP were getting divers who couldn't dive, yet had the C-Cards. DIR is about diving, pure and simple, totally 100%. Some accuse DIR of fanaticism, I just call it focus./QUOTE]


I like Andy, he is commited to DIR and fights the courner every time. I respect his dedication and I am sure he is going to be a very good diver if he is not one already. I hope that we are still in touch in about three or four years time when he has got into the deep stuff and has dived a bit more extensively arround the UK. I wonder if he will be less DIR or I will be more DIR by that time.

I will always be found on this site slagging DIR, but if someone asked me to recommend a holistic system for diving or a training rageim I would have to say that DIR is the best on offer. I am personaly trying to resist asymilation but all that black gear looks realy sexy  

 Mind you if you watch Star Track you will know that the Borg are always saying "we will adapt" Its a pity the DIR boys dont follow that ideal.

ATB

Mark Chase

 

[steve-k]

Imported post

<font color='#000080'>

Quote[/b] ]Hmmmmmmmmmm. Dont like spools, never have. But that said it does highlight one of the fundimental problems with DIR. They advocate spools and shalow deployment of same preferabley from the shalow deco stop (6m). This method of diving just wont work in the conditions off of Dover and is a good example of where the DIR system's lack of flexabuility fails under UK conditions

on one particular dive with a short window we drifted well over a mile during 40mins of deco, now i dont know about you (WL) but i want my blob up as i leave the wreck:O

 

[kramynot2000]

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I've taken the Fundamentals course and dive with others who have also and are signed up for the new Rec Triox looking toward Tech 1.  What I've found is that while the whole DIR system seems rigid, many who have taken GUE courses are flexible and dive with others who may not be totally DIR compliant.  A couple of weekends ago we were diving with a paraplegic who definitely wasn't DIR, but we dove with him and had a great time.

My thoughts are that it is great to take all the courses you can from all different agencies... but keep an open mind.  Many things DIR I agree with and use, but there are a few items I question, so...

Anyway, the main point is to have fun, so that's what I'm doing!

Tony

 

[Dominic]

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Quote[/b] ] Pleeeeeeeeees come and show me how to SWIM UP a flooded dry suit with twin 15s and two 10ltr stages from 50m.

At a guess, the argument would be that if it happens at the start of the dive, you can dump the stages as you haven't incurred enough deco to need them, and if it happens at the end, you've already used up the weight of the back gas.
Alternatively, purge the stages till they're empty, and they become a source of buoyancy

 

[Spike Jackson]

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I'd go along with Mark Chase there. I DO want to learn from the DIR boys, a lot of their techniques sound great.
I don't want to be told its "My way or the high-way" so that's why I have not signed up for the fundamentals course. I don't believe that one system works for every single dive.
I have looked at the DIS-Uk website, have not contacted them yet but think that might be the way forward for me. They sound more tolerant and open to suggestion.

 

[kramynot2000]

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Spike,

When I took the fundamentals course from Mike Kane and Tamara McKinney, it definitely was not the "my way or the highway" course.  Mike is a great guy, tells you what the agency thinks and why, and you make your own decision.  I took the course back in the "old" days (January) when you didn't have a backplate and wing, all you had to have was a long hose.  So, I was using my Ranger BC with BC integrated alternate regulator.  We talked about how loose the BC was and how a BP/Wing setup was more stable.  We talked about how the integrated alternate made it more difficult to ascend if I had it in my mouth, etc.  But then the decision was left up to me.

I'd suggest just what Mark said, take the course and learn, but again, keep an open mind.

Tony

 

[msssltd]

Imported post

Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Aug. 24 2003,22:21)]DIR is a system, has been developed over thousands of dives from simple reef and wreck dives to extreme deep cave dives.

Please correct me if I am wrong but it appears that DIR is dictated by one man, possibly two.  The development can only be a result of their personal experiences.  I am sure that their experience is extensive for an individual but it will never encompass the variation encountered on the hundreds of thousands of dives made every year.  GUE are clearly focused on one particular type of diving.  The kit and practices are optimised for what they do.  When the environmental problems are different so called DIR is inevitably a compromise.

IMHO the whole thing is an anachronism.  GUE will not accept compromise (good) but they expect everyone else to (bad).

Quote[/b] ]I find it a lot more comforting to know that this has already been tried and tested and that it is the most successful method found rather than wondering if I'm doing it the best and most efficient way.

What the most successful method is, is a matter of opinion which in turn is based on personal experience.  For instance when swimming up a long incline at a shallow angle, having your wing inflate to hand and being able to dump without changing position is highly desirable.  When your diving a deep square profile in tidal conditions it really is not that important.  Inflate the wing on descent and occasionally dump to account for the gas your breathing on the bottom.  During the protracted vertical ascent when invariably one hand is full of reel or shot line you may want to get to your inflate/dump PDQ and it is more efficient if you can do it with either hand.  

In my experience, I have had boats drift over my DSMB during deco stops (half a dozen times), I have once or twice hit sudden down currents which required the wing to be inflated to maintain the ascent.  I rarely need to dump while horizontal or in a confined space.  So MY opinion is that the most efficient location for MY wing dump is on the centre line just below the chest.

Now to the point, I apologise for the lengthy preamble. My ARSE* config is the result of experience.  It is based on what I find works and what does not work.  There is no false comfort factor.  I know exactly why I do things a particular way and I know why I do not use the alternatives.

Quote[/b] ]If you read JJ's book, and other resources on the web the whys are given and are, to a large extent, undisputable (IMHO of course

)

There are other books which will give you other reasons to do things in other ways.  Rob Palmer, Kevin Gurr, Brett Gilliam etc.  Like em or loath them they are all accomplished tech divers who have put on paper why they use techniques other than DIR.  In fact I am hard pressed to think of any accomplished tech diver outside GUE who is completely DIR.  Whenever I talk to the people who routinely do what I aspire to, what becomes blatently obvious is their techniques evolve from practical experience, not from what is written on the web or preached from a soapbox.

The concern I have about DIR is that some people adopt it for no other reason than a vocal and vociferous tech diver says they should.  They are discouraged from asking is there a better way, they are discouraged from experimentation (in the shallows).  Frankly I think they are missing out on a very important learning experience.

Quote[/b] ]Its just more work than is necessary and therefore not DIR (DIR=Less work, less stress, more enjoyment) Properly weighted you should be able to swim your gear up without buoyancy.

LMAO.  The irony is wonderful.  Have you ever tried to swim twins and stages up more than a few meters!!!  Swapping an LP hose on a dual bladder wing is a lot less work I guarantee you...But don't take my word for it, try it.

Quote[/b] ]This has been covered before. Look under spools in the equipment section. A spool doesn't cause friction burns and doesn't jam. I don't find it frightening, its quite fun.

Spools Vs reels is another point of contention.  I have seen a spool used successfully.  No question they can work very well.  I have also seen spools come out of pockets in a birds nest and others with the contents spilt across the wreck.  Recently I saw a guy tangled in his spool line after dropping it during the ascent, around 30m of slack line despooled to the bottom and the current blew him onto the line.  Personally I will stick with my Manta reel which can be locked and has a ratchet so such problems are not an issue.

Quote[/b] ] I find reels frightening because they can jam without warning. Jamming at max dive depth can be a nightmare.

My opinion is different.  I have had to disentangle a pair of divers who were caught up on someone elses line. I have myself had to be disentangled after a buddy had a buoyancy failure and pulled a slack shot line down over me.    Disentangleing someone else burns time.  Disentangling yourself may be impossible.  I used to assist an archaeology team which meant using lines extensively.  Slack line in the water scares me.  A reel jam is a comparitively simple problem to solve.

Quote[/b] ]DIR is intolerant. Thats the truth. The kit is defined, the gasses are defined, the procedures are defined. It is precisely because of this that it is so successful in the technical diving world.

Yet few of the notable tech divers outside GUE are DIR.  Pick up a back copy of 990 and try to find a DIR diver.  Ask the CDG what they think of DIR.  Try testing Military and Commercial opinion of DIR.  All these groups are accomplished in areas beyond recreational diving.  All use techniques developed from an experience base wider than two individuals.  None of them are DIR.

The techniques and practices that are included in the DIR package are neither original nor unique to DIR.  Even the dictatorial nature of DIR is not exclusive. The Military and Commercial worlds are just as rigid in their approach to risk management...Interestingly neither claim that one size fits all.

IMVHO the only original DIR concept is the cult nature.  Accolytes must conform to the commandments and follow the one true way in order to secure their place as DIR.  The heathen masses are not worthy, they are pagan Strokes and must be cast out as pariah.

Quote[/b] ]'Sheep' as you put it, don't do that.

Quite right.  Sheep have a mind of their own and need hearding in the right direction.  DIR wannabes are more like ducklings, blindly following the first thing they see. (Ok that was a cheap shot ;-).

Quote[/b] ]I've never met a weak minded DIR diver.

I can't think of many weak minded divers full stop.  Having a strong mind goes with the territory.  The problems come when such people believe they are right when they clearly or arguably are not.

Quote[/b] ]DIR Fundamentals is all about basic skills, and is taught totally differently than any other agency

The focus on basic skills is laudable.  The use of video is an excellent idea.  That they teach totally differently is very debateable.  AIUI DIRF uses a combination of lectures and in water demonstrations to introduce and assess techniques which the student is encouraged to go away and practise...the same as every other agency.  Admittedly they appear to be the only teaching agency that think denigrating the student is a valid aid to learning.

Quote[/b] ]The whole premise for DIR is that fact that this wasn't available from any other agency and the WKPP were getting divers who couldn't dive, yet had the C-Cards.

Unfortunately this is a problem with all qualification schemes, possibly because you can not control what happens after the qualification is awarded.  I doubt that GUE will be immune.  Give it a few years and there probably will be a host of G-Card carrying, Halcyon kitted muppets queing for the boats down at Portland.

Quote[/b] ]DIR is about diving, pure and simple, totally 100%

I beg to differ.  Proportions of DIR seem to be concerned with branding, marketing and meglomania.

Quote[/b] ]Hope that helps

Oh yes it always helps to get this off my chest once in a while.  Replying to a post like yours helps remind me why I dislike DIR as a holistic diving system.  

IMHO you need to take active steps to combat the brain washing.  Regular practice of basic debating skills in a safe environment is absolutely essential

Regards
Matt

*ARSE - All the Right Stuff for the Environment

 

[Phil Ennis]

Imported post

<font color='#0000FF'>A very interesting and well thought out post Matt. Very important that we think for ourselves and look at all the info that is out there and the different ways of achieving the same outcome. People will always do things in a different way to others and who is to say which is the correct one.

Keep an open mind and explore all avenues.

 

[And]

Imported post

I'm sorry, I thought I was responding to SteveW, not asking for my post to be pulled apart and then get called loads of names and as usual very little constructive discussion.

Mark, I would have expanded on some of your post but not now.

Matt, you turn up and with only five posts proceed to start a Divernet type post picking apart my post and quoting out of context, not giving any facts but just vitriolic opinion designed to wind up anyone who dives DIR.

Quote[/b] ]
Now to the point, I apologise for the lengthy preamble. My ARSE* config is the result of experience.  It is based on what I find works and what does not work.  There is no false comfort factor.  I know exactly why I do things a particular way and I know why I do not use the alternatives.

Whenever I talk to the people who routinely do what I aspire to, what becomes blatently obvious is their techniques evolve from practical experience, not from what is written on the web or preached from a soapbox.

The concern I have about DIR is that some people adopt it for no other reason than a vocal and vociferous tech diver says they should.  They are discouraged from asking is there a better way, they are discouraged from experimentation (in the shallows).  Frankly I think they are missing out on a very important learning experience.


IMVHO the only original DIR concept is the cult nature.  Accolytes must conform to the commandments and follow the one true way in order to secure their place as DIR.  The heathen masses are not worthy, they are pagan Strokes and must be cast out as pariah.

Quite right.  Sheep have a mind of their own and need hearding in the right direction.  DIR wannabes are more like ducklings, blindly following the first thing they see. (Ok that was a cheap shot ;-).

The problems come when such people believe they are right when they clearly or arguably are not.

Admittedly they appear to be the only teaching agency that think denigrating the student is a valid aid to learning.

Give it a few years and there probably will be a host of G-Card carrying, Halcyon kitted muppets queing for the boats down at Portland.

I beg to differ.  Proportions of DIR seem to be concerned with branding, marketing and meglomania.

Oh yes it always helps to get this off my chest once in a while.  Replying to a post like yours helps remind me why I dislike DIR as a holistic diving system.  

IMHO you need to take active steps to combat the brain washing.  Regular practice of basic debating skills in a safe environment is absolutely essential  

That was successful. You know nothing of me, and by your response bugger all about DIR. I've debated DIR with better people than you who don't need to take cheap shots. And if YD is now full of people who think the above is well thought out then 'Welcome to the New Divernet!!'

This thread and all others are over for me.

Andy

 

[steve-k]

Imported post

<font color='#000080'>wl
yes he has riped your post apart, and i would be upset too

finding fault is easy

maybe the dir aproach isnt for everybody, we all need to decide for ourselves

unfortunatley these slating posts are only going to fule the dir/srtoke rifts

it is a shame because there is allways somethibg to learn

 

[Phil Ennis]

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<font color='#0000FF'>Andy, this is not a personal attack as far as I can see but an opinion of DIR. We all have our own opinions, don't take it so personally! PADI has been getting slagged longer and harder than DIR but I have no intention of spitting the dummy. Stay and contribute and try and convince non DIR divers that yours is the true way using reasoned arguments.

You have a great enthusiasm for your chosen way and a good deal of knowledge, so fight your corner, don't leg it cos the big boys are being nasty to you

Hope you change your mind. Whether you have 5 posts or 5000 you are still entitled to an opinion.

 

[And]

Imported post

Hi

Phil, I really don't care whether you, Matt or anyone else dive DIR or not and I'm not about to try to convince you that it is 'the one true way'.

Steve asked a question and I answered it. I've then been quoted out of context twice and insulted. If DIR was being slagged then fine, but when called brainwashed by someone who's only been here for 5 minutes pisses me off quite frankly. I, like others are here voluntarily, not to score points but to talk about diving. Why stay to be called names? What benefit is it to me?

If he wants to debate then let him but he won't be able to, because then he'll have to be objective and these types of people gain their highly overrated opinion of themselves by calling names in order to persuade their opponent to retract. Its just a troll and should be regarded as such. I'm amazed you find it interesting and well thought out. Dream on.

You are right, everyones entitled to an opinion, and should be respected for it. Please point me to that part of matts post, because I missed it.

Andy

 

[Phil Ennis]

Imported post

<font color='#0000FF'>I feel it was well thought out because he took the trouble to elaborate on points which had been raised and gave his opinion of them, I found that interesting. It was a breakaway from the normal DIR-Stroke debate and as such I also found it quite refreshing. If I was in your position then I would not have the same opinion.

When you post, whatever the subject then you leave yourself wide open to somebody disagreeing with you or your philosophy. Don't take it personally, use reasoned argument and if you feel you have been insulted then just treat that person in the way that they deserve by letting it go over your head. If this is a troll as you put it then they have got the result that they were after, don't give them the satisfaction.

I hope that you throw the lettuce back up and get stuck in again, no-one likes personal insults and I am sure the Mods will sort it if they feel it is getting out of hand.

 

[msssltd]

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Andy

If you are truelly offended then I sincerely apologise.

My post is forthright because you described yourself as strong minded.  I am aware that my style of critique can at times be insensitive and occassionaly obtuse, however the only personal insult or name calling I can see is referring to myself as an ARSE.  

By all means point out where I lack  accuracy, where I am illinformed or where I have been less than objective.  I can assure you that I positively invite both critique and criticism.  I only ask that you stick to what I have written and not what you think I may have written.

The post is not a troll because I have genuine concerns  regarding the points highlighted;
That a system can not be optimal in dissimilar circumstances.
That practical experience of what does not work, gained in a relatively safe environment should be a factor in diver development, the same as regular practice of basic skills should be.
That DIR to some extent flies in the face of what other established players are doing.
That DIR uses 'cultist' methods to establish legitamacy.

My post is on YD because I thought there might be a chance of a discussion on these points.  I thought I had left plenty of scope for talking about diving but by accident or design the conversation appears to have turned towards your own insecurity.

My reference to brainwashing was not a poke at you.  As you rightly say, I don't know you so have no idea if you have been brain washed.  For all I know you have tried all the alternatives and decided DIR is right for what you do.  I am not questioning the validity of what is in the DIR box, only the packaging around it.

The reference to brainwashing was quite deliberate.  I keep reading all this DIR stuff and start to think, for instance, maybe I should use a spool.  I then have to consciously remind myself the reasons why I don't.  

I don't care if you have made 1 or 1000 dives I don't care if you have made 1 or 1000 posts.  On an  internet forum you are judged only by the sense you make pertaining to the subject at hand.  Like I said I was not intending to upset you personally and I am sorry if I have.  

Now can we talk about diving (interesting) or...

Regards
Matt

 

[Rob Evans]

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Andy
Errr.. as a recent dummy spitter, I can endorse Phil's point of view.  IMHO you've come across as a balanced kind of debater in the past - so build on that.  I've frequently disagreed with your posts and you've come back fighting -respect to that cos however you countered the argument you never came back with the S word.  Matt's voiced his opinion in a way that's got your back up, but it's a reasonable argument even if some of the presentation has gone awry.
I've never perceived you as being brainwashed, or for that matter insecure - so get out there and argue the toss.
The forum would be a lesser place without you.

 

[Mark Davies]

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<font color='#000080'>I wholeheartedly agree with the last post.

(Glad to see you're still here Rob - it would have been a poorer place without you).

And the same goes for you, Andy.

Matt has graciously held out the olive branch. How about a shake of hands and back to the business of the day?

Let's see you carry on doing what you do here best - providing reasonable and balanced comment on an important subject. Like Matt, I'm yet to be entirely won over. I look forward to more discussion on the issue and would welcome everyone's input.