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old time
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
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Hi all,

Some of you have e:mailed me on what our boat is like down here at Dover.

The ADMIRAL DOUGLAS ( more info on our website ) is the original ex RNLI lifeboat based at Penlee, built in 1926, sold to Dover Harbour board in 1956 to be used as a survey vessel,they fitted a wheel house and cabin also a engine.

41 ft Watson class, this is the only example still afloat today.

We got it in 1999, and last year , strip it all and refitted her from just the Hull remaining.

Will carry up to 12 divers , but that gets uncomfortable, 10 is a nicer number

Fully quailified and experienced cox's, all safety equipment to class 2 COP's, more O2 than you can shake a stick at.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/doversu....as1.jpg  <<<< Click on this to see a photo of it.
 

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Charter Boat Skipper, Salvage Diver & YBOD abuser
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<font color='#000080'>Hi Andy,
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Will carry up to 20 divers , but that gets uncomfortable, 16 is a nicer number

Fully quailified and experienced cox's, all safety equipment to class 2 COP's, more O2 than you can shake a stick at.
Are you sure everythings up to spec. with your boat? I've heard that the "club-boat" angle is now defunct and all vessels have to comply with relevant COPs(even just charging for fuel makes it a commercial operation). I know of several 20m+ Charter-boats that only carry 12 persons- beyond that the boat is classed as a "Passenger-Vessel" and a whole new set of heavy-duty Codes then apply.
Given how the "Where there's blame there's a claim" element is gaining the upper hand and the increase in risk brought by the way diving is becoming more "technical"- I wouldn't want you to come a cropper and find your insurance is invalid or whatever.
     Make double-sure your arses are covered!
ATB,
         Terry
 

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old time
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
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ADiver and all,


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Quote  
Will carry up to 20 divers , but that gets uncomfortable, 16 is a nicer number

Fully quailified and experienced cox's, all safety equipment to class 2 COP's, more O2 than you can shake a stick at.

Sorry, to clear up that fact,

When the lads built the engine cover and bottle rack, 10 of them were going diving, so, having sat on the engine box to get a comfortable position for 'SPACINGS '. With the help of some others in a Rib which sometimes is moored next to us and some big divers with twin sets, they got 20 divers on it,     took 4 off and found that it was cool.

ANdy
 

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Anglesey Charter boat Skipper
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just been looking at the picture of your "coded" diving vessel.
is the picture current?
no railings ,life raft etc etc etc.
you cannot hide behind the "club" cop out anymore that loophole has been closed.
we had a vessel up here doing exactly that and from what i hear he got prosecuted for about £6000  last year and doesn't operate anymore.
just a friendly warning
cheers elfyn
 

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That's Dude with an E
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Andy.

Can l come and do a try dive on the Lusitania fo £5 please, like wot it says on the boat picky.
 

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old time
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
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ok,,,,,,,    all safety/navigation equipment is present ,, OK , No liferaft,No railings , but this is NOT a COMMERCIAL vessel, .

DD that sign states TRY dive in the pool , not a wreck dive
 

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DUE CEO, Booking agent, Coffee maker & Dogsbody...
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Andy

DD was spoilt on the Lusitania by Canterbury Divers as we had cracking vis. F7 when we did the Loanda though.  


Can i have a £5 dive if i bring the marks?  


Plan is looking good M8, even early enough for Mark Chase i think.

Regards

Paul
 

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Anglesey Charter boat Skipper
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i'm not having a dig andy i'm just highlighting the way it is now.
The mca had this problem of unlicenced hard boats saying they  were a club based outfit and so were side stepping the code regs.
They have now closed this loop hole and are due to extend it to club/private ribs which will also have to be "coded "like commercial ribs and have a qualified skipper at the helm.
personally i think they should of done it years ago judgeing by the standard of boat handling that we see.

the incident reports  all over the country speak for themselves.
If ya aint legal your asking for trouble in this no win no fee way of life we live in.

The  unlicenced guy they did for £6000 was a  club based affair just taking out his so called "mates".
you've been warned!
 

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DUE CEO, Booking agent, Coffee maker & Dogsbody...
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Hi Yellow

So where are these rules. Our club Rhibs meet the guidlines as laid down by BSAC and our insurance. I have recieved no information relating to changing of the rules.

What is meant by a qualified skipper? We use qualified Boat handlers and some of us are qual Diver Cox'ns, but skippers - what level?  Day Skipper (Powerboat)?

Regards

Paul
 

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Registered
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (yellow butty box @ July 24 2003,00:31)]
i'm not having a dig andy i'm just highlighting the way it is now.
The mca had this problem of unlicenced hard boats saying they  were a club based outfit and so were side stepping the code regs.
They have now closed this loop hole and are due to extend it to club/private ribs which will also have to be "coded "like commercial ribs and have a qualified skipper at the helm.
personally i think they should of done it years ago judgeing by the standard of boat handling that we see.

the incident reports  all over the country speak for themselves.
If ya aint legal your asking for trouble in this no win no fee way of life we live in.

The  unlicenced guy they did for £6000 was a  club based affair just taking out his so called "mates".
you've been warned!
YBB

Could you point me to any links regarding this prosecution. I can find no reference to it on the MCGA website, unless it was this year. They have a fair list of prosecutions in the last 5 years of various types.

MCGA prosecutions

I would like to read the reasons for prosecution.

Adrian
 

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Charter Boat Skipper, Salvage Diver & YBOD abuser
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<font color='#000080'>AFAIK it was this year,
The guy was advertising "free-Diving liveaboard(?)" for Bsac
club members in Dive or Diver Mag. His boat was unlisenced and lacked much safety gear. Last year he had three warnings from MCA and prosecution was this year. He was boarded at sea and stated it was club-dive(BSAC ?) and when asked to name passengers couldn't. When passengers were asked how much trip cost they said £25.00 each.....
It's a bit of a minefield at the moment but ignorance will provide no defence -we are kept on our toes continually trying to keep abreast of all changes,.. one missed item, one accident and you're toast.
Will look for info and post again later.. but, as I said in my first post, get beyond 12 passengers and you get into the heavy stuff.
Take care,
                Terry
 

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Charter Boat Skipper, Salvage Diver & YBOD abuser
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<font color='#000080'>Found a bit - this is hard graft trying to find this stuff! of course MCA web search is "being upgraded"!.....Again!...
[text links]  
Merchant Shipping Notices


 MSN 913
The Carriage of Passengers in Ships and Motor Vessels including Those Plying on Inland Rivers, Canals, Estuaries and Lakes

Notice to Shipowners and Masters

This Notice supersedes Notice No. M.522.

1. Under the Merchant Shipping Acts no ship carrying passengers to, from, or between any places in the United Kingdom may ply or proceed to sea or on any voyage or excursion with more than twelve passengers on board unless it holds a valid passenger certificate issued by the Department of Transport after survey by a Department of Transport Marine Surveyor. Nor may a ship holding a passenger certificate carry passengers in excess of the number specified on the certificate. A copy of the certificate should be posted up in a conspicuous place on board the ship.
 

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Registered
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Thanks for the reply.

Well he asked for it didn't he? Ignoring warnings - they were bound to come back. And it seems obvious to me that this was not a club owned boat.

Thankfully, most club boats dont carry close to 12 people. But I daresay there are other regs that could catch out the smaller boats.

Adrian
 

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Charter Boat Skipper, Salvage Diver & YBOD abuser
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<font color='#000080'>The awkward bit is proving non-commercial operation, if not then:
COMMERCIAL CODES OF PRACTICE

Commercial Codes

Every vessel which proceeds to sea and which is operating commercially (i.e. the owner is receiving a fee or goods for the use of the vessel over and above the normal operating costs) should be complying with one of the various Codes of Practice for commercial vessels.

These Codes of Practice apply to vessels with a length overall of less than 24 metres (approx. 78 ft. 9 ins.) and which carry 12 or fewer passengers.

Each of the Codes of Practice are considered to be an equivalent of the Merchant Shipping (Load Line) Regulations.

This company is authorised to carry out compliance examinations and stability assessments for the following:

The Code of Practice for the Safety of Small Commercial Vessels (Motor)

The Code of Practice for the Safety of Small Commercial Vessel (Sail)

The Code of Practice for the Safety of Small Workboats and Pilot Boats

The Code of Practice for the Safety of Small Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure Operating from a Nominated Departure Point.

The Code of Practice for the Construction, Machinery, Equipment, Certification and Manning of Sea Going Police Launches

The Codes are based on areas of operation as follows:

Category 0: Unrestricted service.

Category 1: Up to 150 miles from a safe haven.

Category 2: Up to 60 miles from a safe haven.

Category 3: Up to 20 miles from a safe haven.

Category 4: Up to 20 miles from a safe haven (in daylight only).

Category 5: Up to 20 miles from a nominated departure point.

Category 6: Up to 3 miles from land and no more than 15 miles from a nominated departure point.

Which Code Should I Use?

Vessels which carry cargo over 1 tonne should be certified under the Workboat Code.

Subject to certain conditions, vessels which carry cargo not exceeding 1 tonne may be certified under the Small Commercial Vessels Code.

Vessels which are primarily used for towing, pilot duties, survey work etc… or which previously had a Load Line Exemption certificate should be certified under the Workboat Code.

Vessels which are primarily used for sport or pleasure (e.g. diving or angling) should be certified under the Small Commercial Vessels Code.

Vessels which operate from a single named point (rather than any unspecified safe haven) should be certified under the Nominated Departure Point Code.

Certifying Authorities

This company is registered with the following Certifying Authorities:

Society of Consulting Marine Engineers and Ship Surveyors (SCMS)

Marine Engineers Certifying Authority Limited (MECAL)

Procedure

The following procedure is common to all Codes of Practice:

You must register your intention to operate under a Code of Practice with a Certifying Authority (CA). Should you wish this company to act on your behalf you must register with either SCMS or MECAL.

The CA will send you a form (i.e. SCV1 or SWB1 or NDP1 depending on the relevant Code) which should be returned to the CA with the relevant fee (as applicable).

The CA will then send you another Form (i.e. SCV2 or SWB2 or NDP2 depending on the relevant Code). This Form should be completed as fully as possible.

This company will then attend to confirm that what you have declared on the Form (SCV2 or SWB2 or NDP2 depending on the relevant Code) is correct.

Depending on the type of vessel, its size and the proposed area of operation a stability assessment will have to be carried out. The form of this stability assessment should be clarified with this company prior to us attending. The stability assessment will have to be carried out with the vessel afloat and in her fully loaded condition.

Once this company has signed the Form then it is submitted to the CA for independent scrutiny after which a Certificate is issued (subject to any other CA fees being paid, as applicable).

IMPORTANT! Please note that at least part of the compliance examination must be carried out with the vessel out of the water so that an examination of the underwater hull and associated gear can be carried out.

Annual Examinations

Where vessels are complying with a commercial Code of Practice they are required to be examined annually.

In the following cases the annual examination must be carried out by an "authorised" person:

where the vessel is 15 metres in length or over; or

where the vessel is certified under the Workboat Code; or

where the vessel is certified under the Police Boat Code

In all other cases the annual examination can be carried out by the owner/managing agent and a declaration made to the CA.

If the annual examination is carried out by the owner/managing agent then the vessel must be examined by an "authorised" person at least once during the validity of the 5 year certificate. This "mid term" examination is normally carried out between the 3rd and 4th year.

General Comments

Please contact this company as early as possible should you consider using a vessel commercially or if you are considering purchasing a vessel for commercial purposes.

If you have any queries, please contact us or the Maritime and Coastguard Agency at:

Maritime & Coastguard Agency

Code Vessel Safety Department

Spring Place, 105 Commercial Road, Southampton

SO15 1EG

Tel: 023 8032 9100


I,m trying to find the detailed defination of a "pleasure- craft".........it's out there somewhere!
 

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Charter Boat Skipper, Salvage Diver & YBOD abuser
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<font color='#000080'>Cheers Yachties!:
International Maritime Conventions - like:

The International Convention on the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS),
The International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping (STCW95),
The International Convention on Load Lines (ICLL)

and others, do not apply to 'pleasure vessels not engaged in trade'.

These International Conventions are implemented by each Flag State passing their own domestic Laws and Regulations which are then directly applied to the ship's in that Flag States fleet.

In 1993, the UK Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport and Pleasure) Regulations re-defined what is - and what is not - a 'pleasure vessel'. The UK's definition of a 'pleasure vessel' is as follows:

"pleasure vessel" means-
(a) any vessel which at the time it is being used is:

(i) (aa) in the case of a vessel wholly owned by an individual or individuals, used only for the sport or pleasure of the owner or the immediate family or friends of the owner; or

(bb) in the case of a vessel owned by a body corporate, used only for sport or pleasure and on which the  persons on board are employees or officers of the body corporate, or their immediate family or friends; and

(ii) on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion; or

(b) any vessel wholly owned by or on behalf of a members' club formed for the purpose of sport or pleasure which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or pleasure of members of that club or their immediate family, and for the use of which any charges levied are paid into club funds and applied for the general use of the club; and

© in the case of any vessel referred to in paragraphs (a) or (b) above no other payments are made by or on behalf of users of the vessel, other than by the owner.

In this definition "immediate family" means-
in relation to an individual, the husband or wife of the individual, and a relative of the individual or the individual's husband or wife; and "relative" means brother, sister, ancestor or lineal descendant;

The same Regulations (1993 - and now updated in 1998 - download Statutory Instrument 1998 No. 2771The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998 now from http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982771.htm)
provide for yachts to operate commercially without a total transformation into a passenger ship - provided they carry no cargo and not more than 12 passengers (so retain her ‘yacht’ status), and provided they conform to a Code of Practice. There are now two different Codes, one for yachts under 24m (Load Line Length) and one for larger yachts.

These Codes of Practice offer an attainable alternative to the problems of modifying yachts to conform to the requirements of Conventions and Regulations which were written with ships (as we understand them) in mind - not yachts.

The requirements of the Codes become more demanding, depending on the area of the yacht's operation.

The advantages of meeting the requirements and obtaining the Certification are many:

1. If the yacht is British-flag, it is a legal requirement.

2. Commercial yachts have been obtaining duty free fuel and other supplies.

3. The yacht will be a safer vessel.

4. The value of the yacht increases.

5. Many Charter Agents will not charter a yacht which is unable to produce the Certificates.

6. Insurers expect owners to comply with all necessary legislation.
As long as everyone you take is A MEMBER of your club and you keep your eye on charging structure it is possible to get around it....whether insurers would accept it if sh*t hits the fan is another matter.

Back to Andy's original post- he was quoting COP safety gear and the vessel in the picture obviously does not carry it all........and I'm still not sure about the >12 passenger part.
Myself and ybbox are not posting cos we think you're nicking our business- we're trying to watch out for our YD mates.
Perhaps I should have PM'd as I did to our Merseyside contingent a couple of weeks ago...... I know at least 1 MCA employee who surfs YD and Divernet...and they've got a fleet of new Inspection-boats to justify the purchase of!
    ATB,
            Terry
 

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old time
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6,658 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Imported post

Hi

Cheers Terry for looking up and putting the info here.

Can i just STATE that we do not carry more than 12 people, this was just for a spacings for positioning of dive kit when parts of the boat was being refitted. We have got some rather large people that dive off our boat, so didn't want to have a limited area and crushing us little ones.


Yeah , us too have always got the MCA fast craft here at Dover, mca osprey, lovely boat, wish i could have it as a play toy. plus we have had the pleasure of RoW onboard.

Being the son of a ex coastguard ( 28 years ) and myself an ex Aux Cg, i don't think i would go out and break maritime law intentionally.

Cheers for your imput .

Andy.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ](b) any vessel wholly owned by or on behalf of a members' club formed for the purpose of sport or pleasure which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or pleasure of members of that club or their immediate family, and for the use of which any charges levied are paid into club funds and applied for the general use of the club; and

© in the case of any vessel referred to in paragraphs (a) or (b) above no other payments are made by or on behalf of users of the vessel, other than by the owner.

This is a bit of a wierd one,,,,,, don't you think
 
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