YD Scuba Diving Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Just not enough dive time.
Joined
·
9,135 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I dont wish to slag off another diver and God knows I am not that experienced but a new thread has opened on Handbag.net where a newbie (23 dives) Bsac Club diver wants to know if its OK to strap-on another cylinder to his BCD and dive twinned up? Am I being over protective or does it seem that he's running before walking?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
947 Posts
Imported post

Looks like he needs setting straight on a few things.


(Edited by Mark at 12:46 pm on Feb. 21, 2003)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,914 Posts
Imported post

I trained a Greek lad to dive a couple of years ago, he hadn't even done any OW training dives before he was asking about trimix! FFS
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
Imported post

No Matt, I don't think you are, i thought it was way too quick myself. I've done around 450 dives and I'm only thinking about twins now (with LIDs coming up and a trip to Portland after that) and it will no doubt be a fairly steep learning curve again.

Yo have to question a lot of peoples motives for twinning/tech style diving - it looks and sound great but you have to understand that yes there are safety benefits but it's also easier to get yourself in world of crap due to the extended ranges and run times the gear will give you.

At 23 dives I wouldn't be anywhere near twins and I think a lot of this type of attitude is brought on by the type of talk we've all seen recently, esp on the other side where it seems just about anyone is a tech king. If a posting asks about whether, for example a fin is good then it get a handful of replies. Post about the length of your studding for your backplate however and the world and his wife comes out the woodwork. Same if anyone asks about what BC is good - get some wings is invariably said.

Just get on and do the simple stuff first and stop trying to run before you can walk

Hmmm - thats my rant over I'm going to lunch now ! :soapbox:

Cheers all
Paul

(Edited by jjflash at 1:51 pm on Feb. 21, 2003)


(Edited by jjflash at 1:52 pm on Feb. 21, 2003)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,793 Posts
Imported post

Hang on, chaps!

Is the guy thinking of doing deep/techy/complex dives?  Or is he just after redundancy?

If he's not using a pony, then is there really any problem with carrying on his current diving but with an extra 12 litres of air?  On balance, he'll be safer, surely?  Swapping regs is not difficult - I'd suggest it's a lot easier than buddy breathing when OOA.  An extra 12 is heavy, true, and he'll need to check his buoyancy, but overall, I'd suggest he's going to be safer, and less of a liability to his buddy.  Looks like he needs some to take some advice from his instructor on configuration, but I'm finding it hard to see a downside...

Any thoughts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
Imported post

quote from the guys post:
'I had assumed you would need a wing to dive with a
twinset and a different method of mounting the bottles. It would appear that diving with a twinset offers twice the saftey and extended time at the bottom so I thought I would try it. As I have 2 Octopus rigs and 2 12L bottles can I just fasten the 2 bottles to my buddy and off I go?'

As I read that he's not really sure as to why he wants twins - yep he's mentioned the safety side but how will he manage the his kit to GIVE him the safety. He then mentions the extended bottom time...

Maybe it's just me but he seems a bit undecided as to the whys and wherefore of the kit ....I duno, like Matt said I don't want to slag him 'cos he might be a brill diver but it all seems a bit 'I've seen this shiny new kit and I want it'

Ho hum
Paul
 

·
Just not enough dive time.
Joined
·
9,135 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Imported post

I'm all for the redundancy/greater safety aspect but he also mentions he has 23 dives to date. I think he needs to be advised to take it slow and safe and seek extra advice before 'buying and dying', a number of people have suggested that (including Bren) so I hope he heeds the help he's received. His post was on there a while before he got any response, I was concerned he'd just go do it.
Thanks guys.
Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,786 Posts
Imported post

Well you see I'm one of those people that doesn't see a problem with a new diver moving to twins or even starting with twins.. I see a twinset as the ultimate in safety, the top rung in redundancy, I see a wing and BP far superior to a baggy BC with a single 12-15 strapped to it flopping from side to side, a baggy BC which can then become a chest crushing restrictive BC once it's inflated near full.

I see too many new divers diving with no redundancy at all simply because this is how they are taught (my buddy is my redundancy right?) I then see divers bolting on a lopsided pony bottle to add a certain amount of 'real' redundancy that a twinset would of superceded from the outset, and they do this only because they started off with a single cylinder and BC in the first place, it becomes and addon to an inferior system dictated by the wrong initial choice of equipment in the first place... (How do I know this? cos I was one of them)

Imagine a world where a new diver is taken into the pool and handed a harness/bp and wing with say twin sevens bolted to it, imagine he's then taught all about redundancy, he's taught what to do in the case of first or second stage failures, imagine he's taught to shutdown that freeflow thats about to end his dive or even worse empty his cylinder, imagine after he becomes used to the balance of the twins, used to the non constrictive harness instead of the chest crushing balloons of a BC, imagine after he had gotten used to the perfect horizontal trim and total redundancy that his rig allows him and then imagine that someone suggested that he give it all away and go diving with a big fluffy loose jacket with pockets that he could strap a single cylinder to, which if required would allow him the option to bolt on a lop sided pony bottle for his limited redundancy and then watch him laugh in your face.

Why would anyone think that twins are limited to those with masses of experience and should not be used by novices? I suggest that every diver especially new ones should be given the benefit of maximum comfort and safety, suggesting that they will then dive longer and deeper therefore shouldn't be allowed is not really an argument as every single diver is taught how to conduct a no stage stop dive irrelevant of how much gas they may carry.

regards
Dave
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,793 Posts
Imported post

I'll buy that.

I think the cost of the gear would be prohibitive, but that doesn't preclude manufacturers coming up with an all-in-one twin in the future.
 

·
A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
Joined
·
15,343 Posts
Imported post

I sort of went to twins streight away.

Thing is I did about 75 dives in warm clear blue stuff over about 7 years worth of holidays and then I thaught lets give the UK a go. So after about 5 dives in the UK I thaught blimey this is dangerous stuff and I went twin independent cylinders on K valves. Then after about twenty more dives I whent to a full manifolded twin set.  

Now bearing in mind I hadent gone below 30m yet in the UK. It was purley a safety issue. I used to suck air like Gary Glitter at Toys Are Us so I only could manage 30mins on a 20m + dive on a single 12 so I used to dive 15's. The twin set allowed me to go right up to my no decompresion limit and still have loads of air in reserve.

I dive singles overseas but these days ONLY with a pony as back up. If I am doing any thing below 30m I still insist on a twin set even if that meens twin independents.

I have said it before, I see the in litigatious future of diveing, training being carried out with manifolded twin sets. Even if they are twin 7's they are safer than a single any day.

I didnt see the thread but If I replyed to the lad I would aplaud his choice for safety but warn against pushing the envalope of a twin set before he has had the necessary training and experiance.


Mark Chase
 

·
A Big Member
Joined
·
132 Posts
Imported post

I agree with Dave and Mark (and anyone else who thinks its not a bad idea!)
When i learnt to dive (1989) there wasn't much/ any focus on redundancy, even an octopus was greeted with an 'ooh what’s that?' at our club, nobody had one, your only redundant item was your buddy, in an OOA situation buddy breathing was your only option (we practised this a lot!)

After about four years I dived very little and climbed much more (redundancy in anchoring systems is practised by all but the foolish) Last year I got back into diving in a big way and was really surprised to see how much the redundancy idea was being talked about on the net and in magazines, I was quite surprised when at my new club I mentioned I was going to replace my 10 year old stab jacket with a wing and BP most people looked at me as if I was talking a foreign language.

I think it would be great for beginners to be able to start off with wing/bp/twins.
Just because the stab is seen as the norm now doesn’t mean it can’t be replaced in the future. (I remember my first dives using a horsecollar) you don’t see many people using those anymore now do you.
Imagine having the thirds rule and shutdowns as part of your early training, it might take a bit longer but you would be a much safer diver.

paul

<dons flame retardant suit and prepares for backlash>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
947 Posts
Imported post

Me too. I did about 50 warm water dives before venturing into UK waters. My 1st UK dive was my 1st twinset dive and also my dry suit course. After doing a lot of research on the net twins seemed like the obvious choice for UK diving so I went straight for them. I've not looked back


Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
202 Posts
Imported post

I agree with Dave and others that twins/wings are overall a better set up - my only concerns and the key part I picked up in Dave's post was the word 'training'. Yep certainly possible to teach from scratch on twins and why not ? - same goes for CCR arguement as the OC skills are in the main non transferrable. Get good advice and training is the key - as always ?!

Dive safe all
Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,342 Posts
I decided to move to twin 12ltrs after 30 dives my primary reason was I knew I would start the gradual progression down the tech route and I would like the extra redundency but what made it crystal clear to me was that after a free flow at stoney in feb at 36m, the first stage had completely frozen up that if shit hits the fan you better be prepared now I dont want to be asked why I was 36m after 30 dives but a lot of experienced was gained it shook me up so now I practise shut downs at least three times on a dive descending, ascending and when swimming through something. Newbies on twins great idea in the UK after they have dived a few times and are keen to try new kit get them on twin 232 7ltrs almost a 15 but a little safer and a lot ligher than twin 12ltr
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top