[Finless]

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A Divernet debate got me thinking about GUE/DIR and the one piece harness question. There are several issues on this subject bit I am interested in the failure rate of the standard BCD/wing harnes due the fast releast clips.

Pls note - knowing of a failure means YOU personally know/know of someone this happened to.

 

[Finless]

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Don't be mean - if you had a failure please give us some details about it.

 

[daz]

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Nope sorry, never personally experienced one or seen one first hand.

I do use a one piece harness because I do not find it a chore but it is possible to make a one piece harness with one arm hole extra long and the slack is held together by a quick release clip.  Even if the clip gives way it is only going to make it loose on one side.

Now let me just complicate this further...  Anyone who has experienced or seen one of these failures, did it happen in water or on land/boat.

Daz

 

[Dominic]

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On land.
Extra-strong(!) AP Valves QR clip.
Swung my twinset (7s, ABS plate, and no lead, so really not a heavy load) up onto my shoulder.
Thanked God I had already got a grip on the other shoulder strap, as the whole fecking thing would've gone thunk into the tarmac if I hadn't, as the bloody thing fell apart. Staggered and wobbled around for a bit, got sorted, carried on.
Threw the harness it'd come with away, replaced it with a 1-piece, and wouldn't go back to a clip-containing harness for any reason. I don't have the slightest concern when picking up my kit now, even when it's steel bp and all lead bolted to it, as I know that if I'm capable of lifting it, the harness is more than capable of supporting it safely.
And no, it's not even slightly difficult to get out of a 1-piece. I can even manage it when I'm holding onto the RHIB with one hand and throwing up from seasickness. So there

 

[Finless]

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Quote[/b] (daz @ July 28 2003,13:51)]Now let me just complicate this further...  Anyone who has experienced or seen one of these failures, did it happen in water or on land/boat.

Daz

That's not a complication, that's a sensible question that is !!!

 

[Finless]

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Quote[/b] (Dominic @ July 28 2003,14:04)]On land.
Extra-strong(!) AP Valves QR clip.
Swung my twinset (7s, ABS plate, and no lead, so really not a heavy load) up onto my shoulder.
Thanked God I had already got a grip on the other shoulder strap, as the whole fecking thing would've gone thunk into the tarmac if I hadn't, as the bloody thing fell apart. Staggered and wobbled around for a bit, got sorted, carried on.
Threw the harness it'd come with away, replaced it with a 1-piece, and wouldn't go back to a clip-containing harness for any reason. I don't have the slightest concern when picking up my kit now, even when it's steel bp and all lead bolted to it, as I know that if I'm capable of lifting it, the harness is more than capable of supporting it safely.
And no, it's not even slightly difficult to get out of a 1-piece. I can even manage it when I'm holding onto the RHIB with one hand and throwing up from seasickness. So there

Dom,

Was that down to a clip failure under pressure or down to a misplaced grip/clip getting squashed in the process of getting the twins op onto/or whilst balanced on your shoulder enabling the clip to spring open "as is supposed to happen".

Apart, from the odd O ring (on shore) I've never had a failure or breakage yet during a dive (not counting leaky torches in this). I'm getting nervous as it must be my turn soon for something to happen. Why am I nervous ? Thats why I have redundancy and practise things.

Come on you breakdown if you think you're hard enough!!

 

[Dominic]

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Failure under pressure. It wasn't the squeeze-sides variety, it was the press-front type, so there's no way it got accidentally released.

It just plain broke under the strain of lifting my (relatively light) kit.

So how people with twin 12s (or bigger) and stages and scooters hanging off them can trust those bits of plastic, I really don't know

 

[daz]

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Quote[/b] (Finless @ July 28 2003,15:19)]

Quote[/b] (daz @ July 28 2003,13:51)]Now let me just complicate this further...  Anyone who has experienced or seen one of these failures, did it happen in water or on land/boat.

Daz

That's not a complication, that's a sensible question that is !!!

Glad you thought so and your other posts after alude to what I was getting at.

In water could be potentially dangerous,  on land it is at best an inconvenience, at worst damaged kit or minor injury to yourself.  It is unlikely in the extreme to cause a death unless your kit happens to land on the foot of the gorilla kitting up behind you.  

Still like Dom says one piece do work, well it works for me and him and I dare say a few others but if people prefer to use clips and there are times when it can make things a bit easier well <shrug> it's no big deal.

Daz

 

[Dr Stevil]

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Plus given that in water the strain on the straps is less due to position and the supportive effect of the  water its far more likely to happen on land

 

[722]

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Quote[/b] (Dominic @ July 28 2003,14:04)]Extra-strong(!) AP Valves QR clip.
Swung my twinset (7s, ABS plate, and no lead, so really not a heavy load) up onto my shoulder.

Dominic

What follows is pure speculation on my part.

These clips will have a breaking point. Your last post says the clip broke, rather than opened. It might be that your practice of 'swinging' your twinset on may have put a strain on the plastic that was way past the design strength. In other words you may have put it to a use it was not designed for.

If you had placed your twinset on a bench, put it on, tightened the staps and then take the weight off the bench, I doubt the clip would have broken. The act of swinging the rig onto your shoulder, one clip taking an instantaneous load greater than the weight of the rig, I'm not too surprised it broke.

As I said, speculation on my part, but I have seen many people shrug their gear on one shoulder. You've probably seen it too.

Adrian

 

[Dominic]

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Possible, but unlikely - because of the strain swinging the rig up could put on a clip, I held the webbing ABOVE the clip, and held the valve with the other hand as I got it started on it's way up - it didn't get the sudden jerk.
It actually failed when it was already on my shoulder.
But either way - I often have no other way of putting my rig on other than swinging it up in that fashion (and believe me, I do my best to avoid it, I'm prone to back ache), so an unbroken harness really is the only way to go.
I've no use for a piece of kit I can't trust not to break.

 

[722]

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Quote[/b] (Dominic @ July 28 2003,16:26)]It actually failed when it was already on my shoulder.

When it really matters as nothing else is supporting it.

Dominic, I just wanted to get the possibility of 'misuse' out of the way. I hope I have not cast nasturtiums on your integrity. You appear to care about you kit from what I have read over the past few months.

I daresay some diver's reported failures are due to inappropriate use.

Adrian

 

[Doug Parker]

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When i had a BCD, some big footed herbert stood on the waist band clip and bust it.  I only noticed it while kitting up on the boat and if it wasn't for excellent use of zip ties i wouldn't have dived.  Also on another occasion, my mates shoulder clip wouldn't stay in while he kitted up, we put it down to him being gloved and cackhanded, so somebody else pushed it in and said that it was secure.  While descending it popped out and would not stay in so we had to ascend, we made sure he got to the boat and then we done our dive.  He was still fuming when we got back into the boat.

 

[Tibbs]

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I've seen a fastex buckle snap when a diver stood up wearing twins and slings.

I had a Transpac II and the buckle on the right hand side would come unclipped on me whenever I reaches across. I always made sure it was clipped in properly, but I think it was as I reached across and it got caught in my drysuit. The last time it happened to me was on an ascent when I had 35 mins of stops to do and I wasn't best pleased...

Needless to say I use a one piece harness and won't go anywhere near fastex buckles!

Chris

 

[Gimbo]

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<font color='#0000FF'>With my Beauchat Masterlift the shoulder clip broke as I was doing the final checks before going over. I just tugged the shoulder strap to make sure it was tight when the clip broke. Since I've been weary with tightening the straps in the water to avoid a similar break. This 'event' proved to me how important checks & buddie checks are. I'm so glad it didn't happen in the water.

 

[Dominic]

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Quote[/b] ]I hope I have not cast nasturtiums on your integrity

It takes more than a maniac trying to cut off my goolies to inconvenience me!

 

[Mdemon]

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The question of continuous webbing versus adjustable harness has always surprised me.  It's not worth worrying about.

The stresses and strains required to break the buckles are seemingly great - it takes the swinging of a twinset (36Kg+ with additional forces added by the movement) to break one.  And that's the point - to break one - there will be two left, and you won't be falling out of the harness in a hurry with only one left!  As the point has been made, these large forces occur on land - I can't think of any situation where similar forces will occur underwater.  Still less likely would be the application of this force to all three clips at the same time.  It may be an embuggerance, but I find the risk of clips breaking not sufficient to stop me wearing an adjustable harness.

 

[Doug Parker]

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Yes Mdemon you're right about your kit but not mine.  I wouldn't contemplate jumping off a boat with twin 12s and a couple of stages clipped to my harness with plastic clips in it.  Most new 'techies' are using steel 7s that are so heavy that they put a huge strain on clips which is why they don't use stab jackets.  The Hogarthian harness is being used out of context, all the gear, silly little dives.  And it's supposed to be simple, rather than something like the Diverite abortion that has got more bits hanging off it, sewn into it, strapped to it than you need.  A bit of baler twine would be enough to hold 'a' cylinder on your back to do a 20 metre dive. I'll show you next time we dive together and you'll be so pissed off at the amount of money you spent on a stab when you could have bought a 2nd hand redwing for 50 quid and a ball of string.

 

[Mdemon]

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DIY wing?  Now there's a project!!!

 

[Dominic]

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Quote[/b] ]And that's the point - to break one - there will be two left, and you won't be falling out of the harness in a hurry with only one left!

That's assuming you've manage to get the harness on before a clip fails - it was sheer luck that I had already taken hold of my other strap before my clip gave way.
And if you don't think it presents much of a risk, ask yourself how happy you'd be holding your cylinders in the air and then dropping them valve-first to the ground. Cos that's what a clip failure can do...