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We all know why frog-kicking is good when we are anywhere near a silty bottom  and some people claim that frog-kicking helps them "look good while diving" ... - not convinced.

But does anyone actually have any evidence / data / facts that show that frog-kicking is worthwhile when swimming in free-water?

More and more people seem to be frog-kicking their way around and when asked why people are saying "cos it how techies dive" or "cos I`m practicing"

Does anyone know of any studies comparing air consumption or hydrodynamics that show that frog-kicks actually improve the non-confined-space / silty bottom diving experience??

Hope someone has got some real facts

Hugh
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (japandiver @ April 26 2004,11:22)]Does anyone know of any studies comparing air consumption or hydrodynamics that show that frog-kicks actually improve the non-confined-space / silty bottom diving experience??
<font color='#000080'>Hi

You have got to be kidding!!

Just follow a few flutter kicking divers in a silty area for a few minutes. (Actually you will only have a few minutes because you will soon lose them). I have seen people 3 metres off the bottom with Mares Avantis and still raising clouds of silt.

Correspondingly fin for a while in a silty area with a frog kick, turn 180 degrees and you will see that you can swim back in the same vis as before.

Some of the most energy hungry muscles in your body are your thigh muscles. Using a frog kick properly means you use less of your thigh and more of your calves, which are far less energy dependent. Less energy means less air consumption.

Why anyone would want to spend money on a study which is so obvious escapes me. Well actually it doesn't, the government I'm sure will be happy to throw a few hundred grand at it.

Kindest Regards

Andy
 

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Andy

The question was not about when near a silty bottom, but when away from it in open water.  Japandiver accepts the benefits of frogkicking for avoiding stirring up silt.

I do agree with you about the energy efficiency though - who needs a study when you can *feel* the benefits?  Seeing as speed is not of the essence for me when I dive finning in a way that moves me gently along without raising my breathing rate is key and frogkicking fulfill this requirement.

Lou
 

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<font color='#000080'>I'll test it! Give me more taxpayers money! Please!

Got to agree with WL on this one, it's obviously a better kick for silty bottoms, and I find it much more comfortable to go at the same speed frogging it than flutter kicking. I also find it keeps me much more stable in the water, flutter kicking tends to cause my body to roll from one side to the other as I'm going along, which is never a good thing, and it's enegery wasted. All the energy pushing me round isn't pushing me forward.

There are very few sites that have a bottom that is totally without some sort of particles on the bottom, and frog kicking is a benefit at almost any of these. No reason to flutter kick on any dive really, silt or no silt.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Just follow a few flutter kicking divers in a silty area for a few minutes. (Actually you will only have a few minutes because you will soon lose them). I have seen people 3 metres off the bottom with Mares Avantis and still raising clouds of silt.
Agreed. On saturday my buddies and I spent 20 minutes hovering off a platform at 6m in Vobster enjoying great viz until another bunch of divers thundered past pursued by a cloud of crap. Do these people never look behind them  


Fraser.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]oo was that me was it?
Nope. You got in after we got out, unless that was someone else with the big yellow box and "Beanie" written on the back  


Fraser.
 

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<font color='#8D38C9'>nope that was me then
I'm sure I'd of noticed if someone else was using my kit
 

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<font color='#8D38C9'>Have got agree with Lou. I can definatly feel the difference between the two different styles, so no need for a study. When I frog kick it requires no noticeable effort for me at all, but if I switch to flutter kick I only manage a few strokes before my legs say no! Frog kick all the way!!

Jen
 

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I've never flutter kicked. The guy who was showing me the delights of the pool during training always frogged. So I just thought it was the "done" thing and started it. One thing that really pi**es me off is when folk kick up crap like the wee guy from "Peanuts"

In fact, I'm not even going to call it the flutter any more! It's a "that wee guy from Peanuts kick". You know the one, Charlie Brown and Snoopies pal that always has the cloud of dust round him. Help me out here, what's his name?
Peter
 

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Discussion Starter #12
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Just to try and bring the subject back on track - does anyone have any hard data showing that frog-kicking is more efficient than an old-fashioned fin kick from the hips - a la BSAC training 15 years ago.

I completely agree that frog-kicks beat flutter kicks - but that`s not the question.

Simple scenario - you are diving on a wall swimming into a 0.5kt current. If we assume that air consumption is the easiest measure of efficiency, do you have better air consumption frogging or finning?
 

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<font color='#000080'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Simple scenario - you are diving on a wall swimming into a 0.5kt current. If we assume that air consumption is the easiest measure of efficiency, do you have better air consumption frogging or finning?
it's worth noting that the efficiency of different finning styles can change depending on the fins used. each type of fin is geared towards a particular style, so you could hardly have an objective study could you?

personally, with my cheap bog-standard plastic fins, i frog-kick all the way.  when using other fin styles abroad i found it much easier to flutter-kick.
 

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<font color='#000080'>I can't seem to frog kick with my force fins, it tends to push my rear up
 if any force fin users out there frog kick can you tell me how you do it.

Safe diving,
Steve.
 

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I remember doing the SAC bit of the Nitrox course which involved following someone at speed.  I was frogging, and forgot it was supposed to be raising my breathing rate!  I think the recovery phase makes it less stressful than the continuous push/pull of the "PigPen" (OK Pete?) and presumably forces you to take more advantage of the glide in between kicks.  The silt issue is a no-brainer - we've all seen the results.

Right, I've seen no data on what's more efficient.  However it would be easy to test in the same way that Diver tested fin thrust.  Tie a diver to a static object via a spring balance, get them to fin and read the results.  Alternate kick types.  Alternate fin types.  Repeat until diver bored.  Post results.  
So, Digger, you're a state scrounger with free access to a uni pool - when can we expect the results???
 

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<font color='#000080'>As with all complicated academic study, about sometime in 2007. I did have a debate with a girl in Skye who claimed to be able to frog kick in split fins, which I challegned her to do underwater. Mixed results to be honest. They work far better fluttering IMO, which was noticable when she was trying.

Frog kicks suit jetfin and similar single blade fins, the Mares Quattros do a very nice frog kick which I use on holiday, and especially when finning on my back with a group behind. It's very difficult to flutter kick backwards.
 

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I pretty much frog kick all the time as I find it a lot more comfortable and efficient than "thigh" finning. The quattros are well suited for this. Thigh finning is used (in my case) for fast response, covering long distances quickly or strong currents a.la the Brother islands.

I'm afraid I have no hard evidence of this, it's just the way it works for me.

HTH

Noel
 

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Discussion Starter #18
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Thanks for the input - it seems that we all just  frog, fin or flutter according to instincts. Nothing wrong with that but if I can get some bored buddies to help me out we might just do some tests to see how air consumption changes when frogging or finning.

I'm a long term jet-finned frogger - but I'm hard pressed to justify myself sometimes.

Hugh
 

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Not sure if covered finning styles but there was a study done by NY State University in Buffalo's Sport Science department a few years ago done on finning efficiency. The results of which basically said that all the manufacturers' spiel about fin x being better than fin y was essentially bollox. They took a group of people, put different fins on them and measured their O2 consumption to maintain a given speed and found that different fin brands and styles (e.g. splits, soft inserts like on Quattros, etc) made no difference, they all performed similarly.
 

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I once tried to do what I thought was a frog kick and got nowhere..........any videos of correct frog kicks?  I know it must be obvious but I didn't rate it.

Lyv
 
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