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Dunno really........ thinking about it
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Hi all,
I use independent 12s, mainly because I used them like this when I got the them, liked them and have not got round to buying a manifold. So far no problems. Have use manifolds in the past and apart from the lack of a convenient carrying handle  
 find no great difference.
I can see that there may be considerations regarding workload etc when narked but I use Cyklons - so one over each shoulder on a necklace removes confusion, I take about 70 bar at a time from each to keep balance. Shut downs, if I practised them, should be easier.

Any thoughts - am I missing something fundamental?

Cheers.
 

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Can't see anything wrong there.  i used indies for quite some time before i got a manifold and had no bother at all with them.  i used to breathe and change at 50 bar, which i thought was easier to remember than anything else!

hth
andy
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

Question: Whats the situation when air sharing with independents ?

Can you tell me exactly whats on each post and why?

I am curious as to how the second stages are configured on this type of config.

Kindest Regards

WL
 

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Dunno really........ thinking about it
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I usually use a long hose on the left post with a bit of bungy holding the surplus on to the tank. Left also supports BCD inflation.
Right post Reg plus suit inflation. Both posts have SPGs

In sharing I presume you offer the reg in use to the OOA diver just to get them up and running swapping to the long hose, if appropriate, when things have settled down a bit (sorry about the technical terminology).

Should work - haven't tried
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

If you use a long hose and a short necklaced backup on independents, how is the long hose reg positioned when you are breathing the backup? Is it clipped off somewhere or necklaced in the magic triangle area?

The point I want to explore is that you are swopping regs throughout the dive. At any point someone may need air and I wonder how it would work. The main point of the manifold is that you get all the benefits of independents with the isolator but none of the drawbacks which in my mind are the air sharing routines. The only cost is an extra failure point although this is extremely rare (ie 1 in a million!)

Kindest Regards

WL

PS If you've never tried it Richie, how do you know its going to work for you OR your buddy ?
 

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Dunno really........ thinking about it
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
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WL,
At present both sit on a necklace - a fine stretchy bungey thing which, now I think a bit more may not be the easiest and slickest  device to detach a second stage from. I should  look at an alternative that clips rather than necklacings the regs. This would need position for easy swapping but allow for more rapid sharing.

If anyone has any suggestions as to the type of clip etc I would appreciate it.

I know it works for me but I can be somewhat lax when it comes to the buddy thing (please no more discussion). But when I sort this out I should be a more acceptable  to the world at large 



Where are you in the Diver pics - I see no smiley green
faces??
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Richie @ May 27 2003,08:49)]Have use manifolds in the past and apart from the lack of a convenient carrying handle  
 find no great difference.
....

Any thoughts - am I missing something fundamental?

Cheers.
<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

I think you ARE missing something fundamental because if anything went tits up on a dive at the moment, you haven't thought about, practiced or become familiar with the procedure you will need to go through to ensure a safe exit for you and your buddy. The purpose of the long hose is to donate in an emergency. This may or may not be the hose you are breathing. How will your buddy know which one to go for? Does your buddy know what to go for? the one in your mouth or the one clipped off? Serious questions which need answers.

The reason why a manifold is better in my opinion is that you don't have to keep swapping regs throughout the dive and so you will always use the same method to donate air if required, and when practiced often making it a left brain motor response rather than a right brain problem solving response wasting time. I hope you'll consider that Richie.

In the Diver mag I'm in the picture where AndyG is assisting Howard with his backkick. It was my turn next. Bottom right corner I think, Yellow zip cover on drysuit. You can see my best side (back) when laid on the floor practicing kicks in another pic.

Hope that Helps

WL
 

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Dunno really........ thinking about it
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
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WL, thanks
Since starting this thread earlier today I have been thinking round the scenarios. Maybe our old enemy of complacency has set in a bit - I've donated in anger on a couple of occassions - real buddy breathing no occy or spare reg - and it worked. Maybe it won't next time around.
Time to revisit -
Cheers
 

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Nice one Richie.  I like the way that you had a think about your diving.  Can you imagine what they would have done to you on handbagnet??!!
 

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Richie,

I dive almost exactly the same config, including the long hose, but don't use the necklace yet.  I have drilled OOA using the long hose with my buddy and it works a treat.  I have also swapped gear with my buddy and seen what it's like from his point of view!  Again, works fine.  

I'm in no hurry to get a manifold, but have no great feelings either way.

Safety-wise I think the indies have it, but the difference is negligable.

I agree there is some effort involved in swapping the regs as you will have noticed, but it is not worth fussing over.  As far as there being a huge task load, I'm afraid is disagree with WL. Think - if I donate my primary, I still have to be sharp enough to locate and use the secondary.  Now, who's going to be more proficient, someone who swaps every 50 bar, or someone who only swaps when training or in an OOA situation?

Suck it and see!
 

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<font color='#000080'>Hi Richie,

when I dived indies I breathed 50bar between switches, with regard to the donation of aas I have had to do it twice in anger, once with a student and once with an experienced buddy well known to me, despite a thorough predive buddy check they both snatched the reg from my mouth

So plan it out for that scenario and any other outcome will be a bonus.

Safe diving,
Steve.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mdemon @ May 27 2003,22:00)]I agree there is some effort involved in swapping the regs as you will have noticed, but it is not worth fussing over.  As far as there being a huge task load, I'm afraid is disagree with WL. Think - if I donate my primary, I still have to be sharp enough to locate and use the secondary.  Now, who's going to be more proficient, someone who swaps every 50 bar, or someone who only swaps when training or in an OOA situation?

Suck it and see!
Hi

What I was exploring was the occasion when you have swapped regs through the dive and are currently breathing your secondary. Your primary is clipped off or necklaced or whatever.

Your buddy takes this from your mouth and then is in your face whilst you are locating your primary. You then have to do another reg swap to get to the most optimum config, your buddy on the primary and you on the secondary, all of this happening whilst neutrally buoyant. Just seems more complicated than it should be or have I misunderstood?

Kindest Regards

WL

PS A bemused WetLettuce wondering why everyone was taking so long to get kitted up. http://www.underwaterexplorers.co.uk/georgitsis/index79.html
 

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Dunno really........ thinking about it
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
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WL,
I see what you are saying but for the independent twinners there is no primary or secondary - just regs on tanks and by swapping maybe 6/7 times on a dive we're well used to it.

Still need to sort the clips - a wander out at lunchtime beckons I think.
 

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WL, I think Richie covered it - there's no primary or secondary as such.  You do have a point though, and that is that both hoses must be longs. If not, then there would be an extra reg swap.  Not particularly arduous, and the panic should be over by then (!), but an embuggerance nonetheless.

How did your course go?  And did the others speed up?!  FWIW, take a thermos next time - then you can have a brew while waiting for the numpties!
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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<font color='#000F22'>[QUOTE The reason why a manifold is better in my opinion is that you don't have to keep swapping regs throughout the dive and so you will always use the same method to donate air if required, and when practiced often making it a left brain motor response rather than a right brain problem solving response wasting time. I hope you'll consider that Richie.
]

I dive manifould twin set in the UK but I started out on independents. I still dive independants overseas. My deepest dive on a Manifolded set is 56m. I have done several 60mpluss dives all on independants and my deepest dive to 70m on independants. Obviously this was because I was abroad at the time.

I find little or no problem with diving independants and doing 50, 100, 100 bar swaps total three swaps in a loooong dive.

Donatoon of the long hose is not realy an issue. Only DIR teach grabing the reg from the divers mouth. I blelive most other agencies teach yellow octo in the triangle. I wouldent be diving with aDIR diver coz I am a stroke. (According to DIR)

Personaly I would hand off the long hose so I wouldent let the OOA buddy make the choice as to where to grab it from, but for the sake of discussion my long hose is on the left pillar as normal and the other reg is on a kneckless as usual. The long hose is cliped to my left nipple D ring by an open sided plastic C clip that relaease easily or will break easily in a panic. Its a double clip so if I break it I can always use the remaining top section.

God forbid the diver should catch me napping and grab the one on the kneckless, it is on light weight surgical tube so that will also release easily in a struggle. I would let him /her sort them selves then offer the comfort of the long hose for the remainder of the trip up.

Rocket science, it is not.

Using Indy's you use BOTH regs every dive so you are quickly awair of defects or service issues with the back up reg. You know that the back up reg works coz you used it within the last 15mins every dive. Indy's are a sound diving system with guarented redundancy if used corectly. I have never considered going back to independants overseas to be a chore or an increased risk. It just ment one more contentce gauge to moniter.


Mark Chase
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ May 28 2003,17:50)]Donatoon of the long hose is not realy an issue. Only DIR teach grabing the reg from the divers mouth. I blelive most other agencies teach yellow octo in the triangle. I wouldent be diving with aDIR diver coz I am a stroke. (According to DIR)
<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

Not true. DIR doesn't teach divers to grab the reg from the mouth. Donate from the mouth is what is 'taught'. One method for all occasions. Unlike independents, which is all I was saying.

Do you prefer the manifold or independents Mark?, and what points should Richie consider, that is the real question, not whether you consider yourself a stroke or not which is irrelevant in this thread (and most others)

Kindest Regards

WL

PS MDemon, the course went very well and there is a report in trip reports for your enjoyment
 

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<font color='#ADA96E'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ May 27 2003,18:50)]God forbid the diver should catch me napping and grab the one on the kneckless
I take it from your post that the necklaced reg is your primary (i.e. in your mouth) and that you stow the long hose 'octopuss' style.

Well, the DIR (since you mentioned it) reasoning on this is that an out of gas diver is more often than not going to take that reg from your mouth anyway, like it or not. After all that's the reg that they can find easiest. So it makes a great deal of sense (IMHO) to use the long hose as your primary and to donate from the mouth. By always donating from the mouth you also ensure that the out of gas diver is getting a working reg and gas that is breathable at the current depth.

Donating the long hose from the mouth becomes VERY instinctive when practiced a few times (S-Drills).

I'm sure you know all that (often repeated) stuff anyway and have your own solid theory on it, but you never know. I have to say that I find it a little strange that you agree that DIR has 'some' sound ideas but then use the long hose the way you do at the moment.

Regards,

Mark  


PS. I've changed my post colour...maybe I should change it back
 

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Hi guys, I dive indies too.
My solution to the problem of "short hose grab" for want of a better phrase, has been to use snoopy loops wrapped around the reg hose then clipped off to my right chest d-ring (no metal to metal connections).
The advantage i've found here is that when pulled firmly, the hose will run out thru the loop without too much resistance.
For me, this eliminates the paradox of clipping your buddys backup reg off in a manner which can prevent them using it.
I have both regs clipped off the same way (not at the same time ;)) and can access them very easily regardless of which reg im breathing off.
I do however take the point that if i'm on the short hose and an ooa bud takes the reg from my mouth we will have (want) to switch at some point.
I have deployed both hoses in practice and for real, and as long as this particular aspect of my setup has been discussed prior to the dive I wouldnt expect to encounter any further problems because of it.
From a failiure point aspect, indies are more safe than manifolded cylinders imo.
The same goes for those who cant reach thier vaves and havent inverted.
Aside from all that, have you seen some of the manifolds that people are diving with? £80 for a lump of beaver cast crap that I wouldnt use in the pool!

Regards, Stu.
 

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<font color='#000F22'>WL: I dont consider my self a stroke, DIR tell me I am a stroke but I dont consider my self one.

It IS relevent to the thread as the issue of hose donation came up and I was poniting out that most agencies train their divers to look to the triangle for the octopus. DIR do not.

Using ANY rig I will always try and hand over the long hose my self rather than have it taken from me by the other diver.

Mark

There is no primary reg when using indipendants they are both primary regs. I just stow them diferently. Long hose is in quick release plastic clip short hose is knecklessed, in such a way as a panacked diver can grap it and get it free with relative ease.

As for which system I prefer:

I prefer a manifold because for deep dives it has the potential safety advantage of using the gas in both tanks after a regulator failure and pillor isolation. It also has the maximum gas on offer for a buddy breathing diver sharing the kit.

That said a few points on Independants:

You can dive twin independants on a 20 -30m dive and run one tank down to 150 bar and the other down to 100.  Then get the 100 bar tank filled to 220 -250 and do the second dive having only paid for one fill instead of two and enter the water with a 220 bar tank and 150 reserve. (Note you can also do this on a Manifoled set by shutting the isolator but then you ARE on independants.

Independants are a good diciplin demanding time monitering and gas monitering. I kind of get a feel for dive time when diving independants for a few days.  I look down and what do you know, it's 50bar swap time.

Self contained narcosis check in the monitering and reg swaping

No more complaints from the gas fill man


No more striping the back plate for a fill

They are not bad at all in a lot of ways.

ATB

Mark Chase
 
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